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billvon

Downsizing checklist (long)

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Thanks for posting this Bill. I really appreciate the time and info you collected to make this. Righ now im saving it to my HD so i can refer to it when i go to the DZ.

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

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I can grab on to the front riser on my student 240 canopy and I can barely move the thing! I can get the canopy to turn VERY slightly, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from that...??



You're supposed to learn that you're a wimp. Pull harder.

Watch out for bucking on the big student canopies when front-risering. Mmmmm.... bucking. I swear it has to do not just with how far you pull a riser / the risers in, but how smoove.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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-flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet (sure that won't stall my canopy!)

-flare turn at least 45 degrees (while landing?)

-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser (yah, that won't kill anybody)

-land with rear risers (no way!)
***
Do you really expect someone to try all of these things when they are just off student status and are involved in a demo program?

At 121 jumps I do "straight in" landings. At my skill level, I would never try any of these things.

Doing these manuvers requires a lot a training. Not everyone who is trying to get off that shitty 300 sq foot F-111 canopy is going to want to shell out $1,200 bucks for a canapy course that most DZ's don't even offer.

People downsize because they want a more agressive
canopy that is more fun to fly in the air. I'm not going to try any of these manuvers that you listed for a long long time!

I do agree that the flat turning is a good thing to practice but not 50 feet above the ground!

I don't think you are going to get a lot of people to demonstrate these manuvers, and yet they will still downsize.....

I know you are trying to help but most people can gauge their own skill level, and are grown adults who
are going to do their own thing......

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Not everyone who is trying to get off that shitty 300 sq foot F-111 canopy is going to want to shell out $1,200 bucks for a canapy course that most DZ's don't even offer.


$1200?!???

I'm doing a canopy control course with Scott Miller tomorrow. It will cost me $75 and five hop and pops. The dz I jump at doesn't offer a course, but Scott will come to any dz that asks him and put on a course.

IIRC the course that Team Extreme does in Perris is less than $300.

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Do you really expect someone to try all of these things when they are just off student status and are involved in a demo program?



They should start working on them, yes.

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At 121 jumps I do "straight in" landings. At my skill level, I would never try any of these things.



Then you shouldn't downsize.

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Doing these manuvers requires a lot a training. Not everyone who is trying to get off that shitty 300 sq foot F-111 canopy is going to want to shell out $1,200 bucks for a canapy course that most DZ's don't even offer.



Exactly, training. Training is required to safely downsize. $1200.00? Where did you get that number?

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People downsize because they want a more agressive
canopy that is more fun to fly in the air. I'm not going to try any of these manuvers that you listed for a long long time!



A more aggressive canoy requires more skill and experience to safely fly. Then I suggest you do not downsize for along time.

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I do agree that the flat turning is a good thing to practice but not 50 feet above the ground!



I would suggest perfecting the manuever with plenty of alititude and working down from there.

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I don't think you are going to get a lot of people to demonstrate these manuvers, and yet they will still downsize.....



Hence the large number of landing incidents.

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I know you are trying to help but most people can gauge their own skill level, and are grown adults who
are going to do their own thing......



Unfortunately, they can't. A someone with 3300 jumps and an Instructor, I find it difficult enough to judge someone's abilities, how can someone with 50 jumps do it accurately?

The combination of low jump numbers, self-evauluation of abilities, lack of training and experience, and small canopies is a recipe for an incident.

Derek

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Bill,

Great post.

The only suggestion I have in the double front riser approach material is to emphasize that you ALWAYS keep your toggles in your hands. It seems self evident, but ...well, we know that if you don't say it, someone will let go of the toggles.

You never drop toggles, grab front risers and then try to grab toggles again to land.
--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

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Do you really expect someone to try all of these things when they are just off student status and are involved in a demo program?

At 121 jumps I do "straight in" landings. At my skill level, I would never try any of these things.

Doing these manuvers requires a lot a training. Not everyone who is trying to get off that shitty 300 sq foot F-111 canopy is going to want to shell out $1,200 bucks for a canapy course that most DZ's don't even offer.

People downsize because they want a more agressive
canopy that is more fun to fly in the air. I'm not going to try any of these manuvers that you listed for a long long time!

I do agree that the flat turning is a good thing to practice but not 50 feet above the ground!

I don't think you are going to get a lot of people to demonstrate these manuvers, and yet they will still downsize.....

I know you are trying to help but most people can gauge their own skill level, and are grown adults who
are going to do their own thing......



Bill's checklist is entirely reasonable and a tangible measure of ability. The experienced jumpers on this site realize that, that's why people are backing him up. Don't you think that Bill, who has significantly more experience than you do, might just know what he's talking about?

If you survive in this sport long enough to have 500, or even 1,000 jumps I suspect that you'll look back on this post and wonder what you were thinking.

I could complete Bill's list on my last canopy. On my current canopy it's going to take a while, at least a few seasons I think, to complete the list again.

Stay safe.

-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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After reading other posts on flat turns I had already decided to make my next trip to the DZ nothing but hop and pops to practice canopy control and landings. My budget lets me get in three altitude jumps on rental gear a month which doesn't do much for my landings. This post came at just the right time and with the list of things to work on. No I won't be doing them at 50', this time anyway ;), but this will be a real learning day for me.

newsstand


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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thanks for this bill, it's very useful.

Just wondering, you said that guy Brett upsized to get more performance out of his canopy - was this because the lower wing loading meant he could be more experimental with his piloting, and get to learn more, because his mistakes weren't going to injure/kill him as they might have done on his other smaller canopy? I didn't quite get this bit.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

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The largest rental rig at my DZ with a BOC deployment system is a 210. I suspect that many of my skydiving peers have downsized from the big (ripcord) 285 and 230 student canopies for the purpose of learning the BOC deployment system rather than actualy wanting to downsize. I find myself in the same situation at the moment (AFF grad with 19 jumps), hoping to jump the 210 soon for the sake of getting off ripcords. Is this foolish ?

If I am currently unable to perform all the canopy tasks in Bill's list on the big 285 or 230, should I stay on these canopies for as long as it takes until I can ? ..even if that would mean remaining on a ripcord deployment system ?

We're often told to "ask your instructor";
The CI at my dropzone has already told me he would approve me doing my 20th jump on the 210 BOC system (preceded by a good briefing of course).

Is it important to learn the BOC deployment system? Is it less important than being able to perform all the tasks on Bill's list on huge student canopies?

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Bill's checklist is entirely reasonable and a tangible measure of ability. The experienced jumpers on this site realize that, that's why people are backing him up. Don't you think that Bill, who has significantly more experience than you do, might just know what he's talking about?

If you survive in this sport long enough to have 500, or even 1,000 jumps I suspect that you'll look back on this post and wonder what you were thinking.
***

I agree with the list. I wish I could do all these manuvers under my current canopy. I have no plans on downsizing in the near future until I feel confident.

My point was, most people don't want to learn to do all these manuvers before downsizing!

Just yesterday, I saw a guy downsize from a 280sq ft
to a 210 sq foot PD f-111 canopy! What happened?
Thats right! no 260 or 230 he skipped 2 sizes to the 210 canopy.

This demonstrates the problem! We all took the van out to the landing area to watch him land, we were all expecting him the bite it really bad.

Sure enough, he flared and butt-slid in pretty hard.
Not as bad as we expected but probably enough to scare him a little.

The biggest problem is we see these guys with 3000 jumps doing high performance landings. It's peer pressure to downsize. Also, it really sucks to be the last one down, being at 2000AGL watching the plane land and see everyone packing their chutes just as your landing.

I don't think there are any easy ways to solve this problem.

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Um, I don't know what happened the jumper you mention but I will say that at my drop zone we only have student 288 Mantas, one Call Ralph 210, and one Hornet 190 for rental. And the Hornet is the only one with a square reserve. People are all pushed onto that rig as soon as possible so they have a square reserve.

I wouldn't want to land one of the smaller round reserves that are in our student gear either.

Personally, I haven't jumped either one of them. I downsized from the Manta to my own Tri220. That way I pick the size and I have a square reserve. But not everyone has money to buy gear. Plus, I hear people all the time telling people to jump the 190, and these are very experienced skydivers giving their advice.

Gale
I'm drowning...so come inside
Welcome to my...dirty mind

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At 121 jumps I do "straight in" landings. At my skill level, I would never try any of these things.



I see from your profile you jump a Sabre 150, what wing loading are you putting on it?

Buzz
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

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> you said that guy Brett upsized to get more performance out of his
> canopy - was this because the lower wing loading meant he could be
> more experimental with his piloting . . .

No, he got more lift and had better control with a larger canopy. I believe he went from a Velocity sized 80ish to one sized 90ish; he was loading at around 2.1 to 1.

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Hornet 190
People are all pushed onto that rig as soon as possible so they have a square reserve.
***

Wow, I guess your stuck.

When I did my demo program, I had to demostrate that I could land in the pea-gravel or damn close at least 5 times in a row and they ALL HAD TO BE STAND UP LADINGS.

I started like this
PD 300
PD 280
PD 260
PD 230
PD 210 (This canopy had the hardest landings!)
Sabre 190 (Zero-P really helped!!)
Sabre 170
Sabre 150 (yah, I know I was pushing it!!:P)

I guess I was lucky that Will Renfoe (AAWest) had so many demo rigs! I thought that this was the norm. I guess not, I would be scared shitless to skip 2 sizes.

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Hornet 190
People are all pushed onto that rig as soon as possible so they have a square reserve.
***

Wow, I guess your stuck.

When I did my demo program, I had to demostrate that I could land in the pea-gravel or damn close at least 5 times in a row and they ALL HAD TO BE STAND UP LADINGS.

I started like this
PD 300
PD 280
PD 260
PD 230
PD 210 (This canopy had the hardest landings!)
Sabre 190 (Zero-P really helped!!)
Sabre 170
Sabre 150 (yah, I know I was pushing it!!:P)

I guess I was lucky that Will Renfoe (AAWest) had so many demo rigs! I thought that this was the norm. I guess not, I would be scared shitless to skip 2 sizes.



What was your progression through these canopies?

Buzz
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

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What was your progression through these canopies?
***

LOL! I'm embarassed to admit it! I'm looking at my logbook right now. I was on the Sabre 150 on my 43rd jump. I will say in retrospect it was a bit fast. Most of these demo jumps were spent on the Sabre 190 and 170.

The Sabre 170 was a lot like the Sabre190, just a bit more ground hungry and slightly faster.

The Sabre150 felt totally different. I really had to work on getting that smooth flare. I knew it was time to stop downsizing!

I have 82 jumps on the Sabre 150 now and I feel much more comfortable with it.

At my current wingloading 1.25, I really enjoy how responsive the 150 feels. I don't plan on downsizing for a couple hundred jumps.

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***
At 121 jumps I do "straight in" landings. At my skill level, I would never try any of these things.

***
I have 82 jumps on the Sabre 150 now and I feel much more comfortable with it.

At my current wingloading 1.25, I really enjoy how responsive the 150 feels. I don't plan on downsizing for a couple hundred jumps.



It's worrisome that you are comfortable with your 150, but you refuse to learn some of the techniques mentioned hear. What if you need to use them some day, but you've never tried them before?

I personally wish I had learned to land on rear risers before I actually had to do it. I'm out five months with a torn ACL right now, because I botched a rear riser landing after breaking a steering line on a hard opening.

I thought I knew how to fly my canopy (a 150 at 1.4wl). I was learning to swoop!!! I'm just glad that I was taught, that I don't know how to fly, with a twisted leg instead of with my life. Now I have a second chance to do it right.

Don't learn the way I did. Save yourself and learn to fly. And if you think you can fly, THINK AGAIN.
If we trained monkeys to pack, would you jump their pack jobs?

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I'm out five months with a torn ACL right now, because I botched a rear riser landing after breaking a steering line on a hard opening.



Off topic but interested to know why, if you had never done a rear riser landing and you had a canopy that could not flare, you did not chop this and go for silver?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

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At what point do you intend to begin working on Bill's list?

***

Very soon! The first thing I want to learn is the rear riser landing. That would really come in handy if I broke a stearing line. Then flat turning. Probably learn front riser landings last.

I have done some straight in aproaches with double front risers, I didn't really notice any speed increase.
I let go pretty high, around 100 feet.


I'm really nervous about the rear riser landings, I don't trust it. Any tips for landing with rear risers would be appreaciated, if it doesn't work, do you have any time to go for your toggles?

scott

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I would suggest you work on flat and braked turns first. They're much more likely to save your life than a rear riser landing.

But that's just me...

-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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