Pull the reserve handle?

[riddler 0]

Here's the question:

You are already an experienced skydiver with a few cutways. If you cutaway your main, and the RSL/skyhook/whatever opens your reserve, do you still pull your reserve handle?

I know that your first reaction is probably "yes"! That is what we teach students, and it makes sense for students. But if you are an experienced jumper, with a lot of jumps, and you know that reserve is over your head and flying correctly, does it still make sense to still pull the handle?

Here's the situation that made me think about this. Last weekend, I was on a load with an experienced (1800+ jumps) camera flyer and coach (video for tandem), who had a low cutaway, with an RSL (yes, he does fly RSL with camera, and he has a justification for it, but I hope this thread doesn't deviate to a discussion on that). He wasn't aware of is altitude when he chopped, and he wasn't aware of his altitude when he opened under reserve, but some estimates were that he chopped at about 1,800 and was under reserve by 1,200. On the ground, I saw him holding his cutaway handle, but not his reserve, so I asked him if he pitched the reserve handle. He then showed me his reserve handle still on the MLW and said he didn't need to pull it because his RSL did.

Now my first reaction to this was that he should have pulled the reserve handle as well, but that's only because that's what I teach AFF students to do. But then I thought why? It makes sense for students to pull the reserve handle in that situation, because they may not be experienced or aware enough to know what's happening, and it's better to give them a procedure that covers all possibilities.

But if you have 1800 jumps, and three cutways, you know what a good reserve over your head looks like. Why waste time pulling the reserve handle if you already know you have a good reserve out? If it's a low cutaway, that time might be better spent setting up for your landing. In the case of this jumper, his reserve opened into line twists, so he wisely spent time getting out of the twists, rather than pulling a now useless handle. The only disadvantage of not pulling the reserve handle that I can think of is that you are doing something contrary to what you were trained to do. Can anyone think of another reason to pull the reserve handle?

[freakydiver 0]

Honestly - if I had a mal and knew I had a RSL or Skyhook, I probably wouldn't pull the reserve in most situations. I'd give my self a second or two and see what is going on above me first. This wouldn't pertain to something really low though.

Edit - I'd still have my finger inside of the reserve loop jic though...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[FrogNog 1]

I have 1 cutaway on SOS as student and 0 on TAS, so I'm not experiened appropriately for the topic. However, I have a conviction.

Some of my early drills were in gun culture, and there depending on a fallible, mechanical safety device can kill. Fast forward to RSLs, and when someone tells me something is a backup device, I do all I can to make sure it stays a backup device. This means acting like it isn't there, and doing my procedures. Only if that is interrupted (e.g. by my noticing a huge white canopy overhead, instead of freefall) would I cease my original plan. It all depends on how quick I was on the reserve handle vs. how quick my RSL-opened reserve opens.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Hooknswoop 19]

If you don't pull the reserve handle, then you are relying on the RSL, which is bad. The RSL should not affect your emergency procedures.

Quote

He wasn't aware of is altitude when he chopped, and he wasn't aware of his altitude when he opened under reserve

And he didn't pull the handle?!?

Derek

[coconutmonkey 0]

A back up is just that, back up. Always pull all of your handles because is the back up doesn't function properly, you just wasted that time before terra firma gives you some deceleration complications.

Hearts & Minds
2 to the Heart-
1 to the Mind-
Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

[weegegirl 2]

Not for newbies... but I'd say, if you have a reserve over your head, what's the point in pulling the reserve handle? It only gives you more to worry about. I hope I don't get too beat up for saying this.

When I had my mal, I pulled both handles. But my arms are a lot shorter than the cable. So when I pulled my reserve handle, there was still cable left in the shaft. So I pulled it all the way out and in the process threw it. What I did was without much thought at all - it was burned into my head from the billions of times I have practiced my emergency procedures.

If you are an experienced jumper with a perfectly good reserve over your head, and you are concious of the situation, I say... don't bother.

[freakydiver 0]

"He wasn't aware of is altitude when he chopped, and he wasn't aware of his altitude when he opened under reserve"

If I was in that situation, I would've pulled silver, but if I knew I had a RSL or Skyhook and knew I had some alti to mess with, I just want to see if they do their job

Honestly, I'd probably get all freaked out anyways and pull silver!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[councilman24 36]

The point is that a skydiver should never have the opportunity to cutaway, see an open reserve before pulling the RC, and decide not to. Cutaway, pull the reserve. How long was he going to wait? What took him so long to pull? I couldn't stop myself from pulling if I wanted to. It's what we DO. WE open parachtues. And, sometimes, we have backups to save us when we screw up.

Cutaway and wait for the RSL? It'll be the time that the shackle breaks, the rigger screwed up, you forgot to hook it back up after CRW. I had a rigging customer with a few hundred jumps get taken low in a RW formation. He hurried the throw out and managed to wrap his PC around his front. He used the emergency procedure of pulling his cutaway anyway and then pulling his reserve. But, for a split second, he thought after pulling the cutaway that "I have an RSL, I don't need to pull the reserve."! Obviously, since he told me about it, he remembered that it wasn't going to work and pulled.

Don't wait and don't rely on the backup. Now, if you've ALREADY screwed up, should be dead because you didn't pull your reserve but your RSL did and saved your ass, and the canopy is open and flying, I guess why bother. Land, sell your gear, and take up golf.

Hmmm, I guess I have an opinion.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,397]

Reserve handles/pins/deployment systems are as foolproof and as rugged as designers can make them, because you will die if they fail. RSL's are not designed to the same standard. We had a lot of student RSL's come disconnected when the tab snagged on a jumpsuit or a riser or something. A student at Perris almost died when this happened; he cut away his main and the riser disconnected his RSL as it was leaving. (his AAD was on his main, so he had no backup.) Fortunately he pulled his reserve in time.

Also, on some mals (total, PC in tow, out of sequence, horseshoe) pulling the cutaway handle may not cause the reserve to open even if the RSL is working correctly. Would suck to go in with just a PC out.

The biggest issue that I see is that pulling your reserve handle after a cutaway isn't hard and won't put you in a worse position. Waiting for your RSL to open your reserve can kill you. Therefore the choice is easy.

[ryoder 1,384]

I was on that load, but didn't realize he didn't pull the reserve.

When I cutaway, I:
1. Put my right hand on the cutaway handle.
2. Put my left hand on the reserve handle.
3. Pull the cutaway.
4. The moment I'm sure both risers are gone, pull the reserve.

I am *not* going to waste valuable time/altitude waiting to learn
that my RSL wasn't hooked up.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[hookitt 0]

Remember my Skyhook test jump?

I expected the skyhook to work and it didn't. Since the RSL did it's job it didn't matter, but as I started to fall away and realized the Skyhook wasn't working, I had to start thinking about grabbing the reserve handle. Grabbing the reserve handle was not on my mind untill then.

In a real cutaway I would have cutaway and immeadiatly had my hand on the reserve handle. Since I expected something else, I did nothing and reacted after the fact.

With that said, If the reserve is already above the persons head, that means he waited a fair amount of time to reach for the Reserve handle. Had the RSL not done it's job, it would have taken approximately 3 seconds to realize nothing is happening, then react.

In a real life spinning on my back cutaway, and with the knowledge I had plenty of altitude, I cutaway was on my belly and pulled the rip cord within 1 second. It was on video so I timed it. In my mind it took a LOT longer. Had I expected an RSL to work and it didn't, I guestimate that the reserve ripcord would have been pulled with in 4 seconds rather than 1.

I don't have time to find my delay chart but a person falls a long ways in 4 seconds.

Hope that helps

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[freakydiver 0]

Just to cover my "image" here on DZ.com - I don't nor will never have a RSL or a skyhook so I'll always be pullin the silver...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[GravityGirl 0]

Yes! There is very little "real life" practice time available, so any muscle memory training, I'll take.

You also get to practice not hucking your handle

I have seven reserve rides. Most I saved my handles, but the last one, they were both long gone

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[rigging65 0]

I think the point of pulling the reserve handle, regardless of an RSL deployment or not, is to keep you in tune for when there might NOT be an RSL deployment (ie - RSL breaks, unhooks, whatever...)

As my noted colleague Hookit pointed out, if you're not ready for a failure, it takes a lot more time to recover from it.

Also, I don't buy the argument of "wasted time" when it comes to pulling a handle. It's not like you're going to be getting on the risers and sorting a canopy out so fast that you don't have time to pull a handle...especially if you were planning on pulling it anyway. It takes way less than a second to punch out another handle...and if you're like most jumpers, the second or two after you cutaway is spent watching the reserve deploy anyway (or wetting yourself, whichever...). You can watch and pee and pull the second handle at the same time.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[PhillyKev 0]

A) What's it going to hurt to pull the reserve handle at this point? Unless you're extremely slow, there shouldn't be that much time between the rsl and you pulling the handle.

B) I don't want to ever be the guy who went in with a handle in place. In fact, if my AAD ever fires, I'm still pulling the reserve.

ok, not so serious on the second, but still. As far as I'm concerned, I DO NOT HAVE AN RSL OR AAD except to the extent that I consider their possible complications of situations. In other words. They, just like everything else around me in the air have one purpose.....TO KILL ME. My job is to make sure that doesn't happen.

[GroundZero 0]

Quote

Remember my Skyhook test jump?

yea....

Chris

[skyflyerbritany 0]

Do you realy want to trust your life with a 2.00 dollar peice of fabrick? It may be too late when you realize it didn't do the job.

[jeremyneas 0]

9 Chops
--3 w/ RSL
--1 w/ Skyhook

The RSL works so fast, you generally don't have a chance to get the Reserve Ripcord out. It really is that fast.

But depending on your malfunction, container, reserve, airspeed, functioning RSL, it may not be fast, or be at all.

Go through the motions. Not just for 'saving your lifes sake but to avoid the razzing on the ground

[Auryn 0]

Quote

Remember my Skyhook test jump?

I expected the skyhook to work and it didn't. Since the RSL did it's job it didn't matter, but as I started to fall away and realized the Skyhook wasn't working, I had to start thinking about grabbing the reserve handle. Grabbing the reserve handle was not on my mind untill then.

In a real cutaway I would have cutaway and immeadiatly had my hand on the reserve handle. Since I expected something else, I did nothing and reacted after the fact.

With that said, If the reserve is already above the persons head, that means he waited a fair amount of time to reach for the Reserve handle. Had the RSL not done it's job, it would have taken approximately 3 seconds to realize nothing is happening, then react.

The emergency procedure of "reach right, reach left, once touching both, pull right pull left" would eliminate any situation of reaching time.

when I had my PC in tow that cleared due to low airspeeds and poor gear maintainance (my grommet on my last main closing flap was rough) I had my hands on BOTH my handles within 1 second.
NOTE I have chosen to cut away a PC in tow.

emergency procedures for ANY partial (for me):

cut away and pull reserve.

RSL or not, if I am touching silver to begin with, why not pull it ? and if I throw it away, so be it. $35 is worth my life in any situation. And Hell, I am stubborn enough that I would probably go find the bastard if at all possible.

Blue Ones !

D 27808

[skymedic 0]

well I recently had my first cutaway. I have an RSL and I am an advocate of them. I pulled both my cutaway and silver...as even though I am an advocate of the RSL I also know that it is just a 2 dollar hunk of metal and fabric that may not work properly.

funny thing is I pulled and lost my reserve handle even though I have an RSL...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Tonto 1]

I never pulled the reserve handle on my last Tandem mal. (I have 18 total chops of which 8 are Tandem) When I saw the RSL had it, I left the handle stowed. On Tandem there are a lot of handles. I already had 2. (Drouge release and cutaway) why add a 3rd? A tandem reserve takes around 1000ft to open, and I was open just above 3000ft. You know within the first 6 feet or so whether or not your RSL has worked. In this case my reserve malfunctioned, but that story is in incidents, here.

I think with students its real important to drill that they ALWAYS pull both handles. This was the 1st time I never pulled the handle. The RSL has failed to activate the reserve deployment on 3 of my 7 Tandem mals. Non of my other gear is equipped with an RSL.

Edited to add link to incidents.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[fudd 0]

My EP is in muscle memory. I don't think I can not pull the reserve handle when I first start.
I throw away the cutaway handle, but not the reserve handle. I see no good reason to throw it, nor any reason not to pull it.
I really don't care if I loose a handle or two. When the shit hits the fan, I care about walking away in one piece.

One good addition to regular EP drills that I like (and think should be mandatory for students) is to put on a traning harness and have someone pulling you around simulating a spinning mal. It's a far more realistic simulation, and you can practise to to your EPs under some stress.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[pkasdorf 0]

Quote

The point is that a skydiver should never have the opportunity to cutaway, see an open reserve before pulling the RC, and decide not to. Cutaway, pull the reserve. How long was he going to wait? What took him so long to pull? I couldn't stop myself from pulling if I wanted to. It's what we DO. WE open parachtues. And, sometimes, we have backups to save us when we screw up.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK!

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[riddler 0]

Quote

The RSL has failed to activate the reserve deployment on 3 of my 7 Tandem mals.

Wow. Is this because the RSL failed to work properly, or because the tandem mals were of the type that do not respond to RSL?

[Tonto 1]

Quote

Quote

The RSL has failed to activate the reserve deployment on 3 of my 7 Tandem mals.

Wow. Is this because the RSL failed to work properly, or because the tandem mals were of the type that do not respond to RSL?

The RSL failed to work. System was a Vector 2, with a brass snap shackle that just came undone under load. It was replaced with a Stainless Steel snap-shackle that seems to work OK.

I only listed cutaways. Not uses of a reserve parachute. There would negate the use of an RSL.

t

It's the year of the Pig.