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jraf

Horror in the Parachutist

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You know, there is a problem with your statements. I understand that people break rues and laws all the time. I know that skydivers break BSR's all the time.

What's right is right if nobody does it and what's wrong is wrong if everybody does it.

IT seems that it would make sense to make a long-term change in the culture by letting newer jumpers know that there are rules set up for their safety. If the jumpers know, straight up, that they will have to demonstrate proficiency before downsizing - I mean this information is published and told to jumpers at the FJC - then the culture will have started.

These rules are, in my opinion, designed to help those that don't know better to know better.

Is that a bad thing?


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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WOW, what a lengthy topic!!! Seems as though there were several people getting irritated on here and some just trying to calm the instigator down! I for one appose the idea of regulating the footware of jumpers. That is all I have to say about that. LONG LIVE BAREFOOT JUMPING DAMMIT!!! Ohh, and I hook turn, too, sorry!


"Sure, those Golf Carts may look all warm and fuzzy, but they WILL take a chunk out of your ass!"

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LONG LIVE BAREFOOT JUMPING DAMMIT!!!



i second that motion emphatically.

leave me and my feet out of your regulations. start with the helmet and the head it's supposed to protect if you wanna regulate something.
namaste, motherfucker.

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Jumperconway,

I have sit back and watched this thread go and chose to stay out of this madness however,

please if you will state by BSR, FAR, or SIM reference where "as of now" or at anytime, an S&TA has authority to "prohibit" anyone from jumping and/or placing limits upon the equipment they may use who are licensed skydivers. i.e. non-student.

Thank you and Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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So that they get the education and training they need.



That's what ALL of this is about. Educating the people who are AFF students or low timers right now who will be tomorrows "old timers" and making it better for todays skydivers. It's not all about regulating, it is about training people and giving them the tools to save their own lives. As of right now there is no system in place to ensure people receive and can demonstrate proper canopy skills. Just because thats the way it's always been done is no excuse to not try and make it safer for everyone involved. It won't happen over night, there will be people who oppose it or blatantly find ways to get around it but they are just short changing themselves in the long run. So instead of screaming no more regulations, why not say no more canopy related injuries/deaths? You can't prevent either one of them from happening from time to time but you can reduce the incident of both if "we", the skydiving community , take responsibility for ourselves and the future of the sport.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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take responsibility for ourselves and the future of the sport.



if a dropzone is not currently taking a proactive stance in grounding jumpers who are flying nylon beyond they abilities what makes you think that they will be any more proactive in certifying canopy skills? because the uspa recommends it? uspa is a organization headed largely by dzo's for dz's.

and there is a flip side to the coin. if a dropzone's school (s&ta) becomes responsible for certifying that a jumper is qualified to jump a specifically sized canopy, what are the benefits of signing them off to a smaller piece of nylon? what s&ta in they right mind would sign anybody off on anything smaller?

what if dude hooks himself 2 feet under? is the s&ta in any way responsible? no? then what is the fucking point? and don't they have enough to be concerned with without needing to certify canopy flight? is manifest going to make everyone pop they container open before checking them in? who is going to administrate all of this?

right or wrong, good or bad: aint gonna happen. <- sky's prediction for the decade.

common sense and proactive participation. no one jumps in a vacuum.

take responsibility for ourselves and the future of the sport. don't expect that the uspa can or will.
namaste, motherfucker.

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Ridiculous idea, is it not?

No it is not a ridiculous idea, it is a great idea. If it is regulation that you fear, then you should want this, for if we do not regulate ourselves, the government (AKA the FAA) will do it for us. Trust me, that is the last option that you want.

Mike
S&TA



Exactly----Clap, clap, clap, clap...B|

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this is excerpt from kingkongs post:

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77% of the fatalities were students, 9% were intermediates, 13% were experts.

The biggest group of fatalities (33%) was in the category "fast canopies", followed by "other landing errors" at 19%. The third largest group (16%) was "no activation or too low activation of the main parachute



since the enumeration of experience and enumeration of circumstance are speaking to the same set.....

if 33% of fatalities were due to fast canopies, according to these numbers AT LEAST 11% of students were on fast canopies. that in itself leads me to question both the report and the assertion that more regulation will effect substantial change in canopy selection. i konw i should choose one or the other but ......
namaste, motherfucker.

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***common sense and proactive participation. no one jumps in a vacuum.***

Great. How?

It isn't being done now. What is your solution?

Once again, I hear a lot of nay sayers and reasons why they think it won't work. What I am not hearing is any alternative solutions.

Derek

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Seems to me that those that need this the most...will oppose it the most. But then thats just my perception and opinion. If a group of my peers felt that I was under a canopy that I didnt have the skill set to fly...I sure in the hell hope that they would take it upon themselves to intervene. Tis better to walk 5 miles than crawl 5 feet.
Then again as everyone knows...I am a rule player....and common sense...it just isnt common;)








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As other have probably noticed as well, there are many nay sayers who could probably benefit from a canopy class or 2. I can think of several people from this site who I've witnessed walking back from the desert dirty and bloody from nearly driving themselves into the ground on several occasions. No where did it say this was going to be an easy fix or that it was going to happen overnight. Nor did it give an all encompassing plan on how it would be carried out. That is what remains to be developed at this juncture. Complaining and pointing out short comings about something and not offering an alternate possible solution is not the right way to go about it. You're either part of the solution or part of the problem. Being a nay sayer is easy. Being one to step up or contribute to the challenge takes effort. Believing there is no way to prevent more people from dying under good canopies is not only a minority opinion it is also wrong and the numbers point to the evidence ( see Here. The majority of the people who have answered this thread are in agreement as well. We have a problem that needs to be addressed. There is no turn key instant gratification answer to this issue. It needs to be discussed and addressed before something is forced on the skydiving community. Better we make our own rules than someone else.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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...I sure in the hell hope that they would take it upon themselves to intervene...



That is the nut of why I am leary of new regulations. Positive peer pressure (which points someone in the right direction) will prevail over any new set of rules, IMHO.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

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Positive peer pressure (which points someone in the right direction) will prevail over any new set of rules, IMHO.



Mike, I would agree with you to a point. But I know for a fact that there are people who post here on this site who have had several people from their DZ, experienced people, tell them they needed to reevaluate their canopy flying and were told to fuck off. Peer pressure is no guarentee and least of all, it doesn't actually train and educate a person on what to do/not do under a canopy.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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So someone isn't gonna have the exact same attitude toward a regulation on the matter? If there's a regulation in place, why should I, as a concerned jumper, even comment on someone's canopy control issues?

Why can't someone just keep an A license and jump however and whatever they want just to say "fuck you" to the requirements?

This also totally doesn't address the guy with 10 years in the sport who cant fly for dick but has a d license. Hell, it goes out of it's way not to address it.

The closest I have come to dying under canopy was when a dude with 10 years in the sport did a 180 on final and ended up on a reverse heading from mine, 50 ft to my front. Funny part, he never even noticed me, even when he was facing me. So, again, what's the reg. do for this guy?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

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i dont have a cureall, derek. i simply think that putting a responsibility that should be shared by all of us on the ground and in the midst onto the shoulders of a relatively tiny amount of people who are necessarily a degree more seperated from the situation than we are is asking for failure.

you see a crater looking for coordinates, take the time to talk to them and inform the s&ta or dzo. follow through and be sure that the issue is handled. take the time and save a life. ** that is the alternative ** i think that embodies 'take responsibility for ourselves and our sport' better than 'lets add another layer of oversite and let them handle it'.

i am not a nay sayer. i think it is _OUR_ responsibility to nurture and instruct. and the bottom line is that canopy flight ability and evaluation of same is purely subjective and adding wingloading bsr and waiver procedure will be an administative nightmare. it just isn't going to happen. YOU do something NOW. and you. and you. and ME. no one jumps in a vacuum and there will always be somebody with more experience around. until that more experienced person makes it their responsibility even the proposed measures will fall flat but when that more experienced person does make it their business the problem is being addressed without regulation and policing.



i believe that i AM being part of the solution by pointing out the obvious and the need to do this thing in-house, grass-roots, up close and personal. i am not throwing shade on those who support bsr. i know they heart is in the right place and that they have the best interests of everyone in mind. i respect the time effort and consideration that went into that document. i just don't think it is practical, implementable or in the best interest of the skydiving community as a whole. for any one of these adverse characterizations to prove true spells the doom and failure of the bsr initiative, enacted or not. all three must be positive. thats not how i see it. if it is shown that i am mistaken it will be a happy day. but until then it is up to us to address the issue. now.


and damn. it would seem that this is an understandable issue that fosters constructive discussion without the cheap and easy shots that have seemed to have popped up here in the last couple posts. if someone is going to say anything, even indirectly, about my canopy flight practices or landings it should at least be someone who watches it/them. yeah, i think it is yours truly that scott and betsy are roasting. the last time the last time i checked with the people who ARE actually around to see me fly a canopy don't seem to agree. stick with what you know, not what you heard. pfft.
namaste, motherfucker.

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you see a crater looking for coordinates, take the time to talk to them and inform the s&ta or dzo. follow through and be sure that the issue is handled. take the time and save a life.



That is the current system. It isn't working.

We have put together what we think will make a difference. I haven't seen anyone put forth another solution.

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YOU do something NOW.



I did.

Derek

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Why can't someone just keep an A license and jump however and whatever they want just to say "fuck you" to the requirements?



Nothing, and many people say the same thing about getting anything other than an "A" becasue they feel the same way about the whole license progression program. This isn't an iron clad solution nor does it cover all aspects. The details need to be ironed out still. Why did we impliment a change to the license requirements? It was determined to be outdated and needed changing. This issue is something that needs to be changed and brought up to a modern approach. Everything in skydiving has taken leaps in advancement except for how we train people under canopy. We are flying faster more manuverable canopies more now than ever before. Even a docile student canopy is more advanced than what was being flown 5,10,15 years ago but the training requirments and education has lagged behind. It has to begin somewhere, there never is a perfect time or place or cookie cutter solution. But like anything else, if it is implimented and carried out, I am sure future generations will look back and shake their heads at "how they used to do it" and wonder "what were they thinking?"
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Hook,

You and Lou have made some great points. This subject as you know is a hot button between the "free spirits" and the frustrated few.

I would hope that you, Lou, and Chuck would agree that if DZ's would only start by teaching the ISP and using the basic canopy program incorporated within, many would be better prepared.

Again, as I've said so many times before it boils down to "educate or regulate". When Lou speaks of the "we" in skydiving and placing hope there, simply look at these posts. How much confidence does that give you?

Genius is knowing what you do not know, stupidity is knowing it all.

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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i think it is yours truly that scott and betsy are roasting. the last time the last time i checked with the people who ARE actually around to see me fly a canopy don't seem to agree. stick with what you know, not what you heard. pfft.



I wasn't trying to single you or anyone elseout as there are many that come to mind. However, if the show fits, wear it. I have seen you land, several times, I'll leave it at that. I am not trying to point the finger at anyone in particular. We all know people who are a hazard to themselves and others under canopy. Go to any DZ and you will find at a minimum one that fits into that category be it newbie or experienced jumper. Training and education is the answer to this issue. Some people fear change and like to bitch about it. The reality is that we can either have a say in how it changes or sit around and let friends drive themselves into the ground until the government steps in and tells us how it will change.


If anyone has a better way to address this please speak up with your solution to the problem.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Education will NOT come through regulation. Your proposal is unrealistic, but tempts the eternal regulators to create another legal monstrosity.

Once again let me bring the example of the 140 lbs. skydiver who hooked and swooped the entire ZHills pond under a 240 foot canopy.

I agree that people should pursue education to further their skills and knowledge of skydiving. I very strongly oppose cries for regulation People in this sport need no more imposed rules. AFF currently gives you enough skills to survive and thrive if you are a little more than half witted.

Learning is a natural progression. Some do it faster, some do it slower. Let it be natural and above all, don't ask for double standards. In your letter you did. I disagree!
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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jraf,

Read "educate OR regulate". That is the point.
If most of the skydiving community spent half the time "doing" and not fighting on the .com's imagine what would happen. Might be a few less "requirements" in this "self governing sport".


Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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AFF currently gives you enough skills to survive



And that is the problem. We see many people survive landings on a daily basis and more often than I like, we see people who don't survive. Again, I hear what you're saying but you're not offering a viable alternate solution.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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