Solo freefly, group RW?

[MarkM 0]

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and what can she learn from solo FreeFly Jumps? NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why can't you use the solo time to learn how your body reacts to doing different things in the airflow?

[meltdown 0]

I'm like you. I often can't find people to jump with, or can't hang with the complicated thing they're doing, so I just go by myself and work on my sitfly, which is getting reasonably stable. I do, however, much prefer to jump with others and will jump (haha) at any chance I get to join a group. It's tough working on belly skills alone with no reference point.

[kallend 1,935]

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You know to each his on, but CanuckINUSA reply seems like old school thinking.

Most of the progressive ff don't seem to have the idea that rw people live in fear of "losing another skydiver to ff..."

She should work at all of it, but don't buy into the rw vrs ff thing. There no them against us.

Which reminds me, I just heard that Rook did a 3 point 20 way RW for his 9,000th jump.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Hi, Kelly!

I have read the replies on here, and it seems to be an argument over what you should do. I think you need to do what YOU want to do! Seriously. If you don't feel comfortable enough on your belly yet, then go play with belly flying. That said, I don't think you should be required to turn a 16pt 4-way or get on a 20-way rw jump in order to start freeflying. Can you flail and get back to your belly? That is the most important thing, because with freeflying you will spend some time flailing, and some time on your back. So, go do a solo, and maybe just practice flailing and then getting back to belly. Until you can do it with minimum recovery time. Tumble, try to sit, etc. Until you know you can get back to belly, cut out all the fun shit at 6-7k and work to get back to belly and stay there stable until pull time. Once you have mastered returning to your belly from flailing, I think you're ready to try freefly! These are just my opinions and thoughts. Just a little background, I started freeflying at -30 jumps. So, no, I probably can't get a slot and turn points on a 12 way, but that's not what my goals are, so IDGAF!

Kramer wrote :

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IMO there is obviously something going on in that you have 51 jumps and no "A" license. There is no reason for this at all. The tasks are not that hard. They just require focus. The fact that no-one has helped you complete the card is totally BOGUS! That is my personal opinion.

And, he's right. You should have everything signed off and have your licence by now. If you are having trouble under canopy, make that a focus. Get some canopy coaching. I can't even begin to tell you how important it is! Freeflying and turning points aren't likely to save your life one day.... canopy coaching may! And, don't think that because you don't have your license, you can't try other dzs. I went to 3 dzs in Florida before I got my license in z-hills at 23 jumps.

Take care, and have fun! There's probably no reason you can't play around with ff a bit in the sky. I'm not sure you're actually allowed to ff b4 getting you a-license, though. There may be some techincalities there. Either way... there's no rules against flailing!

Angela.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

No opinion whatsoever. I will however relay a situation of a fellow jumper (I've jumped with him, nice guy) with probably about your jump number, maybe a smidge less, who did a solo sit on Wednesday when I did a 3-way...

Back at the jump center, he was visibly shaken and said that he had 'lost control' for what seemed like 2,000 feet of freefall...could not get back on his belly for anything. Freaked him out; he didn't jump again that day. Thankfully he lost control almost immediately, and so had time to pull himself together before pull time...

Like I said, I have no opinion as I don't have any right to one. I'm not an instructor. I'm just passing on an experience that shook up a great guy that I like jumping with, in the hopes that you might prevent it -how, I have no idea, but it's something to think about.

PS He's had his A for a couple of months, and has done at least 1 sit attempt prior, maybe 2? I'm unsure. Whatever you do, just stay safe.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Like I said, I have no opinion as I don't have any right to one. I'm not an instructor.

you don't have to be an instructor to have an OPINION.

You have as much right to your opinion as the next guy. If the opinion you have formed in this case is that people should not try to sit fly until xxx # of jumps because your friend so-and-so could not get stable, than I think it is a valid opinion. As long as you relay that you have no actual experience with it, there is not reason not to express your opinion.

I'm sure your friend's problem is not uncommon. Everyone learns at a different pace. Some newer jumpers can likely keep a cool head in a scary situation, then there will be others that will flail and freak.

Precisely why I think spending some time flailing isn't such a bad idea... but, what would I know, i'm not an instructor or anything

Angela.

[darkwing 5]

There is lots to learn doing just 2-way. You can get practice doing every aspect of belly flying. In fact, you will learn more and faster doing most 2-way than you will just hanging in an 8-way waiting for number 9 to get in.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Stumpy 284]

I'm in a similar position to Kelly - and i read this post with interest. A couple of people have said there are positions which it is harder to get back to belly. I can do back or front flips and stuff like that, but how can i do a drill to get myself into a position from which it is a bit harder to get stable again? (flailing?) (Obviously I will try this high to make sure i have plenty of time to sort myself out)

Sorry to hijack the thread but i thought its kind of relevant.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[benny 0]

I for one know that there are plenty of guys just waiting to get in on any-way with Kelly... I'll get my "A" ASAP and then I'l organize any number you want Kel

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I am not sure I can answer this with any certainty. But, here are my thoughts... it is probably a good idea to maybe jump out in a ball, tumble around, open one leg, one arm up, see what happens. You're probably gonna keep rolling, but sideways. I can't tell you what positions to get into. These are not front loops, back loops, we're talking flailing here. go out and try to do a split, touch your toes, I dunno, go wild. haha. Get on your back, figure out how to spin, get into a fast spin, then try to stop it and flip and arch.

Like I said, I really don't know what the most difficult position to recover to belly from is. But, I think the really IMPORTANT thing is that if you're out of control, you can gain it. So, do what you can to get yourself out of control (see above), then, try to recover. Of course, do this high.

Have fun! Flailing is a blast! :D
Angela.

edit to add : Anyone reading this: TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK! If you cannot immediately recover from a front/back loop, or from a spinning barrel roll... you should not be going farther until you can. Always a good idea to ask your instructor for their thoughts, too! I am not an instructor.

[Stumpy 284]

Tee hee - sounds like fun. Roll on the weekend!!!!!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Stumpy 284]

Oh - its only Monday.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[CanuckInUSA 0]

There is a reason why AFF instructors have their students do flips during their initial training and it has nothing to do with determining if the student is acrobatic. It has everything to do with building confidence in the student that they know how to recover when they get unstable. But once the prospective new freeflier knows how to recover when things go really bad (like at pull time), the last thing we want new freefliers to do is to go to their bellies if and when they get unstable. Can you say cork? I knew you could (said in my best Mr Rogers voice).

Now if anyone is unsure of their ability to get stable at anytime during the skydive (especially pull time), then freeflying is NOT something we want them doing. But once they have built that confidence, then it's time to teach people to ball up when they start to cork.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I was talking pre-freefly. I thought I mentioned that, but sometimes I forget the important stuff, hehe.

Of course during a freefly jump, if you get unstable, you want to get into a sit. But, if someone goes out on a solo to try to freefly, then get unstable and freak out and lose a bunch of altitude, then need to be able to get to their bellies.

I would never go on a freefly jump and go to belly if unstable. I didn't mean to make it sound as if that was the thing to do. OTOH, If I were new, and got really unstable, and never had a sit to begin with, then I couldn't very well recover to it from serious instability, could I?

Like I said, i'm not an instructor. The only person I have experience with is me. And, I got sitfly pretty quickly. But, if I had gotten out of control, I like to think that i'd have been able to get to belly. It doesn't hurt to go out and get unstable, it builds confidence that it won't hurt you and there is always a recovery.... plus, it's fun. I still do it sometimes:)

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Now if anyone is unsure of their ability to get stable at anytime during the skydive (especially pull time), then freeflying is NOT something we want them doing. But once they have built that confidence, then it's time to teach people to ball up when they start to cork.

Absolutely!

Angela.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe I wasn't clear. I was talking pre-freefly. I thought I mentioned that, but sometimes I forget the important stuff, hehe.

No problem-o ... I was confident that you knew to ball up. I just wanted any prospective new freefliers to know that when jumping with others, it's very very very bad to go to your belly when you get unstable. If they still have that instinct, then they need to continue doing solo jumps until they break that bad habit.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[marks 0]

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HOT DAMN!!!! A 2-way!! YEAH!!! Instead of doing your solo's, grab the 2-way. You can and do learn a lot from them. Just because there is only 2 people in the formation does not mean that you do not learn anything. How are you exits - IC, OC, Point, Tail? How do you dive? How is your fall-rate? Can you match someone who "floats" on you and then all of the sudden "sinks" on you? How are your 180s? 90s? 360s? Do you really stay in place or are you backsliding away from the other person? Are you able to cat on the person? Side body on the person?

Done ALL of that. In mantis and boxman. I'm not very aggressive, from what I've been told, though. I really need to learn to drive at people when docking and what not. But I don't reach!

And I mean, the best I can HOPE FOR is a two-way. Usually I am the ONLY bellyflier on the load, or the more experienced ones aren't too keen on taking me out, b/c they want to jump with their friends.

Ok, I'm gonna start working on it, though. Solo freefly, and group RW. Sounds fun to me . . .

Kelly

kelly kelly kelly..... i believe it was 2 weekends ago. you were doing a two way belly fly with somone and i asked you if you wanted to try a hybrid on the next load....2 way belly. you with a coach and me hanging...

and you said no..... i was extreamly hurt... lol... as i was just trying to peak your interest.!

[kelel01 1]

I know, but Jorge said no. You plan the dive, dive the plan. I'm trying to be a good little student.

Mark, you wanna help a sista out?

Kelly

[marks 0]

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I know, but Jorge said no. You plan the dive, dive the plan. I'm trying to be a good little student.

Mark, you wanna help a sista out?

Kelly

well i wasnt talkin about the load you were on.. i was askin about the next load.......

i will work with you if you want.... a license... i already offered that..... and well if you want to learn belly... i can belly fly my ass off...... if you want to lear to freefly.. i can help you with that too,.... if yo need to learn a little canopy controll then i can help with that also...... i will let you know when the next time i will be down there.... not this weekend but maybee the weekend after that... we will get you your a license and also we will make you 100% interested in wanting to learn everything about skydiving...

[kelel01 1]

Dude, I couldn't hear you in that porter or caravan or whatever the hell that was.

I want to do one now! Does that make a difference? And damnit! I'm going to Mardi Gras next weekend. You need to come to SDA all the time.

Kelly

[marks 0]

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Dude, I couldn't hear you in that porter or caravan or whatever the hell that was.

I want to do one now! Does that make a difference? And damnit! I'm going to Mardi Gras next weekend. You need to come to SDA all the time.

Kelly

but you heard what i was singing..!!!.... oh ya... what was that? i forgot..

it was a caravan.... lol.....

hindsight is 20/20...

like i said... i was just tryin to peak your interest.... i know where and when it gets boring....

just dont give up..... and you will be rewarded...



p.s. what does this mean????

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If you start to feel faint, just put your head between my knees.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Like I said, I have no opinion as I don't have any right to one. I'm not an instructor.

you don't have to be an instructor to have an OPINION.

You have as much right to your opinion as the next guy. If the opinion you have formed in this case is that people should not try to sit fly until xxx # of jumps because your friend so-and-so could not get stable, than I think it is a valid opinion. As long as you relay that you have no actual experience with it, there is not reason not to express your opinion.

I'm sure your friend's problem is not uncommon. Everyone learns at a different pace. Some newer jumpers can likely keep a cool head in a scary situation, then there will be others that will flail and freak.

Precisely why I think spending some time flailing isn't such a bad idea... but, what would I know, i'm not an instructor or anything

Angela.

Thanks for that, Angela!

I know most people would check profiles and all before thinking any suggestion is the perfect idea, but just in case someone didn't check mine...all I'm doing is bringing up 'happenings', and I think as long as everyone realizes that, I won't feel bad about bringing them up for review.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[jmpnkramer 0]

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I just wanted any prospective new freefliers to know that when jumping with others, it's very very very bad to go to your belly when you get unstable. If they still have that instinct, then they need to continue doing solo jumps until they break that bad habit.

This statement proves that Free Fliers are just as bad if not worse than most good Belly Fliers.

Instead of saying go do a solo why don't you try to give pointers to the up and coming? Make a couple of jumps with them. Help them learn. Show them that they are welcomed.

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No I am not an instructor and I'm not sure if I ever will be one (in case you have never figured this out, not everyone is interested in teaching students)

You say this in one post. Yet this in another.

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There is a reason why AFF instructors have their students do flips during their initial training and it has nothing to do with determining if the student is acrobatic. It has everything to do with building confidence in the student that they know how to recover when they get unstable.

This is explaining and instructing. Even though you are trying to do it to a licensed skydiver it is the same thing.

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once the new skydiver is licensed, they are on their own.

If you see that at your DZ then why don't you see what the person might be interested in and try to help them out instead of ignoring them.

It is funny how when Free Flying first started out it was because the flat flyers were ASSHOLES. That may have been true at some places but most of the flat flyers I know were pretty cool when I was still learning. Oh, and I learned from some World Champions at the time.

Of course now we see Free Flyers doing the same exact thing to newbies trying to learn. No-One wants to help them along. They just want them to go figure it out and come back when they can hold at least a sit. Even then that is not good enough.

A bunch of damn hypocrites I say. I have seen and yes some DZ's are clickish but not all. If it is possible a new jumper should avoid those places.

How can the sport thrive when no-one wants to help unless they are getting paid to do so?

Kelly can tell you that I have tried to help her. All I want is for her to get a license so that she can move more freely at her own wish without the hassle.

I started jumping a long time ago. Things are much more stringent now and a license is a must.

Another thing is that a person should become proficient at certain things before moving on to another. The Basics must come first.


Laters,

.

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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You should have everything signed off and have your licence by now. If you are having trouble under canopy, make that a focus. Get some canopy coaching.

Jesus, Kelly. I agree with Jmpnkramer and Angela...you really should have your "A" license by now. I read that you are having accuracy problems, but I seriously can't imagine a good enough reason why you would not have it by now if you are putting forth the effort.

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And, don't think that because you don't have your license, you can't try other dzs. I went to 3 dzs in Florida before I got my license in z-hills at 23 jumps.

Again, agreed. My home DZ closed down when I had 14 jumps. I tracked down one of my old instructors and had him sign off what he could. Then, I worked hard to find the perfect DZ afterwards...first Perris, then Elsinore. At first, I was terrified of the change, especially when I had my 2nd cutaway as a student at Perris after having one as a student at my old DZ (2 diff. malfunctions, 2 diff. rigs, 2 diff. packers)

Kelly, I made a point of telling the school at Perris that I wanted to pay for coached jumps in order to fill out my yellow card. When I first jumped at Perris, I even had to switch from the ripcord that I had learned on to the throw-out. Still, by the time that I had my 20th jump, I had all my requirements for my "A" license. If I can do it, then so can you! Good luck, sweetie! I hope to see you with your "A" at the Mardi Gras Boogie.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You slam me because you say I am instructing here but I am not an instructor (and you are right I am not an instructor). But then you slam me saying that I won't help people but turn around and tell me that I should jump with people and help them. Maybe some of what I say shows signs of hyprocracy, but guess what you're doing the same.

I have done enough jumps where some prospective freeflier says that they can hold a stable sit, yet when we get up there in the air, they cork all over the place and I spend my entire skydive falling on my back. Hey unlike some people, I have to pay for my jumps and these jumps are just a waste of time and money. Is this a good attitude? Of course not, but it's my time and my money I see being wasted. Am I not allowed to have some sort of opinion on how to spend my time and my money? Newbies need people to jump with and I am happy to mix good jumps with newbie jumps, but not all jumps are created equal and I have reached the stage of my jumping career where I'd like to make the most of my jumps. Is it wrong to feel that way? After all I am nothing more than a fun jumper at my DZ, where fun jumpers are pretty much at the bottom of the food chain.

Anyway, in case you skimmed over much of the early posts in this thread, I think you may be confusing me a little here. Why I personally have little interest in doing RW jumps right now, I do believe that new skydivers need to spend time on their bellies. Learning to fly relative to others even on your belly is not easy and learning to freefly is not easy. And when a newbie tries to mix the two together at the same time, often they struggle for longer than they should. I know in my early days, I struggled and I only over came it by doing a lot of jumps in a short time period. But in Kelly's case when she's faced with doing a solo belly, what's the harm in her wanting to try and get some what proficient in her sit? After all, most of us do NOT have access to World Champions at our home DZs who are willing to teach us RW skills.

We're on different sides of the fence. But believe it or not, I'm not here to argue.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jmpnkramer 0]

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You slam me because you say I am instructing here but I am not an instructor (and you are right I am not an instructor).

I am not slamming you.

What I said was that you say you do not wish to instruct but in essence you are.

Hey believe me I know jumps are money. I pay for all of my jumps unless I am taking an actual student for the school.

I do however set aside time to take a new person under my wing and make a couple of jumps with them or introduce them to someone who will. I also tell them that I will be going to play with the more experienced after a couple of jumps. You mean to tell me that if a person wanted to learn how to sit you could not spend two jumps with them?

I am in no-way against freeflying. I have done some.

All I am saying is to take time to learn one thing at a time. If you try to add to much to the mix it won't come out right and the individual ends up getting discouraged.

I will say that Kelly is just being extra hard on herself. She has told me what is lacking on that card. The only reason she has not com,leted it is because she is looking to be perfect with every jump which just does not happen. I don't care how damn good you are it does not happen.

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After all, most of us do NOT have access to World Champions at our home DZs who are willing to teach us RW skills.

I did a bunch of travelling while I was on active duty and just got extra lucky. I know not everyone does not have the same opportunity. I was just fortunate. I am now a permanent at Z-Hills and yes there are champions here in both Free-Flying and Formation.

I also hate to hear of someone having a bad experience here because we have a wide range of organizers to suit every level. I try to find out what happened so that it can be corrected.

Anyway, I am not argueing either. Just showing you that sometimes giving advice is the same as instructing.


Laters,


.

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES