faulknerwn 36 #26 December 18, 2003 Quote I trust you've never been in a really serious entanglement or wrap involving cutaway main canopies. More canopies is not a good thing. I would take a lineover or a tension knot on a single reserve canopy at any altitude to some of the stuff I've seen people have to ride in. Without a doubt! And I think anyone who's ever seen some of these videos would agree. Chico was dangling upside down, tied by one leg, while cutting lines. I'd rather be under 1 single canopy not entangled any day! I won't do any sort of skydive without a hook knife. There was a British girl with 20 jumps who used hers to cut her reserve risers when she was dangling from the tail of a plane. There's a video on this site right now of someone using one to cut free a guy dangling by a seat belt. They're not just for reserve malfunctions. My last reserve ride was just on Sunday from a spinning mal - I had a good reserve by 2800. Yes I opened high, but lots of people do. Would I have had time to fight a reserve mal? Heck yeah. And yes, pull altitudes for people can vary greatly depending on the jump. Low, I'd probably spend my efforts controlling the canopy and trying to rear riser stall the line free. Higher, I'd probably just slice both brake lines because the odds are quite good that it is a brake line causing the lineover. I don't jump reserves I can't land on rear risers. Wen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #27 December 18, 2003 QuoteGet information, think it through, really think it through, and do what is best for you. Things change. That is what the old guys will tell you. They are right. *** About 10 years ago..or so! I had a packed in line over on my reserve... My 'then' rigger, video taped all pack jobs 'just in case' and it showed the error that was made... Anyway, It opened and began spinning... The reserve was an F-111 230 sqft. I traced what I thought was the line over and cut... oops.... try again... and once more...! I cut all but 2 lines on the riser group... which would have really been a mess had I kept hacking away! The spin slowed, and I PLF'd it in.I still carry a hook knife.. but have an 'enlightened' view as to it use and purpose! Your point is well taken... and should be considered!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #28 December 18, 2003 QuoteHigher, I'd probably just slice both brake lines because the odds are quite good that it is a brake line causing the lineover. In the BASE world, flying and flaring with one riser and one brake line is a better bet. If you ever think about it, practice flaring with one riser and one brake line. You'll probably be surprised at how much more control you have.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #29 December 18, 2003 QuoteCare to elaborate on that instead of just wasting bandwidth? So youre saying that you're more likely to get a line over on a slider up jump than a slider down jump? Notice I said primarily, as most reefing technology in BASE it appears is originally invented for slider down/off jumps. The slider acts as an awesome reefing device when jumping slider up. I'll be interested to read your comments about this, sky medic. He won't answer you. He never does when it comes right down to backing up something that he apparently has the habit of otherwise just glibly spewing out there, with any sort of meaningful, factual and/or first hand actual knowledge. I wouldn't be holding my breath Andy, if I were you.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #30 December 18, 2003 QuoteI won't do any sort of skydive without a hook knife. My dad taught me from a young age, that carrying a knife is always a good idea. They're handy tools that can help you out in a variety of situations. Remember the guy caught in the rock slide last year that cut off his arm with a pocket knife to escape? I guess that just carried over with me to skydiving, and always make sure my hook knife is available (just in case). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alan 1 #31 December 19, 2003 QuoteI would take a lineover or a tension knot on a single reserve canopy at any altitude to some of the stuff I've seen people have to ride in. QuoteI think you're mistaken on this point, but I'm certainly not arguing for hook knife use at all. QuoteI've had plenty experience with malfunctioning canopies and trust that experience will be in my favor should I find myself in the unfortunate circumstance to need it. QuoteI've not used a hook knife to date and hope it stays that way, though I carry two on every jump and have no reservations about using one. I'm confused as to what your point is or what issue you have with my posts. We seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. I have no problem with the use of a hook knife, but with respect to a reserve mal, and the view point of a non- CRW jump, it would be a last resort. Your comments above seem to me to reflect that. I can't help but feel you have somehow gotten the impression that I have been critical of the use of knives by CReW Dogs and are intent on defending them. That is just not the case. My one and only contention was to question the conventional wisdom of using a reserve lineover/tension knot as one reason to carry a knife. I don't think CRW mals above 3000' are valid evidence for using them on a reserve at 1200'or most likely lower. They are proven as a tool for CRW. I think every JM/I should have one on them in the plane. Each plane should haveone easily accessable. I don't even see why everyone should not have one. I just question the wisdom of some one with little or no mal experience going after one at the first sign of trouble with a reserve. I think I've supported that with sound reasoning and evidence. Readers of the forum are free to give it thought and decide. I certainly did not post with the intention of a sidetracked and protracted debate on the merits of hook knives and I think the numbers speak for themselves.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #32 December 19, 2003 QuoteMy one and only contention was to question the conventional wisdom of using a reserve lineover/tension knot as one reason to carry a knife. ... I just question the wisdom of some one with little or no mal experience going after one at the first sign of trouble with a reserve. Nowhere have I implied someone with little or no experience charge right in with a hook knife at the first sign of reserve trouble. I do think it's a valid option and I gave what I felt was a relevant example to a question you posed. You don't see the relevance and on that we disagree - fair enough. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #33 December 19, 2003 QuoteLow, I'd probably spend my efforts controlling the canopy and trying to rear riser stall the line free. Wendy, can you elaborate on this? I'm familiar with cycling the steering line to try clearing a line over. How do you use a rear riser stall to do it? In your opinion is rear riser or toggle a better way to approach this? Or are they just different? I'm not sure if you're talking about using a rear riser stall to clear a lined over steering line, or just to try and clear a lined over suspension (non-control) line. Thanks!-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #34 December 19, 2003 Quote I'm familiar with cycling the steering line to try clearing a line over. How do you use a rear riser stall to do it? In your opinion is rear riser or toggle a better way to approach this? Or are they just different? I've never actually has a line-over that was more than over a corner, so I don't have personal experience, but I have seen more than 1 cleared on CRW jumps. My thought is that anything you do to partially collapse the side of the canopy where the lineover is might help to clear it. Rear riser stalls are a lot less violent than toggle stalls, and since you're pulling down on the whole side of the canopy, as opposed to just one line, it seems like it would give a better chance to actually clear the mal. It is just a theory though :-) This does actually make me tempted to go try this though. I've got a tert rig where I could easily hook up my first main and pack a lineover. Play with it and see if I could clear it :-) Hmmm. Maybe if its warm out this weekend. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #35 December 25, 2003 Quote*** Thanks, I remeber reading it but not the details. I have experienced two lineovers and was able to clear them both. Once "popping" it off with the brake line and once using the riser. The time with the brake line, I was still pretty inexperienced and just went to my FJC traing for partial/low speed mal. Just guessed it was a lineover until the DZO said he saw it as well. I was pretty excited at the time and going off reflex more than thinking. The second one was much later in my career and involved a HP elliptical canopy. No way could I tell what line was the problem and "popping" the brake did not fix it, so I decided on one try with the whole riser. It worked. Very wild ride. FWIW, I knew something was wrong before I released the brakes, it was already not looking right and starting to spin during inflation. Releasing the brakes rally made it take off! Maybe should have tried to clear before releasing brakes? I had this same problem very recently on a HP canopy. I have just downsized from 150 ellip to 120 ellip and it was on my 10th jump after the downsize. I experienced exactly the reverse, and was wearing video at the time so I could spend a lot of time analyzing the situation. It started spinning with the slider 3/4 of the way down. it was spinning to the right, so I countered with the left riser which did nothing. I then furiously pumped the left riser twice trying to fix it, which did nothing. at this point I grabbed both toggles (which took me 2 seconds to simply find due to the stress and g's) and then pulled them as far down as I could and let them back up as quick as I could. it fixed it. total time from deployment to control: 5 seconds. in those 5 seconds I did 3 full revolutions. you can also see in the video that the left 2 cells are completely fubarred during the spin (which I saw during the mal, but didnt dwell on) My first assumption was an unstowed brake line, but the video clearly showed that they were stowed. I guess it just depends on where it is and the randomness of what line it is. my rule of thumb is try twice, try something else twice, chop. luckily I didnt need to do that. I was really happy after it was over that I actually followed the rule I had set for myself.. I could've pulled on that riser for the rest of my life instead of moving on to the next step of my emergency procedures. what does everyone else think ? Blue ones D 27808 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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hookitt 0 #28 December 18, 2003 QuoteHigher, I'd probably just slice both brake lines because the odds are quite good that it is a brake line causing the lineover. In the BASE world, flying and flaring with one riser and one brake line is a better bet. If you ever think about it, practice flaring with one riser and one brake line. You'll probably be surprised at how much more control you have.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #29 December 18, 2003 QuoteCare to elaborate on that instead of just wasting bandwidth? So youre saying that you're more likely to get a line over on a slider up jump than a slider down jump? Notice I said primarily, as most reefing technology in BASE it appears is originally invented for slider down/off jumps. The slider acts as an awesome reefing device when jumping slider up. I'll be interested to read your comments about this, sky medic. He won't answer you. He never does when it comes right down to backing up something that he apparently has the habit of otherwise just glibly spewing out there, with any sort of meaningful, factual and/or first hand actual knowledge. I wouldn't be holding my breath Andy, if I were you.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 December 18, 2003 QuoteI won't do any sort of skydive without a hook knife. My dad taught me from a young age, that carrying a knife is always a good idea. They're handy tools that can help you out in a variety of situations. Remember the guy caught in the rock slide last year that cut off his arm with a pocket knife to escape? I guess that just carried over with me to skydiving, and always make sure my hook knife is available (just in case). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #31 December 19, 2003 QuoteI would take a lineover or a tension knot on a single reserve canopy at any altitude to some of the stuff I've seen people have to ride in. QuoteI think you're mistaken on this point, but I'm certainly not arguing for hook knife use at all. QuoteI've had plenty experience with malfunctioning canopies and trust that experience will be in my favor should I find myself in the unfortunate circumstance to need it. QuoteI've not used a hook knife to date and hope it stays that way, though I carry two on every jump and have no reservations about using one. I'm confused as to what your point is or what issue you have with my posts. We seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. I have no problem with the use of a hook knife, but with respect to a reserve mal, and the view point of a non- CRW jump, it would be a last resort. Your comments above seem to me to reflect that. I can't help but feel you have somehow gotten the impression that I have been critical of the use of knives by CReW Dogs and are intent on defending them. That is just not the case. My one and only contention was to question the conventional wisdom of using a reserve lineover/tension knot as one reason to carry a knife. I don't think CRW mals above 3000' are valid evidence for using them on a reserve at 1200'or most likely lower. They are proven as a tool for CRW. I think every JM/I should have one on them in the plane. Each plane should haveone easily accessable. I don't even see why everyone should not have one. I just question the wisdom of some one with little or no mal experience going after one at the first sign of trouble with a reserve. I think I've supported that with sound reasoning and evidence. Readers of the forum are free to give it thought and decide. I certainly did not post with the intention of a sidetracked and protracted debate on the merits of hook knives and I think the numbers speak for themselves.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #32 December 19, 2003 QuoteMy one and only contention was to question the conventional wisdom of using a reserve lineover/tension knot as one reason to carry a knife. ... I just question the wisdom of some one with little or no mal experience going after one at the first sign of trouble with a reserve. Nowhere have I implied someone with little or no experience charge right in with a hook knife at the first sign of reserve trouble. I do think it's a valid option and I gave what I felt was a relevant example to a question you posed. You don't see the relevance and on that we disagree - fair enough. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #33 December 19, 2003 QuoteLow, I'd probably spend my efforts controlling the canopy and trying to rear riser stall the line free. Wendy, can you elaborate on this? I'm familiar with cycling the steering line to try clearing a line over. How do you use a rear riser stall to do it? In your opinion is rear riser or toggle a better way to approach this? Or are they just different? I'm not sure if you're talking about using a rear riser stall to clear a lined over steering line, or just to try and clear a lined over suspension (non-control) line. Thanks!-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #34 December 19, 2003 Quote I'm familiar with cycling the steering line to try clearing a line over. How do you use a rear riser stall to do it? In your opinion is rear riser or toggle a better way to approach this? Or are they just different? I've never actually has a line-over that was more than over a corner, so I don't have personal experience, but I have seen more than 1 cleared on CRW jumps. My thought is that anything you do to partially collapse the side of the canopy where the lineover is might help to clear it. Rear riser stalls are a lot less violent than toggle stalls, and since you're pulling down on the whole side of the canopy, as opposed to just one line, it seems like it would give a better chance to actually clear the mal. It is just a theory though :-) This does actually make me tempted to go try this though. I've got a tert rig where I could easily hook up my first main and pack a lineover. Play with it and see if I could clear it :-) Hmmm. Maybe if its warm out this weekend. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auryn 0 #35 December 25, 2003 Quote*** Thanks, I remeber reading it but not the details. I have experienced two lineovers and was able to clear them both. Once "popping" it off with the brake line and once using the riser. The time with the brake line, I was still pretty inexperienced and just went to my FJC traing for partial/low speed mal. Just guessed it was a lineover until the DZO said he saw it as well. I was pretty excited at the time and going off reflex more than thinking. The second one was much later in my career and involved a HP elliptical canopy. No way could I tell what line was the problem and "popping" the brake did not fix it, so I decided on one try with the whole riser. It worked. Very wild ride. FWIW, I knew something was wrong before I released the brakes, it was already not looking right and starting to spin during inflation. Releasing the brakes rally made it take off! Maybe should have tried to clear before releasing brakes? I had this same problem very recently on a HP canopy. I have just downsized from 150 ellip to 120 ellip and it was on my 10th jump after the downsize. I experienced exactly the reverse, and was wearing video at the time so I could spend a lot of time analyzing the situation. It started spinning with the slider 3/4 of the way down. it was spinning to the right, so I countered with the left riser which did nothing. I then furiously pumped the left riser twice trying to fix it, which did nothing. at this point I grabbed both toggles (which took me 2 seconds to simply find due to the stress and g's) and then pulled them as far down as I could and let them back up as quick as I could. it fixed it. total time from deployment to control: 5 seconds. in those 5 seconds I did 3 full revolutions. you can also see in the video that the left 2 cells are completely fubarred during the spin (which I saw during the mal, but didnt dwell on) My first assumption was an unstowed brake line, but the video clearly showed that they were stowed. I guess it just depends on where it is and the randomness of what line it is. my rule of thumb is try twice, try something else twice, chop. luckily I didnt need to do that. I was really happy after it was over that I actually followed the rule I had set for myself.. I could've pulled on that riser for the rest of my life instead of moving on to the next step of my emergency procedures. what does everyone else think ? Blue ones D 27808 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
