SlyFox 0 #26 February 20, 2004 No. Landing off the dropzone does not necessarily mean it was a bad spot. I have seen it where everyone landed on the DZ but one. Does that make it a bad spot. As far as saying you are responsible for your own spot, as a student that is just an excuse. Reality is even the best sometimes make a bad spot, wind change for example. You are given training on a PLF and a good PLF will help prevent injuries. *****Why would anyone jump from a perfectly good airplane? Because it isn't much fun if it's broke.**** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #27 February 20, 2004 >Are these risks you willingly and knowingly took upon yourself? Yes. Such risks are contained in the waiver, under the "passive and active negligence" part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #28 February 20, 2004 sue sue sue, everyone wants to sue someone, I think I am going to see the farmer who raised the cow that got slaughtered, whose skin was dried out and use to make a belt, which was sold in a store which my mom purchased and then used to spank my butt when I was child which caused me emotional turmoil, which in turn caused me to not like belts, which I CHOSE not to wear in the car crash where I broke my arm. (hypothetically), while I am at I think I might sue the car manufacturer as well, I am sure he screwed me somehow too PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SlyFox 0 #29 February 20, 2004 Quotewhich was sold in a store which my mom purchased and then used to spank my butt when I was child which caused me emotional turmoil Hey if you win let me know. I think I have the same symptons as you. *****Why would anyone jump from a perfectly good airplane? Because it isn't much fun if it's broke.**** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bendywendy 0 #30 February 20, 2004 Bad spot? How about level 4 landing offshore in Lake Okeechobee? That was a pretty bad spot. No, I didn't sue. We aren't talking about a few yards from shore either. I was picked up by a boater. No I wouldn't sue for anything to do with a spot. You've got two eyes you can take a look down on exit and you can take a look during the skydive and pull higher if you need to. Granted I didn't know any of that on Level 4 AFF but...I did chose the best spot to land in the water - as close to the boat as I could get. Skydiving is risky. You are responsible for yourself. Look down, pull higher, pick your spot and go for it. Make sure that you are comfortable landing whatever you are jumping in a tiny backyard strewn with obstacles. Don't blame other people if you get hurt. just in case it wasn't clear I am very agains sueing unless as the one person wrote it was extreme negligence in cutting corners on plane maintenence & idiocy like running out of fuel - I probably would still be against sueing but would be slightly more understanding about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZoneRat 0 #31 February 20, 2004 I remember a conversation I had with a law student many years ago. We were talking about sports wavers in general, not SD wavers in specific. He made two interesting points that I think might apply. 1. You cannot sign away your rights before the unfortunate event occurs. Only after. You can sign the waver, but the "Waving Rights" part, he said, is legally weak. 2. Assumption of Risk: I think this is where the waver gets it's teeth. By signing the waver you are showing that you understand that there is risk and you are willing to accept it. When waivers include language about the possibility of DZ negligence, it is attempting to broaden the scope typically associated with comon ideas regarding basic Assumption of Risk. It may work, it may not. Kallend, as always, brought up some interesting points. There may be times when negligence outways Assumption of Risk. Would I sue if I had a bad spot, landed off in a Rotweiler farm? Nope. Would I sue if a well intentioned packer packed me a hard opening that broke my sternum? Nope. I think that falls within the guidlines of Assumtion of Risk. Would I sue if I were visiting a New DZ, whose pilot was a drunk and DZ staff knew it, did nothing, and that pilot, drunk at the time (though I didn't know), flew the plane into the fuel tank and I was horribly burned and disfigured as a result? Oh hell yeah. I cant see a waver covering for something like that.“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kitof1976 0 #32 February 20, 2004 No I would not sue for anything that involves spoting... it's everyone's choice to jump out or not. But I do think that sueing a DZ or hold them legally responsible for some aspect of their operation would be acceptable. By that I mean I do expect the jump planes to be properly maintained by trained mechanics and that the rental gear should be in airworthy conditions.. I think that if it can be proven that the DZ or someone at the DZ did something blatantly negligent to save a buck on mainteance for expample, they should be held responsible for their actions. "We see the world just the way we are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #33 February 20, 2004 >By that I mean I do expect the jump planes to be properly > maintained by trained mechanics and that the rental gear should be > in airworthy conditions.. Then why did you sign an agreement that says specifically that the rental gear may NOT be airworthy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #34 February 20, 2004 First off I want to say that I would NEVER sue a DZ. I read the information, I read the SIM, I know the risks involved and I choose to put myself in a potentially dangerous situation of my own free will. I did question a spot during AFF because I couldn't see the dropzone (although it turned out it was MY fault because I wasn't looking directly down). I am not now, nor will I ever be afraid to question something that doesn't seem right. I am pretty safety concious and have been since I started jumping. I also trust the instructors I jump with implicitly. . .course I am a newbie and have NEVER jumped anywhere else either. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdweller 0 #35 February 20, 2004 NO------------------------------------------------------ "From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanofOZ 0 #36 February 20, 2004 Everybody makes mistakes. Instructors are only human. You should know that things happen in this sport and take responsibility for your own life. I can only think of a few situations where I would say the DZ should be sued. None involve a bad spot on a load. And the few all are during a students AFF course like instructors not checking gear. IF you have a license of any kind, you should be on your own guard.Oz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #37 February 20, 2004 Quote Then why did you sign an agreement that says specifically that the rental gear may NOT be airworthy? For the same reason I park my car in a garage which claims they're not responsible for damage to my car. While I generally agree with most points in the waiver, I know that some of them will be completely disregarded by any court of law. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #38 February 20, 2004 You made the decision to exit the plane, you are the one responsible for your "tough luck" RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #39 February 20, 2004 Yes! Anyone who disagrees with me either has better disability insurance (in which case are likely to see the DZ sued on their behalf whether they like it or not) or they are not being honest with themselves. Picture yourself under a bridge, wrapped in newspaper, unable to work. It is cold. you are still you but since the accident you can't concentrate or do any physical work. Honor, Pride vs. a warm place to sleep, hot food and some pain medication other than that stuff you got on the street. The truth is until you are in that position no-one can say they will not sue. That's why waivers look like they do. When I took my instructors' course we had a lawyer (and currently my DZO employer) come in to talk about waivers and the difference between negligence (protected by waiver) and gross negligence (not protectible) and criminal negligence. Basically we're talking bad spot vs. recklessly bad spot vs. intentionally bad spot. A lot of talk has this "everyone is responsible for their own spot" flavour. Are you nuts? If all four people on a four way from a c-182 stop to respot on the way out the door it is a lock that it will be a shitty spot. I have been on a C-130 with over two hundred people on it. Are you suggesting that each and every one of us should have stopped at the door to respot? As a Tandem Master the most common cause of bad spots is morons who think that they can spot better than the pilot with four thousand jump runs, four thousand jumps, and a GPS. It's not that big a deal. I cannot open much higher due to IFR (jet) traffic at 5000' but we have this thing called a van. We use it to pick up people who land out. As a FJI I have blown the spot for first jump students on many occasions because, as the waiver says, I am human and I make mistakes. I mitigate my mistakes by cheating towards the safe places, and by teaching my students to fly their parachutes rather than listen to their radios. At this point I feel my self satisfied smugness constrained by the cold hand of fate resting ever so lightly upon my left shoulder. With that in mind I will add that I have been very lucky in that the students that have landed in town over the years seem to have been brighter than average. The concept of everyone being responsible for their own spot is not practical for aircraft larger than a C-172; looking down after exit is everyone's responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #40 February 20, 2004 QuoteWhat if the jump plane pilot is unqualified (license suspended, wrong type of certificate...), what if the engine is poorly maintained by an unlicensed mechanic and causes a crash (happened in 1992), what if the plane runs out of fuel (because they wanted to get in one more load before sunset and thought they had enough) and crashes? What if the rental gear reserve has been pencil packed and gives you a lineover on a reserve ride? Are these risks you willingly and knowingly took upon yourself? Are these things you investigated, or just took on blind faith were being done properly? I choose not to jump at DZ's that are operated that way. I choose not to use riggers that operate that way. I choose not to get in to a car with a driver who's intoxicated. I choose not to jaywalk on highways.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caress 0 #41 February 20, 2004 I have to accept responsibility for my own actions. I chose to skydive in the first place. I would not even consider sueing a DZ. Out of the Question.-Caress I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #42 February 20, 2004 >For the same reason I park my car in a garage which claims >they're not responsible for damage to my car. If you signed a document that said "I understand my car can be broken into; I won't sue if this happens" and your car is broken into, and you sue, shame on you. You broke your word. Take the opposite case. You are selling your house. The potential buyers get it inspected and agree to take it in as-is condition. You close on the deal and buy a new house. Two months later the new owners say "We don't want the house; we're backing out because we found some water damage." They sue you for the cost of the house. You OK with that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #43 February 20, 2004 >Picture yourself under a bridge, wrapped in newspaper, unable to > work. It is cold. you are still you but since the accident you can't > concentrate or do any physical work. Honor, Pride vs. a warm place > to sleep, hot food and some pain medication other than that stuff > you got on the street. For god's sakes! If you fear this, STOP JUMPING! All the money in the world won't fix brain injury. You agreed to not sue when you signed that paper. Honor your word. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #44 February 20, 2004 First off I voted no. Sueing over the spot because you femured yourself on an out landing is idiotic. The point I think several people are trying to make is that everyone has a line in the sand. Sure, most of us draw it well beyond something as benign as a hosed spot or bad pack job, but it is somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #45 February 20, 2004 QuoteTwo months later the new owners say "We don't want the house; we're backing out because we found some water damage." They sue you for the cost of the house. You OK with that? Am I ok with it? Well, it certainly would suck. I'd be in a pretty good position because I presume I'd already have their (or their banks) money. I do acknowledge their right to do that though, and I would have protected myself by buying Title Insurance - as anyone involved in a real estate transaction should. Its said that verbal contracts are worth the paper their printed on, but its also true that a poorly written contract is equally worthless. Parts of the typical skydiving agreement are worthless. My favorite was one that said if anybody sued, they'd have to pay everyone named $10,000 for the privelege, then proceeded to list off 200 different people and entities. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #46 February 20, 2004 It's my decision to jump I don't see any time when I could not look down before exiting. Even if they deliberately gave me a spot, over a volcano, through clouds for example..."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #47 February 20, 2004 >I do acknowledge their right to do that though, and I would have > protected myself by buying Title Insurance - as anyone involved in a > real estate transaction should. So you think someone has every right to disregard a contract they signed. Hmm. I disagree, but that's just me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #48 February 20, 2004 Quote So you think someone has every right to disregard a contract they signed. Hmm. I disagree, but that's just me. Am I correct in assuming that you've never quit a job? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #49 February 20, 2004 Students with only a couple of jumps dont know the difference between a good spot and a bad spot. Students are told to listen to their instructors, they are told to ask them for advice, they are told to ask them if they are not sure of something. Students rely on their jumpmasters to teach them how to survive in this crazy ass sport we partake in. I believe spotting on the first couple of AFF levels are the jms responsibility. I was always told to wait for my instructor to check the spot, and then to climb out when they gave the signal. How is a student supposed to be responsible for their spot when they are following the guidance of a trusted instructor? Plus, would a student with only a couple of jumps even know the difference between a bad spot and a good spot??? If the spot is bad i believe it is the instructors responsibility not to let the student jump. If students start questioning their jm's spotting, what else will they start questioning? Yes, at the end of the day nobody holds a gun to our heads to make us jump, we choose to do so. Students do need professional guidance though, and they depend on their jm's for that. just bringing up some points here, at the end of the day though, I would not sue. whoooahh....just checked the original posters bio...didnt know he had 167 jumps....my comments only refer to someone with a couple of jumps, if he is referring to someone with 167 jumps then he is freakin crazy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #50 February 20, 2004 QuoteThe point I think several people are trying to make is that everyone has a line in the sand. Sure, most of us draw it well beyond something as benign as a hosed spot or bad pack job, but it is somewhere. My line in the sand is "I will not sue" - period. That's what I promised when I signed that paper. I won't break that promise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
