skyblu 0 #151 December 11, 2003 QuoteBottom line - front risers do very little to get you back when you're downwind. They may help slightly, but generally just make you come down faster. But that would be good if you were being pushed backwards by the winds. (I'm gathering that is what happened here based on the previous posts) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #152 December 11, 2003 Quote> You made a solo jump while uncurrent, >The fact that I chose to freefly a student rig of which not one >person said not to freefly that particular rig? Just the fact that you do not know how to safely skydive with the equipment you jump with. . Since when did we start classifying a 2-way recurrency jump with an instructor as a SOLO? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #153 December 11, 2003 QuoteNow, can anyone competent answer my question, would front risering have got him back? One could argue competancy too. Maybe but it's a Manta, go fly one and you front riser the thing and see how long you can hold it. Spiraling a Manta gets painful because the lines are so long. After about 7 spirals it's easy to give up. Hard Sashays would be a good Idea to drop altitude but once again it's a Manta. One good way to drop altitude on a Manta is to grab one front riser with both hands and pull down as hard as you can. Then do it the other way and repeat until you're too tired to do it again. Weather conditions can have a large affect on dropping altutude as well. I test jumped 6 Manta's in a row. Since I knew the affects of the wind on the terrain I was jumping over, I played around quite a bit. On one jump, I hop -n- popped at 4500, then flew down to 3500. At that point I flew over to the hills and viola, I was up at 5000 feet. Back to the valley and I descended... I did that a few times then decided I better get on the ground. Mantas are very tiring canopies if you fly them aggressively... <== that sounds funny Ok.. now one thing I gotta mention and this is directed at funks. Some reason A premature deployment happened. With out seeing the rig, I won't pass judgement. Use that bit of experience to learn what to look for on a rig. If the rig is used for AFF, it should be able to handle being Upside down (meaning presented to the earth, it has nothing to do with flying on your head). However if it seems like it might be a bad idea to fly it upside down then it is a bad Idea. Hope this helps.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surf 0 #154 December 11, 2003 Well, since you asked so nicely:) 1)had I been in the air I would have known the winds aloft. otherwise I woundn't have jumped. 2)I would have probably experimented with front-risering unitl it became obvious that is wasn't helping. You did have the altitude to burn. 3)If Front risers didn't work, and I knew the winds were better lower I would have spiralled down to them and then back risered. So Funks, what were the winds aloft? Hookit I know what you mean, I've had to spiral that canopy down as well. Like doing pullups :) BillVon, thanks for the response. and if you're not competent, I don't know who is :) "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #155 December 11, 2003 QuoteWell, since you asked so nicely:) 1)had I been in the air I would have known the winds aloft. otherwise I woundn't have jumped. Aloft? Ok. Does your term "Aloft" refer to uppers? Not sure what you are trying to say here but at this particular DZ the uppers are generally announced on every load to determine separation distance between groups. If they are not mentioned on a particular load then separation from the previous load is taken into consideration 3)If Front risers didn't work, and I knew the winds were better lower I would have spiralled down to them and then back risered. So Funks, what were the winds aloft? Once again, not sure what you mean by "Aloft" but if you are referring to the uppers, they were most likely announce on that particular load or on previous loads. Do I remember what they were on that particular day...no...Is there some point you are trying to make that i am missing? Hookit I know what you mean, I've had to spiral that canopy down as well. Like doing pullups :) Hey surf...spiraling would not be like doing pullups, front risering would be like doing pullups. BillVon, thanks for the response. and if you're not competent, I don't know who is :) see above for responses..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surf 0 #156 December 11, 2003 At my dz is a chart of wind speed and direction with respect to altitude, It's called winds aloft IIRC. I guess I just expected every DZ to have this. It's not updated for every load, but it is helpful to know what the winds are doing the the whole air column. QuoteHey surf...spiraling would not be like doing pullups, front risering would be like doing pullups. Like I said it's been some time since I was under canopy (I'm still grounded) but when I would spiral down I'd grab a single front riser and pull up. you could spiral by pulling a toggle, but would you lose as much altitude? "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #157 December 11, 2003 1)had I been in the air I would have known the winds aloft. otherwise I woundn't have jumped. --- Really? .. come on now.. Really 2)I would have probably experimented with front-risering unitl it became obvious that is wasn't helping. You did have the altitude to burn. --You mention probably. Well you probably would have. 3)If Front risers didn't work, and I knew the winds were better lower I would have spiralled down to them and then back risered. I don't know about this. Another thing, rear risering is really tough for long periods as well. I'd take a wild guess you'd find yourself landing off. If you haven't already you will one day so find a safe place to land and land there... alls well. So Funks, what were the winds aloft? --- Do you know what they were? Heck I get an Idea what they are but seriously I don't always know exactly what they are. sometimes we're just plain wrong about it and half the load either lands off or struggles to get back. Change the spot accordingly. Hookitt I know what you mean, I've had to spiral that canopy down as well. Like doing pullups :) -- Yep.. well at least risers are like doing pull ups Spiraling gets tiring but also creates alot of G's on a big parachute with long lines... Ask a tandem instructor. A suggestion for both of you is to go make a lot more jumps. One day you'll find yourself in a predicament and not act exactly how you think you will. It's ok to fuck up. Just learn from it and hopefully no one gets hurt in the process. A certain down winder on rollerblades comes to mind...My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surf 0 #158 December 11, 2003 Sorry I guess my posts made me sound sanctimonious, my apologies. Yes everyone lands off at one time or another. Yes I have too. It was my mistake, not my gears fault, not anyones fault but mine. I learned from it (and thats why I pay attention to the wind speeds now) Do tell about the rollerblades! going for a runway landing? "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #159 December 11, 2003 I'm still trying to figure out all this wonderful advice. You keep saying he should have spiralled. I'll ask again... how do you know that would have helped? From my understanding, he was downwind of the airport backing up. You suggest he should have used REAR risers after spiraling. Again, how would that have helped? Front risers maybe makes sense, but apparently doesn't work well. I dont think I'm capable of holding down both front risers on my PD150 for more than a few seconds, let alone a manta. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #160 December 11, 2003 Quote no offense but clearly you were not competent to handle the situation, as you handled it poorly IMHO. reply] This is still burning me. You are questioning my competency and you have 51 jumps all of which occured before 1998? You say you are still "grounded". My definition of grounded is something beyond your control not allowing you to jump...ie - an injury. Yours appears to be related to your wife not being happy with you wanting to get back into the sport. Call it nitpicking, but I am sorry, that is not being grounded. To make matters worse, you come out of nowhere and start attacking me personally (i consider my competency a personal attack) and then follow the post where you questioned my knowledge with a number of posts proving that your knowledge is basically obsolete....Sorry dude, but I have no problem being flamed, chastized, critiqued or whatever you want to call it by people that have an idea of what they are talking about. You on the otherhand obviously dont. I have been truly "grounded" for 5 months. You have been out of the sport for 5 years and one of your first appearances on this forum is to jump into this thread and start talking shit...next time, perhaps you should PM it, I would have shown you the same courtesy in return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Surf 0 #161 December 11, 2003 Sorry here are the assumptions I was making, probably some or all of them are bad. 1)his spot was fine for an opening at normal altitudes, he's just high. 2)the winds aloft (uppers) are less favorable (stronger or different in heading) than the winds down lower. All these questions have me worried I've been doing something wrong. My thinking was in this situation I would spiral down to the more favorable wind layer and then use rear risers to get to the DZ. QuoteI dont think I'm capable of holding down both front risers on my PD150 How much harder is it to pull on the front risers compared to holding a chin-up? If the canopy isn't spinning you're only holding up your own weight. Since we're getting off topic here I posted the question in Safety and training, to help me better understand what you're saying. Feel free to continue the discussion there, I don't want to hijack funks thread any more than I already have. "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Surf 0 #162 December 11, 2003 Quoteas you handled it poorly IMHO I M H O In My Humble Opinion If you don't like it, sorry. I never said I was competent to answer the question, thats why I asked in the first place. i do plan on skydiving again soon, and when I do if I ever find myself in this situation I'd like more options than just resigning myself to landing 2.5 miles out. Thats why I asked. Do you really think you handled the situation well? Nothing you'd change if you did it over again? not one thing, eh? QuoteThis is still burning me You seem to have anger issues, how sad for you. "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #163 December 11, 2003 funks... did you read his reply about sounding sanctimonius? Come on bro, rise above. I'm going to take a wild guess that you've learned a thing or two. I don't feel like point fingers or pointing out what I feel is obvious. I just read jmiracles sigline and I think it really applies here. "Mistakes are a fact of life. It is the response to error that counts." - Yolanda Cornelia "Nikki" Giovanni That speaks volumesMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #164 December 11, 2003 QuoteQuote If you don't like it, sorry. I never said I was competent to answer the question, thats why I asked in the first place. You didnt ask a question...you called me incompetent. i do plan on skydiving again soon, and when I do if I ever find myself in this situation I'd like more options than just resigning myself to landing 2.5 miles out. Thats why I asked. Do you really think you handled the situation well? Nothing you'd change if you did it over again? not one thing, eh? Dude, give it up please. Eh? Yes, I did handle the situation well. The one and only thing i would change is i would have jumped a different rig. But guess what, there is not one rig out there that can guarantee not having a premie. It just so happens my rig is out of date due to being grounded, i chose to rent a rig and take full responsibility for what happened. There is not one post of mine where i complain about the premie. It happened, I dealt with it. ***This is still burning me You seem to have anger issues, how sad for you. Anger issues? How sad for me? Please dude, stop trying so hard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #165 December 11, 2003 Quotefunks... did you read his reply about sounding sanctimonius? Come on bro, rise above. "Mistakes are a fact of life. It is the response to error that counts." - Yolanda Cornelia "Nikki" Giovanni That speaks volumes Your right...sorry dude...apologies extended... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakydiver 0 #166 December 11, 2003 Moderators out to lunch ?? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #167 December 11, 2003 I was wondering the same thing... Greenies? um... Greenies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakydiver 0 #168 December 11, 2003 Yah but would you spiral or not Nightingale Quit attacking me personally! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #169 December 11, 2003 I'd probably try to spiral and stay as close to the DZ as I could... however.... both DZs I jump at have safe areas to land out right near the DZ, and otherwise are surrounded by unsafe places to land, like lakes, freeways, and houses. Staying as close to the DZ as possible would be in my best interest, so I'd spiral, trying to stay put, or at least not go too far back. However, if there wasn't a safe landing area below or slightly behind me, I'd let the canopy fly and look for somewhere safe. Better to land WAY out somewhere nice, flat, and open, than land close to the DZ in trees or powerlines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #170 December 12, 2003 This is my whole point. I keep hearing everyone say spiraling will keep them close to the DZ. While spiraling, I guarantee you will be moving away from the DZ faster than you would be if you were holding into the wind. I can see that spiraling could be beneficial to reach lower winds more quickly, but under a manta, you're still going to be exposed to those uppers for quite a while during the spiral, moving away from the DZ faster than you'd be backing up if you held into the wind. If it was a smaller canopy, things might be different. I remember one jump I did... Left the plane at 13,000 feet, opened at 3500. Behind me was a tandem then a guy with a velocity doing a high pull. The velocity opened at 11,000 and BEAT ME TO THE GROUND. I bet I could have done some RW with him....me in freefall, him in a spiral. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnischalke 0 #171 December 12, 2003 First lets establish the descent rate of the canopy. We'll say it takes 90 seconds in full glide to descend 1,000 ft, which is approximately what we're lead to believe in this case. If the canopy has a forward speed (in relation to the ground) of 20 mph, it will travel 1/2 mile (2640 ft) in 90 seconds and descend, as we established, 1,000 ft. If you have uppers of 40 mph (58 ft per sec), for example, the canopy will travel backwards 1/2 mile in 1,000 ft. Lets assume the spiraling canopy is acting like a round and coming straight down. If you add a 58 fps wind, it will be traveling 58 fps in whatever direction the wind dictates. In a spiral, that canopy will be descending quite a bit faster than the full-glide canopy. Considering both canopies in the same 58 fps wind, if the spiraling canopy takes less than 45 seconds to descend 1,000 ft, it will have lost less ground to the wind than the canopy at full glide. How long does it take to spiral through 1,000 ft with the canopy/wingloading we're talking about? Having that information would provide you your answer. Personally, I would venture to guess that in a full spiral, the canopy would take about 1/4 the time as full glide (say 23 seconds) to descend 1,000 ft. If that were true, the canopy would lose half the ground of the canopy in full flight. Again, if my guess is wrong and it descended 1,000 in say 50 seconds, he'd be moving farther away from his intended target. None of this would be even a discussion, had Funks not grabbed a student Telesis with exposed bridal and tried to sit-fly it. Which leads me to something else: I don't care if I am about to jump with Olav, Dave Brown, Brian Germain or Jesus "Headdown" Christ, himself; I wouldn't jump with any of them if they couldn't fly their belly first and foremost. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyflyerbritany 0 #172 December 12, 2003 I have not read this entire thing but what I have read I feel that you are selfish. The reaso I say this is because if you had been alone I am sure someone would have come. I know that every dz I have been to when someone landed off there would be someone to go and get them if not a friend that was there watching or jumping or someone else on the Dz would come. I just think that you need to realize that someone is better than no one. Sorry to be rude but that is just what I have gathered reading this never ending thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #173 December 12, 2003 Quote Aloft? Ok. Does your term "Aloft" refer to uppers? Aloft adv. high up; upwards. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redtwiga 0 #174 December 12, 2003 You mentioned that we announce "winds aloft" on every jump run to determine separation time. What's announced is groundspeed. If you really thought the winds aloft were 90, or 110, or whatever WAS announced, maybe you shouldn't have exited. Edited to add: The winds at 3k, 9k and 12k are posted for am and pm, above manifest, just like at most dzs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #175 December 13, 2003 kinda weirdness..... this is a convenient way to ban demons in the year of 2003?? racking my brains a little bit... dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 7 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Surf 0 #161 December 11, 2003 Sorry here are the assumptions I was making, probably some or all of them are bad. 1)his spot was fine for an opening at normal altitudes, he's just high. 2)the winds aloft (uppers) are less favorable (stronger or different in heading) than the winds down lower. All these questions have me worried I've been doing something wrong. My thinking was in this situation I would spiral down to the more favorable wind layer and then use rear risers to get to the DZ. QuoteI dont think I'm capable of holding down both front risers on my PD150 How much harder is it to pull on the front risers compared to holding a chin-up? If the canopy isn't spinning you're only holding up your own weight. Since we're getting off topic here I posted the question in Safety and training, to help me better understand what you're saying. Feel free to continue the discussion there, I don't want to hijack funks thread any more than I already have. "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surf 0 #162 December 11, 2003 Quoteas you handled it poorly IMHO I M H O In My Humble Opinion If you don't like it, sorry. I never said I was competent to answer the question, thats why I asked in the first place. i do plan on skydiving again soon, and when I do if I ever find myself in this situation I'd like more options than just resigning myself to landing 2.5 miles out. Thats why I asked. Do you really think you handled the situation well? Nothing you'd change if you did it over again? not one thing, eh? QuoteThis is still burning me You seem to have anger issues, how sad for you. "Nothing is written"- T.E. Lawrence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #163 December 11, 2003 funks... did you read his reply about sounding sanctimonius? Come on bro, rise above. I'm going to take a wild guess that you've learned a thing or two. I don't feel like point fingers or pointing out what I feel is obvious. I just read jmiracles sigline and I think it really applies here. "Mistakes are a fact of life. It is the response to error that counts." - Yolanda Cornelia "Nikki" Giovanni That speaks volumesMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #164 December 11, 2003 QuoteQuote If you don't like it, sorry. I never said I was competent to answer the question, thats why I asked in the first place. You didnt ask a question...you called me incompetent. i do plan on skydiving again soon, and when I do if I ever find myself in this situation I'd like more options than just resigning myself to landing 2.5 miles out. Thats why I asked. Do you really think you handled the situation well? Nothing you'd change if you did it over again? not one thing, eh? Dude, give it up please. Eh? Yes, I did handle the situation well. The one and only thing i would change is i would have jumped a different rig. But guess what, there is not one rig out there that can guarantee not having a premie. It just so happens my rig is out of date due to being grounded, i chose to rent a rig and take full responsibility for what happened. There is not one post of mine where i complain about the premie. It happened, I dealt with it. ***This is still burning me You seem to have anger issues, how sad for you. Anger issues? How sad for me? Please dude, stop trying so hard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #165 December 11, 2003 Quotefunks... did you read his reply about sounding sanctimonius? Come on bro, rise above. "Mistakes are a fact of life. It is the response to error that counts." - Yolanda Cornelia "Nikki" Giovanni That speaks volumes Your right...sorry dude...apologies extended... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #166 December 11, 2003 Moderators out to lunch ?? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #167 December 11, 2003 I was wondering the same thing... Greenies? um... Greenies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #168 December 11, 2003 Yah but would you spiral or not Nightingale Quit attacking me personally! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #169 December 11, 2003 I'd probably try to spiral and stay as close to the DZ as I could... however.... both DZs I jump at have safe areas to land out right near the DZ, and otherwise are surrounded by unsafe places to land, like lakes, freeways, and houses. Staying as close to the DZ as possible would be in my best interest, so I'd spiral, trying to stay put, or at least not go too far back. However, if there wasn't a safe landing area below or slightly behind me, I'd let the canopy fly and look for somewhere safe. Better to land WAY out somewhere nice, flat, and open, than land close to the DZ in trees or powerlines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #170 December 12, 2003 This is my whole point. I keep hearing everyone say spiraling will keep them close to the DZ. While spiraling, I guarantee you will be moving away from the DZ faster than you would be if you were holding into the wind. I can see that spiraling could be beneficial to reach lower winds more quickly, but under a manta, you're still going to be exposed to those uppers for quite a while during the spiral, moving away from the DZ faster than you'd be backing up if you held into the wind. If it was a smaller canopy, things might be different. I remember one jump I did... Left the plane at 13,000 feet, opened at 3500. Behind me was a tandem then a guy with a velocity doing a high pull. The velocity opened at 11,000 and BEAT ME TO THE GROUND. I bet I could have done some RW with him....me in freefall, him in a spiral. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #171 December 12, 2003 First lets establish the descent rate of the canopy. We'll say it takes 90 seconds in full glide to descend 1,000 ft, which is approximately what we're lead to believe in this case. If the canopy has a forward speed (in relation to the ground) of 20 mph, it will travel 1/2 mile (2640 ft) in 90 seconds and descend, as we established, 1,000 ft. If you have uppers of 40 mph (58 ft per sec), for example, the canopy will travel backwards 1/2 mile in 1,000 ft. Lets assume the spiraling canopy is acting like a round and coming straight down. If you add a 58 fps wind, it will be traveling 58 fps in whatever direction the wind dictates. In a spiral, that canopy will be descending quite a bit faster than the full-glide canopy. Considering both canopies in the same 58 fps wind, if the spiraling canopy takes less than 45 seconds to descend 1,000 ft, it will have lost less ground to the wind than the canopy at full glide. How long does it take to spiral through 1,000 ft with the canopy/wingloading we're talking about? Having that information would provide you your answer. Personally, I would venture to guess that in a full spiral, the canopy would take about 1/4 the time as full glide (say 23 seconds) to descend 1,000 ft. If that were true, the canopy would lose half the ground of the canopy in full flight. Again, if my guess is wrong and it descended 1,000 in say 50 seconds, he'd be moving farther away from his intended target. None of this would be even a discussion, had Funks not grabbed a student Telesis with exposed bridal and tried to sit-fly it. Which leads me to something else: I don't care if I am about to jump with Olav, Dave Brown, Brian Germain or Jesus "Headdown" Christ, himself; I wouldn't jump with any of them if they couldn't fly their belly first and foremost. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflyerbritany 0 #172 December 12, 2003 I have not read this entire thing but what I have read I feel that you are selfish. The reaso I say this is because if you had been alone I am sure someone would have come. I know that every dz I have been to when someone landed off there would be someone to go and get them if not a friend that was there watching or jumping or someone else on the Dz would come. I just think that you need to realize that someone is better than no one. Sorry to be rude but that is just what I have gathered reading this never ending thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #173 December 12, 2003 Quote Aloft? Ok. Does your term "Aloft" refer to uppers? Aloft adv. high up; upwards. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redtwiga 0 #174 December 12, 2003 You mentioned that we announce "winds aloft" on every jump run to determine separation time. What's announced is groundspeed. If you really thought the winds aloft were 90, or 110, or whatever WAS announced, maybe you shouldn't have exited. Edited to add: The winds at 3k, 9k and 12k are posted for am and pm, above manifest, just like at most dzs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #175 December 13, 2003 kinda weirdness..... this is a convenient way to ban demons in the year of 2003?? racking my brains a little bit... dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
