Spotting

[BBKid 0]

Don't know about the US or anywhere else, but in the UK you have to be cleared to spot from at least 10,000ftAGL before you get your IC1 (Individual canopy 1 - kind of like the difference between clearing student status and actually getting your A in the US). At my DZ this is done out of a 182, whether anyone has asked for a correction when in the Let, I don't know. Mind you, the Let pilot (Jan de Hoog) is awesome.

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[aeromobile 0]

Quote

Quote

the average skydiver looking out the door of the A/C has no knowledge of what the winds aloft are or where 5/10ths after might be.

I agree, and heres how it works when I'm flying. I'll get the winds aloft and figure out the spot. The skydivers getting on board will ask where the spot is. I'll call the cut, and the they will check the spot before getting out. If they are shaking their head no, I try to figure out what happened. Did I enter the coordinates wrong or what?

This is based on most skydivers do not know the winds aloft, and I don't think you can spot if you don't know. If a person onboard knows the winds and wants to spot or if we have a student that needs the practice, they can spot.

• Quote

[AirCav 0]

Who is responsible for the exit point the pilot or jumper???......... BOTH!

I have flown jumpers for over thirty years, at many different DZ's, in almost every type of aircraft used, with and without GPS.

Sometimes I get corrections (but not very often.) They are usually as result of attempting to avoid cloud cover, not to get back on the jumprun.

Sometimes ( very seldom) I make go arounds due to the jumpers taking excessive time between groups. Please do no take more time than is necessary as it only ends up putting the rest of the load in jeopardy.

I do not mind corrections or go arounds if they are necessary for safety reasons.

It is my opinion that it is everyones responsibility to be safe.

Corrections: If the aircraft is not GPS equipped then corrections may be necessary on many jump runs. If The aircraft is GPS equipped then I know a very small number of jumpers that could spot the load with anywhere near the accuracy of the GPS.

On larger aircraft with GPS , landing OUT is not usually due to being off the jumprun but being long due to the length of time the jumpers take getting out.especially when there are many separate groups.

The last groups can still safely make the jump if they know they are a little long.Take a look! If there is no hope of getting back, ask for a go around. If your just slightly long ,plan on pulling a few hundred feet higher. I have seen some not make it back because they smoked it down to 2000 FT and then want to blame the pilot for a bad spot.(even though the video guy with the tandem made it back and exited later, (Not much awareness there)

The type of aircraft being used, the experience( or quality) of the pilot, the experience (or quality) of the jumper, the size of the dropzone and it's layout, are all huge variables when discussing spotting.

Without considering all of these variables it is difficult, if not impossible to decide in the forum. (although there is some good food for thought here.)

The pilot and the jumper are both responsible for keeping the sport safe. Pilots and jumpers both should know their limitations and abilities. Work together.

GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Quote

Well, when I train a new pilot to spot an otter we do happen to go over winds aloft

OK, but do you calculate them to locate the geographical refrence point , ie: the "spot" on the map/ground where the first jumper(s) should exit the A/C? This in turn means you as a pilot must fly over said geographical reference point or "spot" and the jumper can make any corrections left /right and then he exits when he is exactly over said "spot". That is true spotting.

Yes, that is what I'm talking about. THE SPOT. But it isn't just one spot that civilians use. We have to draw a spotting LINE. And in my case, a spotting arc. So, it's much more than just one geographical point you have in civilian spotting. I guess that's why some of the PJ's had me flying them in Monterey Years ago and the CO went off on a Herc crew that put them off their target. Saying how this civilian pilot with just a handheld was able to put them on THE SPOT every time.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[nbblood 0]

Ok, I'll throw my .02 in. I have only 225 or so jumps, but I feel comfortable spotting. As far as some of the comments that DZs aren't teaching spotting, I did AFF at the Ranch in New York. It's been a couple years, but when I was there, students were required to calculate winds aloft and determine the spot before every jump. Also, before graduation I was required to spot at least one jump. However, by no means was I very good at it when I graduated and I knew it. Therefore, I took it upon myself to learn more. When I moved to another DZ, anytime I found myself near the door, I had my eyes out the door, even if someone else was spotting the load. I wanted to see what they saw. And I asked questions to learn what they were looking at, how they were determining the visual reference. I learned a lot like that. On a particular jump, on a somewhat windy day, a so-called "experienced" jumper was spotting the load and my group was first out. I also was spotting as it's my jump, my responsibility. He called cut and told me to get out and I could see it was way too short. I said no and waited approx 30 more sec (with the whole plane yelling at me to get out). When I was finally comfortable we got out. My group barely made the DZ, everybody got out in 1 pass, everybody made the DZ easier than my group. We had words later because he felt I showed him up, but the DZO backed me and I was right.

Now all that said, some things I've learned:

1. Calculating the winds and determining the spot is only part of the solution.

2. You've got to determine no earlier and no later than exit points and be able to identify those points on the ground.

3. If you get the chance to watch a load, that information is very valuable. Ask the person that spotted the load exactly where they got out. Watch to see how the load lands. Could you get out earlier? Does it need to go deeper?

4. Have consideration for others in the plane, if you're first out don't wait for the "perfect spot" Get out when you know you can get back, leave some time for the others to get out in time to make it back.

5. Know the organization of the load and the people on the load. If there's only 3 groups you can take it a little deeper than if there's 7 solos in the back of the order.

6. It takes "time in the door" learning to see the right picture. Get in the door, have somebody talk you through spotting. Don't be afraid to ask questions, experienced jumpers love to help for the most part.

7. A skydiver has to be responsible to learn for themselves how to spot. Nobody is going to "make" them learn. What you learned in AFF (if anything) is not enough.

8. Some DZs routinely run downwind jump runs, which brings up a whole slew of spotting and load organization issues. Bottom line you've gotta get out earlier or someone's gonna get screwed.

9. If I'm in the back I'll always check the spot to see if I'm past the no later than exit point. If it's close and I'm still gonna get out I'll give a quick yell to anybody that might still be behind me.

I guess those are the major points I've learned. Again, I feel comfortable spotting the load, but by no means am I the "perfect" spotter. I'm always trying to learn. But I think it's the skydiver's responsibility for his/her jump to spot. I definitely think there's a difference between theory and what's actually happening out there. I haven't had trouble with pilots not wanting to do a go around, but I've heard of the problems others have stated.

I guess that's more than .02 worth, but I think we ought to put some learning points out there rather than just bitch. I'd be very interested with feedback from more experienced guys/gals too. Bottom line is I think each individual knows if they are or aren't comfortable spotting. If not, what are you waiting for?

Blues.
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Question for the drivers.Why does jump run have to be into the wind. If jump run was run crosswind on the upwind side of the landing area wouldn't it make things a little less complicated?You wouldn't have groups drifting over each other so exit timing could become a little more standardized ,and after opening you could head right for the landing area,and if your short you would make better penetration crabbing then you would flying directly into the wind. Am I missing something?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Yes, that is what I'm talking about

Kudos, Then you are the only civilian jump pilot that I know of that actually calculates, plots, and flys them and I have talked to a lot.

Quote

the CO went off on a Herc crew that put them off their target

That sounds like the jumpmasters fault and not the HERC crew. In Military airborne operations the Jumpmaster is the one responsible for the load. Just becasue the green light pops doesn''t mean people go. If he OKs it for jumpers to leave the A/C he is saying he has positively identified the HARP(HALO ops) and it is safe to exit. He is also the one responsible for calculating the winds and determining the HARP which is checked by another Jumpmaster on the ground before the pilot briefing. Some HERCs do have the capability to calculate the winds during ascent using the computer but a GOOD jumpmaster will just ask for the winds and re-calculate in the A/C. If the HARP has moved drasticaly he will inform the aircrew of the change. Ultimately, the Jumpmaster is responsible for everyone in his stick or pass. The pilot simply drives the plane to the geographical reference point and if he has no issues, turns the green light on to let the jumpmaster know they are close to the release point and it is safe to exit. Unlike civilian dropzones, if the jumpmaster doesn't like what he sees he can give corrections, do a second pass or abort. In this case people are more important than fuel.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Blue-Skies92629 0]

I fly camera and am ususally the first one out. I let the LO confirm the spot and do a quick check myself when I climb out. Then it's up to the LO to decide when to exit. If we're long I pull high.

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" -Groucho Marx-
"Tom flies like a rock" -Tom Carson-

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Question for the drivers.Why does jump run have to be into the wind. If jump run was run crosswind on the upwind side of the landing area wouldn't it make things a little less complicated?You wouldn't have groups drifting over each other so exit timing could become a little more standardized ,and after opening you could head right for the landing area,and if your short you would make better penetration crabbing then you would flying directly into the wind. Am I missing something?

Yes, actually I do tend to do a crosswind jump run until the winds really pick up on the ground and it is necessary to run it more into the winds than across them. It's situational.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Shady 0]

***In Military airborne operations the Jumpmaster is the one responsible for the load. Just becasue the green light pops doesn''t mean people go.

***The pilot simply drives the plane to the geographical reference point and if he has no issues, turns the green light on to let the jumpmaster know they are close to the release point and it is safe to exit.

Speaking as a Herc Navigator; i.e. "military spotter", the aircrew is ultimately responsible for the airdrops they make. If the crew throws personnel/equipment off of the DZ, they are the ones going to a "Bad Bomb Board". So it is in their interest to compute a good CARP/HARP (spot) and give accurate green and red light times. Jumpmaster directed drops (as oppose to crew directed) are the only drops where the JM has a say in where the jumpers jump. Before the flight, the JM and the Nav go over the Nav's CARP/HARP, and yes the Nav does give the JM winds up to altitude. The jump run is flown exactly as if the crew was directing the drop, but the JM is given a green light 1 min. prior to the Nav's HARP. The crew will and does take small corrections from the JM, but not if they think troopers are going to be thrown off the DZ. And at the Nav's red light, all jumping stops. If there are still jumpers in the back, the crew will do another jump run. This is not a simple process as the HARP is dynamic; we recompute it at altitude with the actual winds aloft and fly to this new HARP. But you are right, safety first. And in the end, the crew and the JM working together keep it safe.

Shady
HERC'S RULE

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

the aircrew is ultimately responsible for the airdrops they make.

I agree, both parties have a vested responsibility, my apologies if I implied otherwise. However, getting back to the reason I brought this up. Chris had an experience where the Col. in question seemed to feel that the aircrew (pilot) of a HERC was responsible for their landing off. If anything, he(Col.) should of also placed some of the blame on the Jumpmaster as well for he is the one who gave the jumpers the command to exit the A/C.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[chuteless 1]

SPOTTING is an art....good spotting can best be obtained by people who consider the ground winds, and recognize the winds aloft and their quick changes.

I have allowed guys to spot at some big air shows, and regretted it because they couldnt spot worth a damn under pressure, and yet they could spot at a DZ for a plain jump with no pressure.

SPOTTING really is an art. Jumpers using round caniopies were able to spot well, but when they switched to squares, they could fly anywhere, so didnt worry if the spot was accurate. The "wings" forgave bad spotting.

Bill Cole D-41

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Quote

the aircrew is ultimately responsible for the airdrops they make.

I agree, both parties have a vested responsibility, my apologies if I implied otherwise. However, getting back to the reason I brought this up. Chris had an experience where the Col. in question seemed to feel that the aircrew (pilot) of a HERC was responsible for their landing off. If anything, he(Col.) should of also placed some of the blame on the Jumpmaster as well for he is the one who gave the jumpers the command to exit the A/C.

Well, the actual original point was that Scott claimed that only military jumpers knew how to actually spot and that's not true. I actually do look at winds aloft and mentally go over freefall drift, canopy winds, canopy type penetration, obstacle clearance, traffic clearance and cutaway potential. This is what I teach to pilots I check out. But it's not as simple as just picking one spot. It's actually a whole line that I have to be aware of and THAT is NEVER taught in spotting a 182. That can only be learned by doing it for real in a Twin Otter, Skyvan, Casa. 20+ jumpers all doing 2 ways. See how far one spot over the ground gets yah. Not far.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

the actual original point was that Scott claimed that only military jumpers knew how to actually spot and that's not true.

My point was that the average SKYDIVER and MOST pilots don't know or do everything we've discussed in the last several posts. My hat is off to you for actually doing the things that were discussed. I don't know of ANY place, regardless of A/C type where students or UP jumpers are taught how to do what was discussed beyond ORIENTING themselves before leaving the A/C.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Ron 7]

Quote

This is based on most skydivers do not know the winds aloft, and I don't think you can spot if you don't know. If a person onboard knows the winds and wants to spot or if we have a student that needs the practice, they can spot.

I can spot without the winds aloft. I can spot BETTER with them, but I don't need them.

I can watch the drift of the plane while we climb and get all the info I need.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I can watch the drift of the plane while we climb and get all the info I need.

Riiiiiight. I assume you mean while your are piloting the plane and not sitting in the back of it as a passenger?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Ron 7]

Quote

Riiiiiight. I assume you mean while your are piloting the plane and not sitting in the back of it as a passenger?

I can do it as a passenger. I do have a pilots license and I can tell when the plane is getting pushed by the winds aloft. Acctually SEEING the amount of drift is much better than some numbers given to you by some WX station (That most times is not correct).

Plus 3,000 jumps of experience helps

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Riiiiiight. I assume you mean while your are piloting the plane and not sitting in the back of it as a passenger?

I can do it as a passenger. I do have a pilots license and I can tell when the plane is getting pushed by the winds aloft. Acctually SEEING the amount of drift is much better than some numbers given to you by some WX station (That most times is not correct).

Plus 3,000 jumps of experience helps

Well, there are jump planes in which it is not possible to see the ground while seated.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Well, there are jump planes in which it is not possible to see the ground while seated.

And there are planes you CAN see the ground.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334