3ringheathen 0 #1 January 23, 2004 I'm not going to get up on a soap box. I just thought I'd try to stimulate some discussion about spotting. The questions may or may not be loaded...I have my opinions on most of them, but I'd like others to throw in their .02 1) Who is responsible for where they exit an airplane? 1 a)Is there any conflict between theory and practice? 2) Regardless of how it happened, you find yourself under canopy on a bad spot. What's your game plan? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #2 January 23, 2004 Easy: 1) You are responsible for where you get out. Unless there is an emergency dictating immediate departure, you are fully capable of calling for a correction. Not sure which theory and practice you are refering to. If under a canopy under a bad spot, I hope you realized before you got under canopy, you should have. Start looking for your outs, regardless of the walk back. I have been off field by miles on cross countries when winds have dies down, gotten out of planes stupidly without looking where we were....don't matter. You look for the best option you have and deal with it.JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #3 January 23, 2004 QuoteEasy: 1) You are responsible for where you get out. Unless there is an emergency dictating immediate departure, you are fully capable of calling for a correction. Not sure which theory and practice you are refering to. At some large DZ's at the pilot will pretty well tell most people to screw themselves if they try and make a correction. They have GPS and ten thousand (literally) jump runs at that DZ. Just about anyone other than a long time instructor on the plane will get laughed at trying to make a correction. You might get away with calling for a go around on the end of a long, long run but then again you might not. Yes, you are responsible for your own spot but the idea of a 50 jump A license telling a good pilot he’s 5 degrees off ain’t gonna happen in some DZ’s."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #4 January 23, 2004 QuoteAt some large DZ's at the pilot will pretty well tell most people to screw themselves if they try and make a correction. They have GPS and ten thousand (literally) jump runs at that DZ. Just about anyone other than a long time instructor on the plane will get laughed at trying to make a correction. You might get away with calling for a go around on the end of a long, long run but then again you might not. Yes, you are responsible for your own spot but the idea of a 50 jump A license telling a good pilot he’s 5 degrees off ain’t gonna happen in some DZ’s. No... don't ever think that way... I'm a skydiver and a jump pilot... I use GPS, I fly perfect jump runs based on what i have seen the winds to be... With over 5000 jumps and twice as many jump runs flown, I know that the jumper exiting has more (current) knowledge and concern than I have. Feel free to take corrections/go-arounds... even with 30 something jumps. You know where you want to exit... if you don't... get with a more senior jumper (not the pilot) and determine where the correct exit point is... Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #5 January 23, 2004 remember... it's YOUR jump... the pilot will fly home... can you? If not, remember he is working to serve you, you are the customer. Don't ever let the pilot think he out ranks you (the customer). He is an employee of the company there to serve you. The jumper is what the DZ is all about.... never the other way around! Spot every load you are on... NEVER exit blindly... Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #6 January 23, 2004 sorry, I don't buy that. If I look out and the spot is wrong or there's traffic below then the pilot can bite me while we do a go around.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #7 January 23, 2004 1) You are. 1a) Yes, any time there is more than 1 person intending to exit the aircraft there will be conflict on the spot. Usually it's the people not spotting who have the most issues. 2) Getting back from a bad spot: Pull higher. If you've pulled at a normal deployment altitude, achieve maximum glide out of your canopy (loosen chest strap, release brakes, use a bit of rear riser). Usually if the spot is getting long the pilot gives a go around anyway. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #8 January 23, 2004 Same as... With the one addition that I'll make a note of the position of the sun and the wind direction before getting on the plane, such that If I do land off and there are no other indicators I'll know the wind direction from the position of the sun (or at least have an approximation of it). Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekendwonder 0 #9 January 23, 2004 1) You are. The pilot does his best to set the jump run, but ultimately, you are responsible regardless of where in the exit order you are. 1a) Not sure about "theory vs practice" 2) You should know BEFORE deployment if you have bad spot or not. Then, look for the safest out regardless of the walk and head for it. You should also know the wind direction before you board the plane to avoid a downwind/crosswind landing, even if you are landing off the DZ. Blues, Bob P. Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #10 January 23, 2004 Quote At some large DZ's at the pilot will pretty well tell most people to screw themselves if they try and make a correction. They have GPS and ten thousand (literally) jump runs at that DZ. Just about anyone other than a long time instructor on the plane will get laughed at trying to make a correction. You might get away with calling for a go around on the end of a long, long run but then again you might not. I've been to major DZs with pilots who have thousands of flights, and seen load after load get crappy spots, I mean really crappy. There was a thread recently where this was discussed. It bothers me greatly that the view now is that the pilot might not be interested in listening to the jumpers because the pilot has GPS. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivegirl 0 #11 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteAt some large DZ's at the pilot will pretty well tell most people to screw themselves if they try and make a correction. They have GPS and ten thousand (literally) jump runs at that DZ. Just about anyone other than a long time instructor on the plane will get laughed at trying to make a correction. You might get away with calling for a go around on the end of a long, long run but then again you might not. Yes, you are responsible for your own spot but the idea of a 50 jump A license telling a good pilot he’s 5 degrees off ain’t gonna happen in some DZ’s. Feel free to take corrections/go-arounds... even with 30 something jumps. You know where you want to exit... if you don't... get with a more senior jumper (not the pilot) and determine where the correct exit point is... I was told when I was at CSS not to even think about trying to make a correction or ask for a go-around. They said it would really piss off either the pilot or the owner.. i can't remember which. So basically everyone just went out the door like lemmings and hoped they could make it to the airport. Pink Mafia Sis #26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #12 January 23, 2004 Quoteremember... it's YOUR jump... the pilot will fly home... can you? If not, remember he is working to serve you, you are the customer. Don't ever let the pilot think he out ranks you (the customer). He is an employee of the company there to serve you. The jumper is what the DZ is all about.... never the other way around! Spot every load you are on... NEVER exit blindly... Chris Chris is right. As much as I'd like to always fly a perfect jumprun you do have the responsibility for looking down. Make sure what you are doing is done correctly but if you want a correction just signal for one. It's tough some times to see from the front of the Otter in the rear view mirrow so make sure you are making clear hand signals that aren't flashing by too fast. Rember, we could be looking at where the plane is going and not back you all the time. Also, when I fly I do hook pattern jumpruns. I will fly it so that during the turn it is still ok to exit. This freaks some people out. It is also taught at some DZs that if the plane is banking not to exit. This is good advice on some jumps planes as it could put you in close proximity to the tail. If the picture you are looking at doesn't look right ask someone if you can. If you can't and you don't wanna go then sit down, ride down, and we can talk about it. Given some circumstances I've known DZs to not charge you for the ride because you were acting in your best interest of safety. And when I call on the radio to manifest to tell them what happened they are usually pretty accomodating. Depends though. All you waisted was your time and at least you don't have to pack! We all hate packing!Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 January 23, 2004 That's too bad about CSS. I've never met a pilot that didn't take a correction. Maybe grumble, maybe point out it's a moot correction, but generally cool. With the canopies today, though, most minot corrections a new person will risk don't much matter. So unless the pilot is WAY off, it won't help much, but it won't hurt much either. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 13 #14 January 23, 2004 QuoteI was told when I was at CSS not to even think about trying to make a correction or ask for a go-around. They said it would really piss off either the pilot or the owner.. i can't remember which. Basically his philosophy is that everyone can get out safely on one pass and make it back to the dz. This is true because essentially what happens otherwise is that people that too long int he door and hose the people in the front of the plane. If you don't allow go arounds the people in the front tend to bitch alot and quicken things up QuoteSo basically everyone just went out the door like lemmings and hoped they could make it to the airport. Lemmings don't jump. This is documented on snopes.com but that site isn't up. QuoteApparently, their story about lemmings caused Disney a little embarrassment. They documented a swarm of lemmings in their suicidal rush into the sea. We are told, by biologists, that lemmings don't do this. They (lemmings, not biologists) do become over-populated, do migrate in huge swarms, and sometimes drown crossing streams. But, Disney cameramen admitted that they had to throw some lemmings off the cliff into the ocean, because they (the lemmings, not the cameramen) wouldn't jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #15 January 23, 2004 QuoteThat's too bad about CSS. I've never met a pilot that didn't take a correction. Maybe grumble, maybe point out it's a moot correction, but generally cool. Consider yourself lucky. There's a few DZs i've been to where the pilot doesn't care what you say. When the light is on, you go. You will not be given a go round. You either jump or land with the plane. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivegirl 0 #16 January 23, 2004 QuoteLemmings don't jump. This is documented on snopes.com but that site isn't up. QuoteApparently, their story about lemmings caused Disney a little embarrassment. They documented a swarm of lemmings in their suicidal rush into the sea. We are told, by biologists, that lemmings don't do this. They (lemmings, not biologists) do become over-populated, do migrate in huge swarms, and sometimes drown crossing streams. But, Disney cameramen admitted that they had to throw some lemmings off the cliff into the ocean, because they (the lemmings, not the cameramen) wouldn't jump. TouchePink Mafia Sis #26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #17 January 23, 2004 QuoteConsider yourself lucky. There's a few DZs i've been to where the pilot doesn't care what you say. When the light is on, you go. You will not be given a go round. You either jump or land with the plane. Fuck that, I wouldn't ever go back to that place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #18 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteEasy: 1) You are responsible for where you get out. Unless there is an emergency dictating immediate departure, you are fully capable of calling for a correction. Not sure which theory and practice you are refering to. At some large DZ's at the pilot will pretty well tell most people to screw themselves if they try and make a correction. They have GPS and ten thousand (literally) jump runs at that DZ. Just about anyone other than a long time instructor on the plane will get laughed at trying to make a correction. You might get away with calling for a go around on the end of a long, long run but then again you might not. Yes, you are responsible for your own spot but the idea of a 50 jump A license telling a good pilot he’s 5 degrees off ain’t gonna happen in some DZ’s. Hmm, I'm quoting myself.... My point here was directed toward the original question of "theory and practice". In theory the jumper is responsible for the spot and should signal corrections and the pilot should make them. In practice this is not always the case. Damn right I look down before I jump, but lets be honest in a big jump plane like an Otter at a large DZ with an experienced pilot, in reality when the green light is on get the hell out. Is this the way it should be? No. Is this the way it is sometimes. Yes."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #19 January 23, 2004 Easy answer first: 2) Save my ass. Harder answer: 1) there is very often a conflict between theory and practice. Lots of people have covered it already. All I'll add to that is there are big issues and small issues. A five degree correction, IMO, is a small issue, and I understand the debate over whether a pilot with zillions of jump runs experience would not interface properly with a newbie meatbomb, for any of a number of reasons (e.g. newbie is scared to ask the pilot for a correction). But sometimes it's a big issue: "where the hell is the airport?" or "wind board said 60 mph uppers; we're flying crosswind 3/4 mile downwind of where I want to get out!". These are the cases where I will try and stay in the plane, beg for a go-around (or a "renavigation", if you will), or even ride the plane down if there is a conflict. I try and determine my "spot concern level" using data on the ground and on the ride up before jump run, so I know how carefully I need to check the spot. And on a tangent, 182s can be poor rides up, but so many of these spotting issues go away. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 January 23, 2004 QuoteBasically his philosophy is that everyone can get out safely on one pass and make it back to the dz. This is true because essentially what happens otherwise is that people that too long int he door and hose the people in the front of the plane. If you don't allow go arounds the people in the front tend to bitch alot and quicken things up Yeah and I have landed off there SEVERAL times. Its a bullshit rule. Its MY ass on the line, not the damn pilots. I don't care how many hrs, or how many jumps the guy has...Its MY skydive not his. I have had a pilot in DeLand and I go around on this also...Simple fact if I don't like the spot I don't go...Land the damn plane with me in it..I'll just pack up and leave. You are an idiot to allow a DZO or pilot tell you what is safe with your ass."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 January 23, 2004 It does not matter much anyway, most folks that learn AFF could not spot the planet, much less the exit point. I would say maybe a handful of folks at most large DZ's know how to really spot."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kramer 0 #22 January 23, 2004 QuoteIt does not matter much anyway, most folks that learn AFF could not spot the planet, much less the exit point. Gotta agree with you there. I was never formally taught a damn thing about spotting during AFF. I was just told to stand away from the door...then when I heard the words "take your position in the door", get ready to jump. I could probably spot to save myself if I had to, just from the stuff I've read in books and what not...but I don't think many AFF students get real good training on spotting. -Kramer The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 January 23, 2004 QuoteGotta agree with you there. I was never formally taught a damn thing about spotting during AFF. I was just told to stand away from the door...then when I heard the words "take your position in the door", get ready to jump. I could probably spot to save myself if I had to, just from the stuff I've read in books and what not...but I don't think many AFF students get real good training on spotting. You were not in my spotting class at the hills? I thought you were? Kelly was, and so was Dagny"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteGotta agree with you there. I was never formally taught a damn thing about spotting during AFF. I was just told to stand away from the door...then when I heard the words "take your position in the door", get ready to jump. I could probably spot to save myself if I had to, just from the stuff I've read in books and what not...but I don't think many AFF students get real good training on spotting. You were not in my spotting class at the hills? I thought you were? Kelly was, and so was Dagny Spotting is a dyeing art and is becoming more and more so every year. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 13 #25 January 23, 2004 Well you're an idiot for presuming that i jump there anymore or that I agreed with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
