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jeremyneas

Anon: What do you think about your money and demos?

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This is an anonymous poll. What do you really think of all the Demo insurance hupla. Are PRO skydivers going to far in the rants? Should USPA give up the fight, and let the demo guys find their own insurance?

I already know that some of these answers overlap each other.

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Do demo jumpers ever get paid?

I don't know much about demo jumps but I'd like to do one. But, my feeling is that the lure of a demo jump is more entertaining to the jumper than for the spectators. Yeah, they think it's neato-completo for a guy in a parachute to land on the field but I imagine that it's much more thrilling for the jumper. Who would not jump at the chance to jump into a crowded stadium before a big event? Yeah, not all demo's are like that, but oh well, life isn't fair.

I don't see how anyone can argue that it's work, not play, unless they're on a military team and they're being told to do it. So, how is it anything more than everyone else paying for the insurance to cover a few jumpers' fun, and therefore, a group that is standing on our shoulders?

Is the purpose REALLY to promote the sport? No, it's just something that people want to do. They should arrange to cover the cost of the event and insurance themselves.

As I said I don't know much about demo jumps, but really, that doesn't matter, I'm being taxed so that someone else can have more fun. Maybe someday I'll do some demo jumps. But just as I don't expect anyone to cover my jumps right now, I can't expect anyone to cover those jumps. If the cost of insurance is just too high, then that's simply a fatal flaw.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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This is an anonymous poll. What do you really think of all the Demo insurance hupla. Are PRO skydivers going to far in the rants? Should USPA give up the fight, and let the demo guys find their own insurance?

I already know that some of these answers overlap each other.

Quote


You should probably take some time and go completely through the posts concerning these issues,
as from the content of you poll / post you really don't
have a realistic grasp of the situation....

In brief, it is NOT a demo jumper insurance issue...

It actually is an issue affecting all members of the USPA.

The general membership liability coverage that ALL
members of the USPA have, is a part of the overall
insurance policy, of which is actually written in two parts...

Either one of which cannot exist without the other.

As far as the general membership 'subsidizing' the
demo insurance,
it is true that less than 5 dollars of each members
yearly dues go toward the demo insurance premium...

A policy that the organization used as a stopgap
solution while another fix could be found.
Which the USPA is currently doing and should have
in place by the next Board of Directors meeting.

If you were to actually do some research in the area,
you would no doubt be surprised to find that if the "demo" section were to be excluded from the overall policy as it currently stands...
your part of the general membership premium would most likely increase for the basic coverage you currently enjoy.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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***As I said I don't know much about demo jumps...

Quote



No...you don't

So why make uninformed comments?

I'm not trying to attack you here...
But from your post I don't think you understand
what all is really involved in doing demos.

Yes, it is fun, I do them because I love all aspects
of aviation and in particular Skydiving.

I see performing demonstration jumps as an
avenue to exposing my obsession to the general public.

I take measures to demonstrate the safe and enjoyable aspects of the sport as much as possible in the venue
that a demonstration jump will allow.

After a performance, I will speak positively about our
sport to anyone willing to listen...
I travel all over the country doing shows and will
whenever possible distribute information pointing
interested spectators toward a local dropzone
so that they too can benefit from my 'fun'.

As stated in the this months "Capital Commentary"
article in "Parachutist Magazine,"
the additional membership growth has decreased in
recent years...this is a bad thing,
without additional members and the continued growth
of the organization,
resources will continue to diminish and the strength of
the USPA will no longer be what it is.

I know for a fact that people I have interacted with during the course of a performance have gone on to become
jumpers and USPA members.

What have YOU done to increase the membership
of our organization?

As far as Demo performers "Standing on the Shoulders"
of jumpers such as yourself...

If you are referring to the $4.90 of your membership dues
that went toward the demonstration insurance portion
of the 3rd party liability coverage last year,
as I said above...
that was a stopgap measure to Band-Aid an unforeseen increase in the premium charged by our insurance carrier.
The USPA is taking measures to rectify that situation at
this moment and a solution should be in place soon.

If it is your understanding that the general membership
pays the whole freight on the demo policy,
you are mistaken.
Demonstration jumpers can purchase the additional
insurance either annually (about 12,000.00 in premium)
or, for individual events,
(depending on coverage limits and days, anywhere from 1500.00 to 5000.00).

None of this premium is covered by the general membership...again only the
> 5.00 of the annual dues each member paid last year
went toward that,
and again only as a Band-Aid.

I have been doing demos for 28 years,
over 20 on a 'high profile' Demonstration Team...
and in all that time, I've NEVER come out positive on
the spread sheet at the end of the year.

There are no demo jumpers that are making the mortgage
and feeding the kids on their demo paychecks.
They do it for the love of the skydiving and the enjoyment
they gain from meeting people and introducing our sport.

True Demo Professionals don't have anymore 'ego' than
regular sport jumpers...

I had the honor of being a participant in the 100
person demonstration jump into the Kitty Hawk
"Century of Flight" celebration...

During one of the organizational meetings that was held,
I couldn't help but think looking around that room...
at the 100 plus demonstration jumpers there, that I wish
the entire skydiving community could be witness to the camaraderie, conduct and professionalism exhibited by
ALL of those in attendance.

If you should ever truly become interested in pursuing demonstration parachute jumping...
I would be more than happy to assist you in any way
possible to realize that aspiration.

....as would most all PRO Rated demo jumpers. ;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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As a pro jumper i should be informed of all the facts...but, Chris Needles tone in the Capitol Commentary a few months back suggests that by pulling the two apart and throwing away the demo side will cheepin the insurance all together.

Or by getting rid of all the liability insurance in one swoop. Unfortunately (here in the forums) it can be a challenge to disect all the facts from the riff raff on the topics (myself included!). It would be nice to see these facts and myths published on the USPA website.

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***As a pro jumper i should be informed of all the facts...but, Chris Needles tone in the Capitol Commentary a few months back suggests that by pulling the two apart and throwing away the demo side will cheepin the insurance all together.

Quote



I might suggest you reread the article...

In fact, the two policies are 'attached' as one,
and from my understanding of the policy,
the general membership liability portion is a rider
to the demonstration part.

Either way, as it is currently written...
Which IS the MOST economical way possible...
The two policies cannot exist on their own
without the other.

The premium cost for either one alone,
would not be cost effective for the organization
or it's members.

Plainly put....
Cut out the demonstration end of the coverage,
and the 50,000.00 general membership liability coverage would be considerably MORE costly than it is now.

And I agree,
More accurate information SHOULD
be available to the members....

Since I have been aware of this insurance crisis,
I have become rather interested and inquisitive
as to proceedings surrounding it.
I'm astonished to find out just how little
accurate communication there is, in its regard....

Even among the USPA itself!

Unless I'm being bullshitted to the extreme...
Even communication between
Board Members... National Directors....Conference Directors
...is at best "UNCLEAR"

We all know the USPA is a 'political' organization....
But even from a critical standpoint,
from what I can see they are generally trying to
do what is in the best interest of the overall membership
of the skydiving community.

Certainly positive changes could be made...

But by whom?

Is there really any genuine interest as to the day to
day workings of this organization?

I can tell by the tone and content of many of the posts
concerning this issue,
that some out there speaking with authority are stating 'facts' and voicing opnions that have no
basis in factual reality.

I'm by no means an expert on this issue....
But I have taken the time to try to become somewhat
informed, and though in some instances have been a bit
inaccurate with my interpretation and subsequent posting
of the things I've discovered...

My only intent is to raise awareness to what can
only be described as the most critical issue faced by
our organization in the past decade.

I sat here in bewildered amusement for well over a week following Mr. Needles article addressing the situation in Parachutist...

In this...
The most popular and well run "Real Time" forum for the
Skydiving community,
there was NOT ONE post making reference to the
editorial in "Capital Commentary"...

Plenty on 'Boobies' and 'Gun Control',
but nothing pertaining to insurance until I could
take it no more and posted a WTF rant.

So where is the interest..the outrage...?!











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Thanks for the reply...so the question is...

What next?

By the number of posts and interest, you have taken a leadership position here. I think a clear (especially moneywise) weighted balence of pros and cons of different ideas should be presented, and voted on by membership.

It's a pity that that information is so hard to come by. I hope it will be made available before the next election so that skydivers have a 'real' issue to vote people into office on.

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Thanks for the reply...so the question is...

What next?

By the number of posts and interest, you have taken a leadership position here. I think a clear (especially moneywise) weighted balence of pros and cons of different ideas should be presented, and voted on by membership.

It's a pity that that information is so hard to come by. I hope it will be made available before the next election so that skydivers have a 'real' issue to vote people into office on.


Quote



I'm in full agreement with you there!

Perhaps if enough of us, make enough noise
to show there is genuine interest in
membership involvement regarding the
resolution of 'these' issues...
as well as others.
We can get some lines of communication
going that would improve the organization overall.

Thanks for the calm, well thought out reply...











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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don't know much about demo jumps but I'd like to do one.



As Jim said, No you don't know anything about demos. A demo jump is not a skydive, it is a performance you are putting on at any given venue. Your actions, both in the air and on the ground, represent 35,000 skydivers throughout the country. What you and you fellow jumpers do on that one day can have an impact far beyond the crowd you are landing in front of. If you act like a jerk, all 35,000 skydivers are jerks. How you are perceived can influence weather a DZO is allowed to open a DZ in the area, or the DZ in the area is allowed to stay open. Demos are not for everyone, they are hard work and the required skills must be keep sharp. You will never get rich. But damn, they can make you happy to be alive.:P
Michael
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Ok, this is splitting threads but since the only thing that is firmly settled is that I don't know much about demos; as I emphasized TWICE in MY post. But, that has nothing to do with it.

The point of what Jeremy is asking could be polled like this: Would you pay more so that demo jumpers can do their demo jumps? Answer: No. I also don't want to pay more car insurance so that race-car drivers are covered. How can one ask that someone pay for their particular aspect of their sport. Quoting Airtwardo: "demos and skydiving
are two very different animals."

This is specifically about paying more for demo's. I know I risk getting my ass kicked by you two old farts but I'll assume you understand we're talking as if sitting down for a beer. I'm asking questions as the devil's advocate. In fact part of what I do for a living is question people who have 40+ more years than me. I learn a lot and I'm sarcastic.

Replying to Jim: "What have YOU done to increase the membership of our organization?"

I didn't realize that I should be increasing membership. We're not curing cancer or stopping hunger in Mali... If this is so important, then where's the effort from USPA? I've been to two sporting events in which there were demo jumps. No mention of local DZ's or USPA. In fact, if this is so important, then why, as a jumper have I never heard of my role as a missionary. I don't have to go door to door selling subscriptions to Playboy to keep MY rates down, Hugh takes care of that... Yet, all of a sudden the onus is on me?

I do recognize that the reputation of skydivers is related to demo jumps, but how is it dependant upon it? Demo jumps don't even get televised in the pre-game unless something bad happens. I'd be interested to hear how demo jumps helped someone open a DZ. I imagine that there could (unfortunately) only be a negative side because of a a demo gone wrong.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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The tone of this reply suggests that I am included in the old and busted catagory.

Just in case noone was following, Jeremy is the new hotness, he was refering to Mike and Jim as old and busted.

So to reitierate, Jeremy...new hotness
Mike and Jim...old and busted

But after I give Jim and Mike the keys, they must become...old hotness.

(if you didn't understand the above joke, then you need to sit on your ass and watch more movies)

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Not a flame on you but here's a point.
People like you who just want to do demos for fun wreck it for the pros.
You would jump into the Superbowl for free right?
I wouldnt. I think that jump is worth at least $1500 after expenses to me and my experience. Thats non refundable if I call off the jump for any reason.
If you are willing to do that jump for free, how can a Pro possibly charge enough to cover insurance and make a buck?
That goes all the way down list of demo jumps, from the Bowl games to the local mall opening.

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Don't worry, I know it's not a flame. I do understand your point and agree completely. I'm not a demo jumper, and at 180 jumps am no-where near it. I do think that it should be left to people like Jim who not only have the expertise but the patience and self discipline to scrub it if it's not going to work or if the organizer wants something that's unsafe. I get amp'ed up after a good dive, I would be absolutely buzzing if it were into a packed stadium with cheerleaders.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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The point of what Jeremy is asking could be polled like this: Would you pay more so that demo jumpers can do their demo jumps?

Quote


Don't get me wrong..
I understand the question, and the argument.
But...
in the real world context, it's an irrelevant query!

If one were to become familiar with the demo / insurance
issue, they would find that no one is asking them
to pay more so that us 'old farts' can do demos!

By stating the question in that manner, it assumes facts
not presented in testimony!


Replying to Jim: "What have YOU done to increase the membership of our organization?"

I didn't realize that I should be increasing membership. We're not curing cancer or stopping hunger in Mali... If this is so important, then where's the effort from USPA? I've been to two sporting events in which there were demo jumps. No mention of local DZ's or USPA.


Okay...

Being a 'boring old guy'... :o
with little else to do,

I read all my Skydiving & Parachutist mags cover to cover.
And in fact, there has been mention made in those
publications concerning the importance to us all as an organization, to make efforts to increase the overall membership.

No one is asking that you go door to door..
But on the other side, why would you go out of your
way to possibly handcuff those trying to increase the membership...
by ANY means?!

My way just happens to be doing demos.

(I have friends that make it a point to recruit at least one
newbie a month, and have even seen them kick in some
bucks to get a coworker tandemed.)

If you've been to sporting events that featured
a parachute demo,
and no mention was made as to the local DZ...USPA...
or sport jumping in general.

Then you have witnessed first hand the difference
betweena 'Professional Demonstration Jumper'...
and a jumper with a 'Professional Rating'! :|

In my humble opinion, :)
There is no excuse for not 'pumping' the sport,
at some point
before...during....or after the performance.
Ya got the crowd there...got their attention...SELL 'EM!

Whenever possible I make it a point to contact a local
DZ to ask if there is any literature or 'DZ promotional'
info they would like to have us distribute...

And in fact have had some marketing savvy DZO's send
a few local based jumpers to assist us with ground crew duties,
so that they might be able to do some recruiting
on site. :ph34r:


And finally... >:(
To put one area of this discussion to rest forever!
To clarify.....

I'm NOT an old fart! I'm 'seasoned'! :$

Now Sparky on the other hand...
HE'S AN OLD FART! :P










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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...Adding fuel to the fire. :)
All this "Hoopla" concerning demo jumpers and
insurance comment, made me realize that much
of what has been discussed in these forums is just
so much wasted bandwidth. :|

I encourage you to become more informed on the topic
before structuring such a thread and polling the public.

The demo jumpers didn't create the crisis...
but since we tend to utilize the coverage benefit in
the process of marketing & promoting a demonstration,
we perhaps are more aware of it's importance.


Some "Fun Facts" for those interested...

Since 1999, there have been all of TWO claims
against the demo policy. :o

The TOTAL payout for these two claims is a whopping:
$ 2892.00 :)

(Total payout for all insured demo jumpers since
1999 is a little less than the premium I paid to
cover two events this past summer,)

In that same time period, since 1999
The "General Membership Liability" policy
had 54 claims against it... >:(

Resulting in a total payout of $ 324,292.00 B|


Granted there are more General Members...
(all of us)
than demo policy users.

But that is STILL a rather telling set of figures!

The 'Bad-Rap' demo guys seem to be getting here,
actually comes about 5 years to late.

There were two very high claim payouts in the
decade prior to 1999...
In fact those two claims, resulted in 89% of the total demo insurance payouts for the ten years; 89-99. :(

I was just curious as to you motive for this poll?
Given the facts surrounding the whole issue,
I just find it odd. :S










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Sometime I think " why would I go through all the bs so some wuffo can watch me slowly pull my toggles down. Does a race car driver come to your street to show you how cool he can turn left ? "
If they want to see skydivers , and everyone knows the sport exists, they can come to OUR play ground and see us in our natuaral "zoo like " environment. But I'm having a jump on the ice day Sunday. It's for us not the wuffos. I still think demos are cool. Just wish we could get them to come to us for a better show.


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In sales there a phrase "the 3 p's Product,Price,Placement."
Product = Skydiving
Price = Half my income:S
Placement = anywhere people will watch!

Sometimes you have to take the show to the people. All a demo does is give (hopefully) a good veiw of our sport. Sometimes we even get good press!
If 1 person watching says "you know, next weekend let's go try that" Then the demo has done it's job.
most demos that I've seen only cover there direct exspenses. Thats better than most products being advertised in the media.
----------------------------------------------
"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

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OK, I thought I understood the demo insurance with USPA. I thought that demos were covered by USPA insurance, and the question was whether to keep it in the face of rising insurance costs. However, according to the USPA web site, demo insurance is not part of regular USPA insurance.

Can someone please clarify? Are demos covered by any USPA policy? Do you purchase that separately from USPA, or do you have to go out on your own to purchase it?

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Demos are not covered by having USPA membership and the liability insurance that comes with it. Demo insurance is extra and the price is outrageous!! It can be purchased through USPA.

Even when many demo jumpers believe they are insured, they may not be. Example: You qualify for a PRO Rating with a 290 and you switch over to a 260 without bothering to qualify on that canopy or perhaps you do not have the required 50 jumps on that canopy. The insurance company may not pay or may pay and under the subrogation clause, come back on you. (Whew)

Ed





Can someone please clarify? Are demos covered by any USPA policy? Do you purchase that separately from USPA, or do you have to go out on your own to purchase it?





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***Do you purchase that separately from USPA, or do you have to go out on your own to purchase it?

Quote


To clarify...

As a USPA member, you are automatically covered for
50,000 dollars of general liability insurance coverage.

That indemnifies you in regard to damage you may cause to other persons or real property, damaged during the course of 'normal skydiving operations'
to include damage to the jump ship itself,
but not including injury to you.

Demonstration insurance on the other hand,
is also offered by the organization...

Purchased separately, for a specified mount of coverage,
(we ordinarily buy the one million dollar option)
for specific event, or yearly,
covering specified persons performing at that event.

This supplemental coverage is offered as a rider to the General Membership policy.

Until recently, the two had no affect on each other...
then the premium was substantially increased.

In order to continue the availability of the supplemental coverage, the USPA was required to take funds from the general membership account as a temporary 'stopgap' fix.
About 5.00 of each members yearly dues went toward the increased premium.

...And the overall premium for the demo insurance
paid by the demo jumpers also drastically increased.

During the next BOD meeting, Feb 20-22..
Discussion will be focused on ways to relieve the
general fund from the burden of assisting in the
continuing operation of the demonstration coverage.

From my understanding...
Some of the ways will be to further increase the demo premium paid by demo jumpers,
to wholly cover the entire premium.

Also, there are other insurance companies that are
bidding on the policy coverage itself,
possibly (probably) at a significantly reduced rate.

The coverage limits may change somewhat,
as well as the types of things covered...

Some of the things that will be addressed 'hopefully'
during the meeting,
will be the coverage to jump ships...
which was the major payout on the general membership policy...
as well as better policing of the claims submitted to
both the general membership and demo policies.

There has NEVER been an instance of the insurer
NOT paying a claim,
no matter what possible violations may have been committed.
This is a decision entirely on the part of the insurer...
The USPA has no say as to what gets paid, for what reason and to whom.

With the current Demonstration Insurance,
Coverage is purchased either for the entire year,
about 12,000 dollars premium.
Or for an individual event, be it one day & one jump..
or say, a week long event with several jumps.

The Professional Demonstration team I jump with,
has in the past purchased our coverage by each event, passing the actual premium cost on to the promoter as
an additional expense to our contract.

On the surface, this may seem as a more expensive
way to cover or performances...
We paid well over the 12,000 dollars yearly premium
covering the various venues we performed in.

But actually, it is a 'business decision' we carefully considered...
There are 10 members that jump with our team,
although most performances require only 4 to 6 jumpers...
If all 10 members are listed on the policy,
and the coverage limit is one million,
in reality, each individual is only covered for 100,000.
Also...if the event itself is listed as a coinsured on the policy,
that limit per person on the team is even further decreased!

Many PRO jumpers don't realize this,
and should be aware of the
terms and conditions involved with utilization of the
Demo coverage.

I have been doing large demos for over two decades,
and have never had to submit a claim.

But in today's sue happy environment,
I would NEVER do any kind of demo without as much liability coverage as I could possibly get.

As I've said before...
Demonstration jumps are NOT anything like skydiving!

Prior to a jump at the dropzone, you may have a passing thought as to the possibility of your being injured
or killed as a result to the jump.
Performing a demonstration in front of a crowd encompasses not only those thoughts, but the possibility of damage or injury to others...
not only by you, but by ANY member of your demo team.

I'm extremely selective as to with who,
for what and where I'll perform,

I'm not willing to 'bet the ranch' on a
'this SHOULD work' scenario.

Hope this gives you a bit of insight...











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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