airtwardo 6 #1 August 29, 2003 Soapbox Rant Time! I have had some discussion pertaining to this topic in an 'obscure' thread about PRO jumper qualifications... The importance to us all, and the fact I haven't seen discussion concerning what has and is about to happen... Leads me to bring it to everyone's attention. I strongly believe that our sport as we know it is about to undergo some serious and drastic changes. As addressed in the "Presidents Perspective" editorial in this months PARACHUTIST magazine... As of March 2004, the 3rd party liability insurance offered as a benefit of membership will no longer exist. I not talking "Demo" insurance... which too will no longer be offered, I'm referring to the "General Membership" liability coverage that each one of us has in case we do damage or cause injury to someone during the course of our common, everyday 'legal' participation in sport skydiving. In order to assure the continued growth of our USPA organization, the executive board is faced with a most difficult decision. (A) Continue to subsidize the astronomical insurance premium associated with the coverage, and bleed the financial reserves dry. (B) Raise the individual membership dues to point where it will cover the yearly premium, doing the rough math...a ten fold increase in your dues still wouldn't approach the needed cash flow. (C) Discontinue the coverage '"in it's present form" before it runs the organization completely into the ground. As a business decision, the only logical path is to withdraw from the policy. How will the lack of liability coverage effect the sport? ...Only time will tell, but in our suit happy environment... what choice will dropzone owner / operators have but to take measures to lessen their exposure to the risk of loss. If for example 'Joe Jumper' low hooks onto the top of 'Mr.Hollywood's' Lear Jet that's being fueled during the course of an airport's FBO operations... And ole 'Joe', being the assistant manager at Taco Bell has no real assets... Who do you think 'Hollywood' is going to go after? The DZO...the Pilot...manifestor....??? My guess is everyone present that can make steam on a mirror! Heaven forbid 'Joe' should center punch the pump jockey and cripple him up! I personally am disappointed with myself for not seeing this coming a long time ago... The indicators were there... just wasn't paying close enough attention. Anyone recall Chris Needles editorial last year addressing this issue? In it he clearly states that the situation was approaching critical mass... and that it was up to each of us to take measures to lessen the trend regarding claims against both the Demo and General Membership policy. Doesn't get much plainer than that! ...I had a feeling this was coming down a couple of months ago. As a member of a 'High Profile' demo team, I busied myself investigating possible options for 'zero claim' professionals such as myself... to procure outside coverage suitable to maintain our demo team's continued existence. What I've been learning is an eye opener! From what I have been able to thus far gather... We as a group, as a matter of record, have proven ourselves to be of such high risk that we are for practical terms anyway... Uninsurable!!! We did it to ourselves gang! On the bright side... We have until next March to put our collective heads together... and try to come up with a workable solution. For the USPA's part...who knows, possibly saving and investing the 1/2 million bucks a year premium, currently being spent... they will be able to utilize some form of investment tool to aid in the organization "Self-insuring" the membership. But anything like that, won't be happening soon. Comments? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #2 August 29, 2003 Without the insurance, why in the world do I want to be a member? Why will any dropzones want me to be a member? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #3 August 29, 2003 If they drop the insurance...and DZ's start to drop the need to have a USPA card... I'll drop my USPA membership like a hot rock..... They are mostly worthless anyway. I'll get a 3 year subscription to "Skydiving" and not miss "Parashitist" at all. I'll send my dues money to the AOPA, they did the lions share of getting us back into the air after 9-11."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #4 August 29, 2003 How about just dropping the demo insurance from the policy? From the editorial it was pretty clear that the reason for the increased rates is because the payouts on demo claims are astronomical compared to general membership. Not trying to screw demo jumpers, but if we're going to lose it all anyway, lets drop demo insurance and try to keep it for general membership. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #5 August 29, 2003 I totally agree... Try and get the Demo insurance on its own policy and make the payments into it equal to the payments for the policy. Sorry if the policy is a half million for the demo jumpers in the rewrite, if you want the insurance (and most demos require it I think) then your choice is to either pay up, or get your own outside insurance. Hate to see Demo jumpers get screwed but what choice is there at this point?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #6 August 29, 2003 Not an option... The two policies are connected. In fact, (from my understanding) the general membership policy is actually a "perfered rate" rider to the Demo policy... They will not exist apart from each other... and without one, the premium for the other is close enough to the current cost...it still wouldn't be feasable. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #7 August 29, 2003 The simple answer for many/most of us is something we're already doing. The liability portion of your homeowner's/renter's insurance is probably in the 100-500 thousand dollar range and should cover any 3rd party situations you find yourself in. If you rent and don't have the insurance, get it...it's like 10 bucks a month for $30,000 property/$100,000 liability through State Farm. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #8 August 29, 2003 All I have to say is that if we are no longer afforded that insurance coverage, then our dues better be going DOWN soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #9 August 29, 2003 QuoteThe simple answer for many/most of us is something we're already doing. The liability portion of your homeowner's/renter's insurance is probably in the 100-500 thousand dollar range and should cover any 3rd party situations you find yourself in. If you rent and don't have the insurance, get it...it's like 10 bucks a month for $30,000 property/$100,000 liability through State Farm. Blues, Dave *** You may want to check with the actual policy underwriter... Unless you have some hybred coverage I'm not currently aware of... I'll bet you will find your Skydiving activities are not covered by your renters liability. ...Some NHRA or NASCAR guy tried that one a few years back...no joy! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #10 August 29, 2003 QuoteAll I have to say is that if we are no longer afforded that insurance coverage, then our dues better be going DOWN soon. *** Chuck... Any chance you can put in a good word for us all... with the DOD? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #11 August 29, 2003 QuoteAll I have to say is that if we are no longer afforded that insurance coverage, then our dues better be going DOWN soon. If they drop the insurance, And the DZ's drop the requirment to have it...I'll drop my USPA membership. I'll join the AOPA...They do more for general aviation than the USPA 100 times over. We are general aviation...we are AOPA!!!!!!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #12 August 29, 2003 QuoteI'll join the AOPA... Quote I'm already a member... Magazine is boring. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #13 August 29, 2003 QuoteI'm already a member... Magazine is boring. I kinda like AOPA pilot. But my point is if USPA drops the insurance...DZ's will drop them. When DZ's drop them...A bunch of folks will drop the USPA."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #14 August 29, 2003 QuoteI'll send my dues money to the AOPA, they did the lions share of getting us back into the air after 9-11. I'm already an AOPA member even though I don't currently own a airplane. They are the only aviation organization with effective lobbying power on Capital Hill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #15 August 29, 2003 I'll have an attorney draft an additional paragraph in my "Assumption of Risk" waiver that states something to the effect of: I_________________ understand that any accidents or injuries are my sole financial responsibility and not the responsibility of the drop zone, its... etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #16 August 29, 2003 QuoteI'll have an attorney draft an additional paragraph in my "Assumption of Risk" waiver that states something to the effect of: I_________________ understand that any accidents or injuries are my sole financial responsibility and not the responsibility of the drop zone, its... etc. *** Not a bad idea at all!!! I wonder if a waiver on that order might be all that a DZO would require? It would make their end of it a lot simpler! Good point!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #17 August 29, 2003 QuoteI'll have an attorney draft an additional paragraph in my "Assumption of Risk" waiver that states something to the effect of: I_________________ understand that any accidents or injuries are my sole financial responsibility and not the responsibility of the drop zone, its... etc. That wouldn't really protect you. If an innocent bystander is injured, a skydiver signing the above won't do you any good. The innocent person didn't agree to only hold the individual skydiver responsible. They could and would go after the dz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #18 August 29, 2003 I haven't talked to the underwriters, I'm just going by what the agents have told me. However, marginally related, I had a friend lose her main/freebag/handles once, and State Farm renter's insurance (the same policy) did pay her replacement cost (new, list price), minus the $250 deductible. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #19 August 29, 2003 Quote They could and would go after the dz. Quote Kill Joy ! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 August 29, 2003 QuoteI haven't talked to the underwriters, I'm just going by what the agents have told me. However, marginally related, I had a friend lose her main/freebag/handles once, and State Farm renter's insurance (the same policy) did pay her replacement cost (new, list price), minus the $250 deductible. Blues, Dave That's a property loss, not liability coverage. Could be handled completely differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #21 August 29, 2003 QuoteNot an option... The two policies are connected. In fact, (from my understanding) the general membership policy is actually a "perfered rate" rider to the Demo policy... I didn't get that impression from the article. It seemed to me that by joining the policies, we got a lower rate combined, but I didn't see where it said they can not exist severally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #22 August 29, 2003 Quote I'm just going by what the agents have told me. Quote I appreciate the input! But from the underwriters and actuary risk assessment people I've conversed with... Actually collecting on a claim that you may be 'responsible due to negligence' for, especially when talking in those dollar ranges...would be a stretch. Of course...your mileage may vary! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #23 August 29, 2003 QuoteThat's a property loss, not liability coverage. Could be handled completely differently. True, that's why I said "marginally related", since the two coverages were packaged together. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #24 August 29, 2003 Quote but I didn't see where it said they can not exist severally. Quote That's the answer I got from various individuals within the executive committee. It's my understanding that no one will at this time write a strictly "General Membership" policy. And "General Insurance" the current policy holder knows it has us over a barrel.. The estimated premium for the single General Membership Policy, Is close enough to the total we're now paying... that on practical terms it still wouldn't be a feasible option. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #25 August 29, 2003 PhillyKev... Do you by chance have a background in law? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
