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kelel01

Solo freefly, group RW?

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I want to start learning to freefly, but people keep saying I need to "master" belly. First of all, what is "mastery"? Secondly, it's extremely hard to do so when there are no bellyfliers out in the winter. The most I can hope for is a 2-way.

Is it ridiculously dangerous for me to start to attempt solo sit-flying when I have to do solos? I am getting bored with solo bellyflying. And then anytime I manage to get a group for RW, I could continue working on "mastering" bellyflying?

Thoughts?

Kelly

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That's what I did. I couldn't find people to jump with, so I taught myself how to sit fly (and still trying to learn as well). I go back and forth between the disciplines, depending on who is around that I can jump with.

Good luck to you.

kristen
swooo #3 MB #3587 P.M.S. #66
"so let go, jump in...what're you waiting for? it's all right 'cause there's beauty in the breakdown"

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First of all I know nothing (onl 50 jumps) so take advice from more experienced people, but the typical reason for “mastering” belly flying is that it is ultimately the basic position of stability. Freeflying is great but you are putting yourself in awkward positions and need to be able to revert to stability before pull time. My opinion (see my first sentence) is that working on basic freeflying is okay but make sure obtaining a good stable belly flying position is not a problem well before pull time. I don’t see anything unreasonable with working on a little freeflying when you are doing solo jumps but don’t neglect opportunities to improve your bellyflying also as it really is the base of all skydiving.

Most of all have fun and be safe.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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First of all, what is "mastery"?



"mastery" is different for everyone. for some is 10 coached belly jumps, knowing how to go forward backward, slide left,right, speed up, slow down, track,... all the basic stuff.
for others it's minimum 5 points in 4-way

It depends on you how good would you like to be at belly flying.

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The most I can hope for is a 2-way.



That's just perfect. you don't wanna start learning belly flying in 4 way. First you gotta learn the basics.

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Is it ridiculously dangerous for me to start to attempt solo sit-flying when I have to do solos?



Huh i started freeflying (sit flying) at 25th jump and i'm still alive ;). The only thing that is dangerous is that you can slide up or down the flight line. So before you start practicing turn 90degrees to the flight line.
The other thing at solo learning freefly are bad habits. but with this forum, you can hear about all bad habits and be aware not to get used to them.

Another thing why it's good to master belly fly at first (or so they say), is because it's easier, and you'll be happier, because you can learn something on you belly at least 10 times faster than on your ass,... err i mean sit flying :$ ;)

but i started sit flying before i "mastered" belly flying, so i'll stop lecturing. Just tell the dzo what you'll be doing in the air and ask a looot of questions. :)
"George just lucky i guess!"

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The most I can hope for is a 2-way.



HOT DAMN!!!! A 2-way!! YEAH!!! Instead of doing your solo's, grab the 2-way. You can and do learn a lot from them. Just because there is only 2 people in the formation does not mean that you do not learn anything. How are you exits - IC, OC, Point, Tail? How do you dive? How is your fall-rate? Can you match someone who "floats" on you and then all of the sudden "sinks" on you? How are your 180s? 90s? 360s? Do you really stay in place or are you backsliding away from the other person? Are you able to cat on the person? Side body on the person?

Get the picture? :)
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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I want to start learning to freefly



Then get out there and do some solo sit jumps. Once you believe that you're not corky all over the sky (don't worry, virtually every goes through this phase), then try to go do a sit jump with a more experienced freeflier and they will let you know if you are backsliding (once again, don't worry as most people also go through that phase).

Learning to freefly is hard just as learning to fly relative to others (ie: belly jumps) is also hard and to do the two at the same time is difficult. But to say that you have to master RW before you freefly is wrong.

One thing to keep in mind when doing these initial solo freeflying jumps is to align yourself perpendicular to the flight line. This way if you are sliding in the sky, you're not sliding into someone else's airspace. By the way, while it is possible to slide great distances across the sky in a sit, it's usually when people are learning headdown that this is a greater problem.

Good luck and keep us posted. Freeflying is like dancing in the sky. B|


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Learn to belly fly. But, don't limit yourself. IMO... there's nothing wrong with trying a solo sitfly once you get the basics down. Remeber... alititude awareness becomes a different story when you switch orientations. Use an audible. And don't forget to breathe. :)

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You could also spend a little time with a freefly coach who would be experienced with corking and flailing freefliers. A little bit of information and technique goes a long way when you're first learning to freefly. Be safe though solos are one thing, teaming up with another inexperienced freeflier could be disasterous.


I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky

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HOT DAMN!!!! A 2-way!! YEAH!!! Instead of doing your solo's, grab the 2-way. You can and do learn a lot from them. Just because there is only 2 people in the formation does not mean that you do not learn anything. How are you exits - IC, OC, Point, Tail? How do you dive? How is your fall-rate? Can you match someone who "floats" on you and then all of the sudden "sinks" on you? How are your 180s? 90s? 360s? Do you really stay in place or are you backsliding away from the other person? Are you able to cat on the person? Side body on the person?



Done ALL of that. In mantis and boxman. I'm not very aggressive, from what I've been told, though. I really need to learn to drive at people when docking and what not. But I don't reach!

And I mean, the best I can HOPE FOR is a two-way. Usually I am the ONLY bellyflier on the load, or the more experienced ones aren't too keen on taking me out, b/c they want to jump with their friends. [:/]

Ok, I'm gonna start working on it, though. Solo freefly, and group RW. Sounds fun to me . . .

Kelly

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Done ALL of that. In mantis and boxman. I'm not very aggressive, from what I've been told, though. I really need to learn to drive at people when docking and what not. But I don't reach!



Sweetie...you may have done all of that but there is so much more to it. There are a ton of 2 way drills out there to work on. And with 51 jumps (hell...even with my 232 jumps - actually no matter how many jumps you have), there is always something to learn and get better at.

And, if the RW people at your DZ are not willing to take some time away to work with you and help you increase your skills, maybe you need to look at another DZ. Or if need be, see if a coach would be willing to jump with you - and maybe give you a break on what they charge you.

Personally, I wouldn't start freeflying with as little experience as you have. I'd give yourself more time and concentrate on what you need now to finish getting your license.

(Side note: As far as freeflying goes, I've done 10 sitfly jumps. Have had a ton of fun learning and laughing at myself as I've done those jumps and have had some experienced freeflyers with me on every jump that got to laugh as well. :D And, yes, I will eventually do more freeflying, but I still have a ton to learn with RW.)
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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Sweetie...you may have done all of that but there is so much more to it. There are a ton of 2 way drills out there to work on. And with 51 jumps (hell...even with my 232 jumps - actually no matter how many jumps you have), there is always something to learn and get better at.



Oh, yeah, that's not what I meant. I know that you can never do something too many times, but when I'm out there all alone, it just gets old. Believe me, I'm not completely leaving my belly for "the dark side", not even close. I just want to branch out and work on BOTH.

That's why I question the use of the term "mastered". How many people with even 1000 jumps would say they have "mastered" 4-way or 8-way RW. It just seems like a completely unrealistic term to me. To me, no one can truly master anything. Know what I mean? But how much experience is enough to move on to something new?

Kelly

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In my mind (OPINION) I see a natural skydiving progress. Just as you learn the most basic skills first in your Student Training, seems that likewise you should learn the most basic skills first as you progress past your student Status. Heck, everyone can take that a Different way - just use your head.

I always thought it was funny to see people who can sit and move around in a sit at 70 jumps, but can't even stay relative in a group RW dive - just seems backasswards to me......
=========Shaun ==========


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I always thought it was funny to see people who can sit and move around in a sit at 70 jumps, but can't even stay relative in a group RW dive



lol, almost 600 jumps and if I do an unlinked exit on a 4-way I'll probably get 1 maybe 2 points if I'm lucky ;) - I just haven't done any flat fly so the skills have completely gone. Dreading when I start flat flying again - gonna have to get in the tunnel and have all my limbs broken and reset in the correct position:)My sit and stand is rock solid though - just very slow:(

To the girl who wants to FF - get a brief off the local FF coach on position and safety. Also let your local S&TA, CCI (whatever its called where u r) know what u r doing and get out there. And remember to get those legs down!!

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Might be a bit UK-specific for you, but the principles probably apply:

DZs over here don't let anyone freefly (technically even sols) until they've either got WARP 7 (launch 2-way, 2xside-ins, back-in, return to f2f, wave off, turn, track) or WARP 10 (Cat 10/FS1) which goes through 3-ways to a 4 point 4-way. The reason for this was explained to me by my coaches: it teaches basic survival skills flying, especially relative to others. Let's face it, freeflying with others (including a coach!) is potentially more dangerous! :o You will want to do it; it's good to be able to at least do that flat-flying first!

Besides, to get our FF1 qualification, you need the equivalent of at least WARP 7 to fulfil all the requirements!

That's not to say that you cannot practice free-flying when solo: I'd suggest that you keep changing your heading; you won't be as aware on your first few freefly jumps and if you do start backsliding under people, at least you'll backslide back away from them later! ;)

Well, that was the advice given to me - and it's what I'm planning to do! B|

Just wish I could get my 4-ways together - I promised myself that I'd get that sorted before I "crossed over"... ;)

However, I know nothing...
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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I question the use of the term "mastered".



Can you get on your belly no matter what happens to you or a situation that someone else might put you in.

I say at 51 jumps "HELL NO" I guarantee that Ron or myself could get you in a situation where you would have a hard time getting on your belly.

I am not saying don't try it. I can sit rather well when I want to.

The Truth is it does not matter whether you sit or belly. Solo's Suck and they teach very little if anything at all. I help people for free. That is the way I learned and therefore I try to pass it along to others.

You cannot mean to tell me that no-one at your DZ wants to jump with you. If that is the case then you need to switch DZ's to a more student friendly place.

IMO there is obviously something going on in that you have 51 jumps and no "A" license. There is no reason for this at all. The tasks are not that hard. They just require focus. The fact that no-one has helped you complete the card is totally BOGUS! That is my personal opinion.

Maybe you should concentrate on the areas you need for your license versus trying to do new things when technically according to the USPA you are still a student.

If all you need is accuracy then do Hop'N'Pop's until you get accuracy down.

If no-one will help you there then come back to Z-Hills. I know people were helping you here. You are more than welcome to crash at the Condo.


Laters,


.
The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

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I have a few observations about this thread so far (and I'm not saying I'm right or wrong).

First off, it's no surprise that the freefliers are telling Kelly that sure it's okay come out and try some freeflying while the RW people are saying, no don't do it. You're not ready, you're not experienced, you need to continue working on your belly skills. But while the freefliers may not know the entire circumstances of Kelly's proficiency, personally I don't think the RW people are listening to what she's saying (and maybe it's because they feel threatened that they will lose another skydiver to freeflying). Well guess what folks, did you look at her profile? What is listed as Kelly's #1 interest? That's right, it lists Freeflying. Plus, she has mentioned that there are few belly fliers hanging around her DZ right now and that she's bored of doing solo belly jumps (and who after 50-100 jumps wouldn't). Plus she's mentioned that she doesn't intend to just giving up RW jumps (unlike a certain person who shall remain nameless, but is voicing his two cents this very second :)). She's just looking for a change of pace and is interested in people's view points as to whether it is okay to start freeflying.

Now there's been some good advice given on both sides of the fence, but not all DZs are the same. Some DZs have a heavy influence of RW people and some have a heavy influence of freefliers and some just couldn't care about either discipline as the only thing that matters is pumping out the tandems, converting those tandems into students and then let the students fumble through the early days of their skydiving careers with little or no guidance. Plus we know that regardless of which skill you do, most DZs are clicky. I see it all the time at my DZ. New jumpers come through (just as I was not long ago), they have the right intentions of wanting to learn RW (I know I did at one point), but either there are no RW jumpers to join and/or there are no mentors. So what's a person to do? Spend their entire jumping career doing nothing but belly solos? Falling on your belly may appeal to you, but for some of us, it's just down right boring. And if you don't like that statement, deal with it. :P

I personally think that Kelly should start talking to the more experienced freefliers at her DZ about her desire to learn, start doing some solos, and get in on the belly jumps when the opportunity arises. Plus whenever possible Kelly, try to get in on some tracking dives as that is a great skill to have no matter what discipline you choose. If she will only be doing solo belly jumps, will she remain interested in the sport and what skills can she learn? People evolve, sports evolve and freeflying is only taking human flight to the next step. Obviously someone who is proficient at all disciplines is the most rounded skydiver. But if one has interests and goals, why restrict them and tell them they can only do this sort of skydiving (especially when that sort of skydiving isn't even available at all DZs).

It's time to jump out of the nest and start flying Kelly. You will struggle at times (as most people do), but with the right amount of dedication, hopefully some coaching, you can over come the challenges and you won't regret it. Freeflying rocks!!!

Okay, now let the RW Nazi flaming begin.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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:D:D I think you mistake concern for Kelly's well being and safety as being an RW nazi. I certainly think that she should learn to FF as well as do CRW. Why limit yourself to one aspect of the sport? Why not play and have fun and learn.

When she can not even get her A license because at 51 jumps she has not completed her requirements, there is a problem that needs to be addressed BEFORE she starts FF. That is where there are some issues and concerns.

She's limited as to which DZ's she can go to as she doesn't have the requirements or equivalent for an A license. She's stuck as a student. Who cares if a DZ is mainly FF's or RW or???? That's not the issue.

The issue and concern here is a student who is trying to get into FF.
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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I do agree that she needs to get her "A" proficiency card signed off as it's preventing her from venturing away from her safety nest (her home DZ). And I'm not sure what this hasn't happened yet. Is that because there is a lack of coaches at her DZ or is there a fundamental flaw with her skydiving? I don't know?


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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I do agree that she needs to get her "A" proficiency card signed off as it's preventing her from venturing away from her safety nest (her home DZ). And I'm not sure what this hasn't happened yet. Is that because there is a lack of coaches at her DZ or is there a fundamental flaw with her skydiving? I don't know?



I know she doesn't have the requirements signed off. Not sure as to why they aren't signed off as I haven't jumped with her nor seen her jump nor am I at her home DZ.
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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I don't think the RW people are listening to what she's saying (and maybe it's because they feel threatened that they will lose another skydiver to freeflying). Well guess what folks, did you look at her profile? What is listed as Kelly's #1 interest? That's right, it lists Freeflying.



I could care less which discipline she chooses. Like you said you do not know all of the circumstances.

I am concerned about her safety and the safety of others.

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If she will only be doing solo belly jumps, will she remain interested in the sport and what skills can she learn?



and what can she learn from solo FreeFly Jumps? NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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But if one has interests and goals, why restrict them and tell them they can only do this sort of skydiving



She is only being restricted by the fact that she is not licensed yet. Have you considered that?

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It's time to jump out of the nest and start flying Kelly.



This statement is a prefect example of someone giving advice on here who has no formal instructional training. Telling someone to just go try it and see what happens. Maybe you should hold off on these. Possibly it is you who is afraid that someone might actually become a better well rounded skydiver by learning to belly fly properly first. HMMMMMMMMMMMMM. [:/]

I am not familiar with the particular DZ at which Kelly jumps. I do not know all of the circumstances myself. I will say that she needs to concentrate on the deficiencies before progressing on to new grounds.

Laters,


.
The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

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You know to each his on, but CanuckINUSA reply seems like old school thinking.

Most of the progressive ff don't seem to have the idea that rw people live in fear of "losing another skydiver to ff..."

She should work at all of it, but don't buy into the rw vrs ff thing. There no them against us.

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I have accuracy landing problems (and they're not severe, just not wonderful. But I've also been jumping around between 200, 220, and 230 square foot canopies, due to lack of availability, which doesn't help). I have no other "fundamental flaws" of which I am aware. All canopy control, freefall skills, etc. have been signed off. Just to clarify.

Kelly

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and what can she learn from solo FreeFly Jumps? NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



You mean to say that she can't learn how to get into a sit and not cork? Of course solo skydives are not the best place to learn, but what is she learning when she loses all of her interest in the sport because she has nobody to jump with and can only do solo belly jumps? I guess you choose not to listen to her. There are no belly jumpers hanging around her DZ right now. But maybe she can enlighten us as to what her issues may be concerning getting her "A" signed off? Obviously until that "A" is signed off, she is stuck doing solos and only jumping on loads with coaches and/or instructors.

Oops too late, she already told us. :)

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This statement is a prefect example of someone giving advice on here who has no formal instructional training.



No I am not an instructor and I'm not sure if I ever will be one (in case you have never figured this out, not everyone is interested in teaching students). :P

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Possibly it is you who is afraid that someone might actually become a better well rounded skydiver by learning to belly fly properly first.



I'm not afraid of people learning how to skydive. But not all DZs are created equally when it comes to training. At my DZ there is often little to no opportunity for new skydivers to get what you would refer to as proper training. The only thing that seems to matter is pumping out the tandems and maybe converting a few of those into students as that's even more revenue. But once the new skydiver is licensed, they are on their own. DZs are clicky. It sucks, but that's the reality.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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