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Nightingale

for the people in the industry: would you let a student pull a reserve because they wanted to inspect it?

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This is a funny one. Lots of answers saying the student just wouldn't or doesn't understand. Of course, they're students. And they can ask any question they want. And they should. And they will.

If they are wanting to see the reserve, then we need to understand that even if this is the millionth time we've heard the question, it's still the first time they've asked it. That's the nature of any service, the customer's perspective.

So, first train the student on the requirements and nature of the reserve and don't try to make them feel stupid because they don't know what the general staff or an everyday skydiver knows (they aren't supposed to). If that doesn't satisfy them, then go over the various options (opening it for pay plus extra, missing a jump for a week, etc). But if you're opening a reserve, make them pay and use that opportunity (wear and tear on a good canopy) to convene all the students and make it a chance for an after hours training seminar.

Maybe somebody will decide to become a rigger.

And why would you (everyone who voted no - and this question comes down to show them a reserve or turn them away) want to turn away someone thoughtful and thorough enough to want to understand the entire system?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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but they still can't see what's in their container. The rigger could've stuffed the container with moldy socks for all the student knows, and written down incorrect information on the card. The only way to verify that there is, in fact, a reserve in the container, and that the reserve is what the card says it is, is to open it up.



If the container was opened, would the student know how to verify the information on the Packing Data Card by looking at the reserve? Probably not. They can't see whats in their helmet during a skydive but they can be pretty sure it's their head and not moldy socks. Certain things in life have to be taken at face value. jmo
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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How about when you have your own gear and give it to a rigger for a repack. Do you trust them to do it? Of course you do! They went through a lot to get that ticket, and they are not going to screw themselves out of it just to stuff socks in your rig so they can sell your second hand reserve for a small amount of money that is no where near what they paid to get that ticket.



I'll take issue with this. There are any number of cases where riggers "pencil pack” a reserve. Do I trust MY rigger? Yes. Do I trust any rigger? Hell no!
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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If they insisted, I would let them, then they will be charged for the repack and they probably won't be able to jump that day because now the rig they were doing to jump will have be be repacked and, unless its raining, its probably not gonna happen until after sunset.

But then what, are they going to what to check the next pack job, and so on and so forth. They will never get to jump but some rigger is going to make alot of money.

Also, if they are not a rigger or an experienced skydiver, are they really gonna know right from wrong?
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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I agree. By the same token, then, would the student be allowed to inspect the aircraft's engines to see they are working properly?

I think that if the rig is near a reserve repack and the DZ doesn't need the rig for other students that day, I dont see a problem. But if the dz is backed up with aff students and it's a rig that is not due for a repack in a while, then I think it should be explained to the student what the reserve repack card means and what was done to the rig when.

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My guess is that this poll is driven by the one about the waiver. So if I can't check the reserve you are about to rent me and I sign the waiver and I have to go to reserve and moldy socks come out then I can't sue. Or more to the point my family can't sue. But I couldn't be responsible for my own gear because I couldn't check the reserve. "That's some catch that Catch-22."


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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If they are wanting to see the reserve, then we need to understand that even if this is the millionth time we've heard the question, it's still the first time they've asked it. That's the nature of any service, the customer's perspective.

So, first train the student on the requirements and nature of the reserve and don't try to make them feel stupid because they don't know what the general staff or an everyday skydiver knows (they aren't supposed to). If that doesn't satisfy them, then go over the various options (opening it for pay plus extra, missing a jump for a week, etc). But if you're opening a reserve, make them pay and use that opportunity (wear and tear on a good canopy) to convene all the students and make it a chance for an after hours training seminar.



That's what I meant to say-- just didn't get it out in so many words. I think that once a student understands what they're really asking for, what the ramifications are, and why they should believe that noone would let them jump with moldy socks for a reserve, it should suffice. If it doesn't, let 'em see it and pay the consequences. One would hope, though, that they wouldn't want to pop the reserve on each rig as they downsized, or used different student gear.:S

And, Nightingale-- "pencil packing" involves the rigger updating the data card (and his/her records) without actually repacking the reserve.


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I completely agree with you. There is a time when the student's responsibility ends and the responsibility of the DZ begins. If they tell the student that there is a reserve in there, then it is their obligation to follow through on their word and have a reserve actually in there.

When I asked, I didn't know about the implications of reserve repacks. I think I had like two jumps. The instructor let me look over the main (another student had just landed with it, so it didn't even have to be unpacked, I just got to take a minute and look it over before Jimmy packed it) and the reserve data card was explained to me, and I was able to speak with the rigger who packed it, because they could tell by the seal and all that.

Having done that, I felt a lot better about jumping, and felt I had a much better understanding of the equipment. The DZ did take a lot of time with me (on a weekday, not a weekend) and went over what I needed to feel comfortable with the gear on my back, and that was enough for me.

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I completely agree with you. There is a time when the student's responsibility ends and the responsibility of the DZ begins. If they tell the student that there is a reserve in there, then it is their obligation to follow through on their word and have a reserve actually in there.

When I asked, I didn't know about the implications of reserve repacks. I think I had like two jumps. The instructor let me look over the main (another student had just landed with it, so it didn't even have to be unpacked, I just got to take a minute and look it over before Jimmy packed it) and the reserve data card was explained to me, and I was able to speak with the rigger who packed it, because they could tell by the seal and all that.

Having done that, I felt a lot better about jumping, and felt I had a much better understanding of the equipment. The DZ did take a lot of time with me (on a weekday, not a weekend) and went over what I needed to feel comfortable with the gear on my back, and that was enough for me.


I did not mean to come off like the DZ should blow off the question. They should take the time to explain all aspects of the jump and equipment that the student will use. The more they understand, the more relaxed they will be and the more they will enjoy. And as for the DZO's responsibility, federal law dictates how the harness/container, reserve canopy and the main canopy will be inspected and packed. By placing his/her seal on the reserve he/she are say that at least the harness/container and reserve canopy are airworthy and assembled and packed in accordance with the manufactures instructions.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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