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JoHawley

Would you sue the DZ?

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For god's sakes! If you fear this, STOP JUMPING!

I do not fear this any more than say a planet killer meteor or the all reality TV universe (shudder). I used an unlikely scenario because in most likely scenarios I would not consider suing. I recently fell down a friend's staircase that he hadn't properly cleaned of snow. Did I sue? Of course not. Would I sue if I was left a paraplegic? Can't say 'cause I'm not there. My point is merely that until put to the test none of us know where the boundaries lie. Would you sacrifice your daughter's education to avoid breaking your word? If so does that make you a better or worse person?

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>Am I correct in assuming that you've never quit a job?

No, I've quit about 10 so far. Fortunately I never signed anything that said I wouldn't quit. I _did_ sign stuff saying I wouldn't reveal proprietary information. That means I don't, even if I would make a profit by doing so. From what I've seen from other posters here, many people consider such an agreement meaningless.

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>My point is merely that until put to the test none of us know where
>the boundaries lie.

And my point is - decide now. You can become paralyzed or die doing this. If you can't accept that, then don't do it. If you are unable to understand the possible consequences of your actions you should not be performing those actions.

You say you can't know? Not hard to figure out. Being a quadriplegic would suck. Many new quadriplegics want to kill themselves in the first year after their accident. Want to avoid that? Stop jumping, and decide to stop jumping _before_ the accident happens.

Or keep jumping, and accept that it can happen. And when it does happen, be enough of a man to accept the consequences of your actions, and accept the risk you signed up for when you signed the waiver.

The waiver isn't there just to protect the DZ. It's also there so you know what can happen to you. It's not just a legal document - it's to let you know that you can end up never being able to move again because of a mistake someone else made. Read it.

>Would you sacrifice your daughter's education to avoid breaking your
> word? If so does that make you a better or worse person?

I would not give my word in such a manner that it would preclude my daughter's education. If there were a situation where I had to break it or accept a lesser education for my daughter? I'd accept the lesser education. Children learn what they see, not what is taught in school. Decide what you want to teach your kids.

Are you really saying you would do that? If you signed a non-disclosure agreement, and you could sell trade secrets for an amount that would pay for your daughter's education at Julliard or wherever, you would? Wow.

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Had someone get seriously hurt on a load that I spotted. Him and another landed off. Me and the 2 others in our group made it back. Who's to say the spot was bad and the person didn't fly themselves off the airport. I would also have to say the injury was caused more by the poor decision in alternate landing area, and the low turn to try to get in it. A bad spot does not cause you to get hurt, you are just more likely to make another mistake that might get you hurt. No you don't sue.

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>I do acknowledge their right to do that though, and I would have
> protected myself by buying Title Insurance - as anyone involved in a
> real estate transaction should.

So you think someone has every right to disregard a contract they signed. Hmm. I disagree, but that's just me.



Do you think a DZ has every right to disregard the FARs? I think a reasonable expectation of a customer of any business claiming to be legitimate is that it is obeying the law. I certainly don't think it is my responsibility as a customer to inspect their mechanics' FAA certificates and then check the FAA database to see if the certificate has been suspended or revoked.

If the business chooses to act illegally, then they have morally and ethically relinquished any claim to hold their customers to a "legal" agreement. No court would enforce it.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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No one forced you to get out of the plane.

If you can't handle the sport and think a lawsuit is your safety net, then leave the sport. This is not for you. Try chess.

Gross negligence is criminal and would be handled by the local authorities.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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Gross negligence is criminal and would be handled by the local authorities.



And you don't think that this is an indication that sueing would also be an appropriate course of action?

Hmmm, the drunk pilot crashed in to the hangar on takeoff...the authorities will take appropriate action...but I'll lay in the burn unit comforted by the fact that I showed personal integrity by not sueing to help pay for my medical bills et cetera.

"Try chess" is not an appropriate reply here. It may seem to be the cool thing to say, but it's not.

A waiver isn't a license to kill or cause harm. Only James Bond has one of those.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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There is a guy in Reno, Clyde Blinco who operated a small, rag tag operation using old surplussed military gear tagged for destruction from the 70. They didn't even hold air any more, often tore in two but he just sewed them back up and patches them all the time along with the harness and container, and people came down like bricks. Also no altimeters, no goggles, no AADs, round reserves, harnesses he eye-balled and sewed together himself, and his teaching was hap hazard and brief at best. He had no current lisenses, He just had non lisences deralicks hold onto pilot chutes as the people left his rickety cessna 182 that had to be hand propped. Lots of people dies and were seriously injured and paralyzed. But because of his waiver and no difinitive FAA regulation of the sport, he got away with it and bragged that he had a lisense to kill, the lisence being the waiver. He has single handedly destroyed countless unsuspecting lives and families with his conscious negligence.
What to do about someone out there like that?
He needs to be in jail for what he has knowingly done to so many people!

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An instructor makes a bad spot, you end up landing off and get seriously injured during the landing. Would you sue the DZ for negligence or do you accept that they just made a bad call and it was tough luck for you?



No I would not sue the DZ in anyway for this, this would be petty, I do know "acceptable risks" and that of course is one of them.

HOWEVER, like Kallend and a couple of others, if the situation involves mechanical error, or pilot error and results in death, disfigurement, or a life as a vegetable, sure as shit I would sue. I did not accept the risks of a drunk pilot, a dz cutting corners on maintenence or machinery, pencil packing my rented reserve or anything else beyond my ability to verify it's soundness or working condition. Can't remember the last time I interviewed a pilot before boarding or inspected the plane to know if it's was up to snuff!

My biggest fear when skydiving is the airplane ride.

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Clearly some strong feelings out there from people who fortunately aren't injured! A friend of mine is in the situation I described. He hit a mound of concrete which was hidden under grass so he couldn't see it from above in the field he picked to land in, so he feels understandably hard done to. He is not a student and has nearly 100 jumps. Despite breaking part of his back there was no nerve damage, but he will struggle with walking. He won't sue, but we were just discussing it the other day and I wondered what everyone else thought.
I don't know what I would do in his situation. I am not convinced that everyone checks the spot every time the jump though...

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Go ahead and sue, feel free, contact a no win no fee outfit. Just don't complain when the BPA membership goes up and we all end up paying for the legal costs.:(>:(
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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Not sure what any of this has got to do with the spot - spotting is an art and can always be a bit off, although ususally it isn't.

If you're not prepared to land off each time you jump, then you shouldn't be jumping. BTW, I mean "prepared" (it shouldn't be a regularity) ;)

If you hurt yourself landing off, it's probably because:

- You're flying a canopy too small for you to land safely in a tight area (i.e. your own fault)
- You're trying too hard to make it back to the landing field and don't have enough time to set up correctly for landing (i.e. your own fault)
- You pulled far too low, so it possibly wasn't a bad spot, but assumed you would be blown further under canopy so you end up a bit short (i.e. your own fault).

Is there a common theme developing here? ;)

Ahh, well, I'm British so I don't believe in the litigation culture anyway.... :)
Whether the pilot was qualified/plane well maintained etc, well that's something else. Breaching standard operating procedures should be considered as serious, but separate to this theme. [:/]

Just my 2p.
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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