Harksaw 0 #26 August 29, 2003 Why isn't this bigger news? I can't find it anywhere on the USPA website (I'm at work so I cant read parachutist until i get home) but this sounds like it has the capacity to really screw up skydiving in general.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #27 August 29, 2003 Still don't ge the reason why we can't just drop the demo insurance. Demo teams could form a corporation to limit the exposure they have. If you have to have insurance to do the demo than the "customer" has to pay the cost. Why are the two tied together?Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattb 0 #28 August 29, 2003 QuoteIf they drop the insurance...and DZ's start to drop the need to have a USPA card... What happens after one jumper hooks into a private pilot's plane and causes $$$ in damage and the pilot goes after the dropsone? Do dropzones ask jumpers to provide proof of personal liability insurance in order to jump? I know some homeowners policies (e.g. State Farm) include a small umbrella liability policy and you can always purcahse more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #29 August 29, 2003 QuotePhillyKev... Do you by chance have a background in law? No, but used to sell P&C insurance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skream 0 #30 August 29, 2003 The AKA (American Kiteflier's Association) went through this same thing not too long ago with liability insurance. We used to have $100K. It was thought we'd lose it all. Eventually someone found an insurer that would cover us, though for a lower $25K. I would suggest someone contacting them and possibly USPA could learn from their experience in the same thing. If USPA could keep liability, though at a lower rate, then that would be better than nothing. Contact information for the executive committee of the AKA is at http://www.aka.kite.org/officers.shtml#executive--- Michael Teator Lexington, Kentucky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #31 August 29, 2003 Quote Still don't ge the reason why we can't just drop the demo insurance. *** Because that is NOT an option... Go through the prior posts in this thread, The insurance company wants to carry BOTH policies, "Linked" if you will... because it means more $ for them. If it were POSSIBLE to separate the two... The money required to continue the General Membership coverage, would NOT be a minor fraction of the 'overall' premium currently being paid. It would be a MAJOR slice! An amount so great, it still would not be a financially sound move... as the organization would merely slow the drain on it's reserves only slightly. ...If it helps you, Think of you as an individual, insuring two similar cars with the same carrier. The first car costs 1000.00 per year for coverage. The second car, "Linked" as a rider on the policy costs another 300.00 more per year. If you sell car # 1, you can't tell the insurance company that you're now down to one car.... and it's the 300.00 a year for coverage one! The premium is still going to be 1000.00... The deal is... The cost of ANY available insurance, for our organization ... in the current market, is still going to cause a MAJOR negative cash flow balance. And... From what I've been able to research so far, It might actually be a MORE viable option for a select group of "zero claim history" demo jumpers to as you say 'incorporate' their means and utilize an 'event coverage' form of 3rd party liability insurance. ...But without a proven track record for an actuary risk assessor to go by. The initial costs would be considerable. And you can bet that any current teams or individuals that would co-op together in the procurement of such coverage, would make every possible effort to maintain a 'zero claim history' ...Ya think a "PRO" rating was tough to get before ??? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #32 August 29, 2003 QuoteThe money required to continue the General Membership coverage, would NOT be a minor fraction of the 'overall' premium currently being paid. It would be a MAJOR slice! Again, not to dis demo jumpers, but I've never cared that the dues I pay insure demo jumpers. I do care about the insurance I have as a member. If the price stayed the same, but demo jumpers were no longer covered, I'm fine with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #33 August 29, 2003 Quote Why isn't this bigger news? Quote The only thing I can think of is an old Russian saying... " Don't wake the kids to tell them there's no food for breakfast tomorrow." ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #34 August 29, 2003 QuoteWhat happens after one jumper hooks into a private pilot's plane and causes $$$ in damage and the pilot goes after the dropsone? Sorry, that's the airplane owner's problem. If I decided that I wanted to drive a Mercedes Benz 560SEL, should everyone increase their liability coverage because I want to drive an expensive car? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattb 0 #35 August 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhat happens after one jumper hooks into a private pilot's plane and causes $$$ in damage and the pilot goes after the dropsone? Sorry, that's the airplane owner's problem. If I decided that I wanted to drive a Mercedes Benz 560SEL, should everyone increase their liability coverage because I want to drive an expensive car? No but most states mandate drivers carry enough in liability coverage to cover an "average car". Take that to mean that your insurance won't have cover a Learjet but a may need to cover a Cessna. Pilots carry insurance - why not skydivers? I'm not a fan of our litigous society but they way it stands you are liable for your actions. If one group of people repeatedly acts, causes damage, and fails to pay problems tend to arise. How many aircrafts would have to be damaged by jumpers, skyballs, etc. before AOPA took a stand against skydivers? Insurance sucks. Lack of insurance can lead to things that suck even more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #36 August 29, 2003 Quote If the price stayed the same, but demo jumpers were no longer covered, I'm fine with that. *** Kev...re-think, or re-state that thought. Pay the 'same' premium for what in effect is substantially less product? That's ludicrous... You obviously meant something different. (...or you're REALLY pissed at us demo jumpers) What I guess I'm not clearly relating... If the price stayed the same, or anywhere near.... The organization will NOT be able to stay solvent. They didn't just increase the demo jumpers cost by 50% because of an associated rise in the premium ... It was done to band-aid the hole in the boat... slow the leak until MAJOR repairs can be undertaken. We're talking 1/2 million bucks a year here! Any idea of what that 'brand new' facility USPA bought COSTS !? This has never been a high profit business venture... What besides dues and investments generate operating capital ??? ...ain't that much mark-up on those cute little altimeter clocks! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #37 August 29, 2003 Quote Sorry, that's the airplane owner's problem. Quote Your logic speaks volumes. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #38 August 29, 2003 Quoteshould everyone increase their liability coverage because I want to drive an expensive car? actually, yes. If your liability insurance comes up short, you pay the remainder out of your pocket. You have $20k in liability and end up smashing into a Vette and totalling it, be prepared to start selling off body parts. To put your question from the other side. If I decide that I want to drive a 560SEL and some dumb ass without enough insurance runs a red light and smashes into it, should I have to foot the bill? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #39 August 29, 2003 QuoteKev...re-think, or re-state that thought. Pay the 'same' premium for what in effect is substantially less product? That's ludicrous... You obviously meant something different. (...or you're REALLY pissed at us demo jumpers) Nothing against demo jumpers, but I'm not paying for less product, I'm paying for the same product. I don't get demo coverage now so dropping demo coverage from the policy doesn't take away something I wasn't using before. If I buy a tv based on features that I use, and it happens to have picture in picture, but I don't ever use it, I'd be just as happy with the same tv without that feature for the same price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #40 August 29, 2003 We need to find someway to separate the two coverages. Demo coverage should stand on it's own at whatever the cost. Third Party Liability is critical coverage for drop zones. Many DZ's on public airports are required to have this coverage and will be forced to close or move if it is not available. Likewise, the third party coverage helps DZ's on private airports. Last year we had a licensed skydiver slam into a parked airplane and do more than USD 20,000 in damage. The jumper was a college student with no job and no insurance other than the USPA coverage. Without that coverage the pilot would have been forced to collect from the DZ or airport. Drop zones and airports (and the owners of those airports) need third party protection or they won't let us jump. This is the critical part of the program and must be protected. The original post said the anticipated premium growth rate was something like 'more than ten times', and suggested the only alternative was to drop the coverage. I don't see the supporting documentation of figures to generate that level of premium or dues increase. In any case, our membership insurance is critical to me as a jumper, at whatever the cost. Tom Buchanan S&TA Instructor Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and EasyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #41 August 29, 2003 QuoteAgain, not to dis demo jumpers, but I've never cared that the dues I pay insure demo jumpers. I do care about the insurance I have as a member. If the price stayed the same, but demo jumpers were no longer covered, I'm fine with that. Agreed, since USPA wishes not to clearly explain anything about these outrageous claims from demo jumps gone wrong that the general membership policy has to fund. Why would I care to fund a "blank check" for the next lawyer trick? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRHSkyPrincess 0 #42 August 29, 2003 Doesn't matter who signs what...anyone can sue anyone else (and they'll go after he/she who has the bucks) at any time. Even if 'frivolous', it still costs to defend the suit. So what benefits do we get from USPA if that third party liability is going away....hmmmm.....***************** Attitude is everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #43 August 29, 2003 QuoteSo what benefits do we get from USPA if that third party liability is going away....hmmmm. Well, see the thread about the TSA letter to airport screeners regarding parachutes, and parachutist. But that alone doesn't justify the cost of dues. The insurance is a major reason why I'm a member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #44 August 29, 2003 QuoteThat wouldn't really protect you. If an innocent bystander is injured, a skydiver signing the above won't do you any good. The innocent person didn't agree to only hold the individual skydiver responsible. They could and would go after the dz Well, true. Anyone can sue anyone. However, I would add two caveats to your statement. 1) I created a shell corporation with no assets other than a few items of equipment. They can sue the organization... but I'll bankrupt it. They can come after me as a Board member, but they cannot go after my personal assets unless they can prove gross negligence on my part. 2) If one of our skydivers lands on an innocent bystander, you can bet its going to be a long fight. I'm going to point at them and the BSRs. People are obstacles - avoid. Now this may sound curt, but if you want to skydive and we lose our insurance, you're going to have to assume some responsibility for skydiving. If you land on someone...shame on you. The flip side of the coin is; lose the drop zone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #45 August 29, 2003 Quotebut they cannot go after my personal assets unless they can prove gross negligence on my part. Which wouldn't be hard if you're taking part in day to day operations. Quote2) If one of our skydivers lands on an innocent bystander, you can bet its going to be a long fight. I'm going to point at them and the BSRs. People are obstacles - avoid. Now this may sound curt, but if you want to skydive and we lose our insurance, you're going to have to assume some responsibility for skydiving. If you land on someone...shame on you. I agree, and would take personal responsibility for my screw ups. But what if the skydive dies and has no assets? Who's the innocent party going after? In other words.....the insurance is an absolute necessity for skydivers, and especially dropzones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carth 0 #46 August 29, 2003 this may be a dumb question.. but if you planning on landing in a certain spot and someone walks infront of you at the last minute why are you liable and not them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #47 August 29, 2003 >but if you planning on landing in a certain spot and someone walks >infront of you at the last minute why are you liable and not them? Because (in the case of a demo) you are a paid professional and they are a paying spectator with an expectation of safety. They didn't sign a waiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carth 0 #48 August 29, 2003 i ment on just a normal jump on a demo i could understand it. would it be like arguing that a bike that peddled into your car should be held responsible? even if you did everything right your still held accountable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #49 August 29, 2003 >i ment on just a normal jump on a demo i could understand it. Hmm. Most DZ's I've been at don't allow spectators in the landing area unless they've signed a waiver, at which point they are under the same legal 'umbrella' that the skydiver is. >would it be like arguing that a bike that peddled into your car should > be held responsible? even if you did everything right your still held > accountable? Not sure what you're trying to say here. Is your example akin to a jumper landing, standing there, and then having a whuffo run full tilt into you? If that's the case I agree, it would be their responsibility. Generally the person moving has the obligation to avoid the more stationary person. In the case of a jumper landing, the jumper has the obligation to avoid people on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #50 August 29, 2003 Why do you think Bill has the name of his company "The Uninsured Relative Workshop"? Hell, I had a guy file on me after he failed to flair the canopy on landing after an AFF L-1 jump and broke both femurs. Sent his lawyer a noterized copy of my net worth and I was dropped from the suit ASAP. The less insurance, the better IMHO.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
