No AAD, No Jump

[billvon 2,380]

>Any criticism of people who insist upon the device is nothing more
> then arogant bravado by people who think they've been around the
> block.

Is it arrogant bravado to insist that student pilots solo or that students jump without instructors, or from low altitudes? A jumper who can demonstrate that he can skydive without any gadgets, instructors, coaches etc is safer than one who feels he cannot.

>I have jumped without one, I'll avoid doing so again whenever
> possible. Likewise, I'll avoid jumping without a reserve whenever
> possible - that's why i don't do BASE.

No problem; that's your decision. Nevertheless, skydivers who can maintain their gear and pack to the standards required in BASE (i.e. so that they do not need a reserve) are safer than skydivers who never learned that, and who pack their mains knowing they will always have a rigger-inspected (and theoretically perfect) reserve. "Hey, that's why I have a reserve!" is a common phrase when discussing less than perfect pack jobs, linesets etc.

It is my opinion that you should be able to jump with nothing more than a rig on and land safely. (You can't do that with a single container system because it's illegal.) Such an ability means that you are minimally dependent on battery operated or mechanical gadgets, and their inevitable failure will be less of a risk. At least one jumper has been killed because he depended on his cypres to do something it could not; it's a good idea to try to avoid that sort of dependency.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

A jumper who can demonstrate that he can skydive without any gadgets, instructors, coaches etc is safer than one who feels he cannot.

I've never heard of anyone who can not, I only hear of people who choose not.

To them, I applaud. I look forward to the day when people who choose an additional safety margin are not ridiculed.

Flying with a backup in the right-seat may not always be feasable. Having a relatively innexpensive piece of hardware is.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,380]

>I've never heard of anyone who can not, I only hear of people who
>choose not.

I heard of one; he's dead now. I have heard of many people get on loads after they remarked "hey, that's why I have an AAD." I have heard others ask people "do you have an AAD?" before a potential zoo load. This indicates to me that people nowadays are using the reassurance they get from having an AAD to participate in more dangerous dives than they otherwise would. And that's bad.

>To them, I applaud. I look forward to the day when people who
>choose an additional safety margin are not ridiculed.

I do not look forward to a day where demonstrated competence takes a back seat to the number of safety devices on one's rig. The judgement of a competent skydiver will always be more important than a device. That statement (I hope) doesn't make even the most tricked-out skydiver feel ridiculed.

>Flying with a backup in the right-seat may not always be feasable.

Feasible isn't the issue. Demonstrating that one can operate an airplane without a backup there is the issue. It is completely different to fly an airplane without an instructor sitting next to you, and a pilot who never has that experience is not as good a pilot as one who has soloed.

[akjmpplt 0]

Quote

Was she knocked out?

No, her pilot chute was around her leg, she tryed for much too long to clear it, finally pulling the reserve ripcord low enough she only had bridal stretch at impact.

SmugMug

[burbleflyer 0]

Its already mandated that I wear two parachutes I see no need to force me to wear one.
I have never owned one and never will.
I do believe that if you are afraid to jump without one you should ask yourself why. If its because you fear the chances of getting knocked out then fine.
If you fear not being able to handle what might happen then.......
Three handles. Two hands. One brain. Not complicated at all.

[Tinkerbelle 5]

Personally, I don't need no stinkin' gadgets, nor an AAD, in fact, I don't even need a parachute! For longer trips though I take the broom so my wings don't get too fatigued!

Rehab is for quitters.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Any criticism of people who insist upon the device is nothing more then arogant bravado by people who think they've been around the block.

No, it is a simple fact. If people were good/experienced/trained/current enough. A CYPRES would not be needed but in very few cases. Most CYPRES fires are people just fucking up and losing track of altitude.

Losing track of altitude shows a very big lack of attention.

The statment that was made about the CYPRES allowing people who would not jump before to jump now is the problem.

The term is called "down dumming". Its where you use a device to replace training. A good example of this is cashiers making chance. Now that the register does it for you...Many people can't do it manually.

Now they don't KNOW they are becomming dependant on the register...But then after a few years they can not make change manualy.

The same thing is happening with the CYPRES. If you have to have it to jump. You don't trust yourself, and should train more.

And I think a DZ has the right to make you have one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

I have heard of many people get on loads after they remarked "hey, that's why I have an AAD." I have heard others ask people "do you have an AAD?" before a potential zoo load. This indicates to me that people nowadays are using the reassurance they get from having an AAD to participate in more dangerous dives than they otherwise would. And that's bad.

Amen I agree 100%

Quote

I do not look forward to a day where demonstrated competence takes a back seat to the number of safety devices on one's rig. The judgement of a competent skydiver will always be more important than a device. That statement (I hope) doesn't make even the most tricked-out skydiver feel ridiculed.

I'll buy you a beer for this one.

Quote

Feasible isn't the issue. Demonstrating that one can operate an airplane without a backup there is the issue. It is completely different to fly an airplane without an instructor sitting next to you, and a pilot who never has that experience is not as good a pilot as one who has soloed.

100% my thoughts

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[piisfish 135]

why not ?? some DZ's are quite endangered because many whuffo people around do not appreciate skydiving and related nuisances. So this is the kind of requirement which limitates the risk of finding a skydiver impacted in a non-friendly neighbour's garden, the same goes with "no hook turns"
Skydiving does not need to have a non-safe-sport publicity.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

This indicates to me that people nowadays are using the reassurance they get from having an AAD to participate in more dangerous dives than they otherwise would. And that's bad.

You may think thats bad, I disagree. I think thats reality.

For me, the Cypres is nearly singularly responsible for reducing skydiving fatalities to a point that I'm comfortable with. Remembering back to when I did my first jump - even the tandem - the reasurances that the Cypres provided was a big part of what compelled me to do it. Without the Cypres, I probably would have never made my first jump.

Continueing in the sport, its still the assurances of a relatively failsafe device that lowers the bar to a level where I'm comfortable.

Thats reality for me, and for most newer jumpers. I think the only reason you don't understand this is because you started before they were common. Your arguments against them come accross as nothing more then bravado.

Quote

. It is completely different to fly an airplane without an instructor sitting next to you, and a pilot who never has that experience is not as good a pilot as one who has soloed.

I'm getting tired of the intructor comparison. It ISN'T an instructor. It's not like I refuse to jump without an AFFI at my side, or I refuse to go beyond tandems. I choose to use a electronic device, just like I choose to jump with a reserve (ie, I don't do BASE). NO DIFFERENCE. It might be comparable to a pilot who refuses to fly without a colision avoidance system, or without windshear warnings. Indeed, either the FAA or airlines require these systems on most commercial flights. Even this comparison falls through, because these systems are not standard on every "student" plane, nor are they the default configuration on 95% of planes on the market.

The only comparison that I can think of that works is someone who refuses to drive without a seatbelt. Put me in that category, too. I do rely on a seatbelt to save me if I or someone near me screws up while driving. Seatbelts come on almost every car, we're taught from day one to use them. Advanced seatbelts (5 point) allow drivers to engage in sports they otherwise couldn't. Sounds a lot like a Cypres to me.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skydonkey 0]

Not at all DZ's so far but I'm sure it won't be to long before it is.

It is mandatory in a lot of other countries in Europe though.

[pccoder 0]

I agree, even though I will always use my AAD. It's like the seatbelt law, if I don't want to wear it, that's my decision (even though I wear it).

PcCoder.net

[billvon 2,380]

>You may think thats bad, I disagree. I think thats reality.

Well, the two are not opposites. If there are a lot of people downsizing too quickly, that's both bad _and_ reality. Doesn't mean we should just say "Hey, good luck with that 107, have fun with it! Let me know if you get to 100 jumps."

>Continueing in the sport, its still the assurances of a relatively
>failsafe device that lowers the bar to a level where I'm comfortable.

Would you jump without one, on a jump of your choice? If you refuse to ever jump without one, but are perfectly comfortable jumping a Stiletto 150 at your loading, you are making decisions based on things other than your risk of injury or death.

>Thats reality for me, and for most newer jumpers. I think the only
> reason you don't understand this is because you started before they
> were common.

You do not need a cypres to jump safely; THAT's reality. Tens of thousands of us proved that twelve years ago. Many people today never get a chance to realize that because they started with a cypres and have never known or considered any other way to jump. That's not the fault of modern jumpers, that's just the easy thing to do nowadays. It takes a while for jumpers to realize that to be really safe in this sport, you have to learn more than you learned in AFF and the ISP. You have to be able to handle small canopies under real-world (i.e. bad) conditions. You have to be able to deal with gear failure, whether that gear is your main, your altimeter, your cypres, your helmet, your dytter, even your reserve. The best way to do all that is to practice it. Make a jump without a cypres. Make a jump without an altimeter, or with it taped over. Do some CRW to prepare for a cypres misfire. Land a small canopy crosswind.

Are all those things more dangerous than using every bit of safety gear and landing a big canopy into the wind? Yes. Do they make you a better skydiver? Yes.

>Your arguments against them come accross as nothing more then bravado.

I have heard many whuffos say something like this when talking about skydivers, how skydivers do it just to be cool. I've heard some skydivers say this about BASE jumpers. Ah well. To me, the statement "I will never, ever jump without a cypres/dytter" shows a dangerous dependency, one that will make the sport a more dangerous one.

>I'm getting tired of the intructor comparison. It ISN'T an instructor.

My one primary job in the air when I teach is to make sure that the main gets open by 3000 feet. Everything else could be taught by a coach (used to be, in SL days.) The primary job of a cypres is to make sure you get a reserve open by 700 feet. Same basic job, and in terms of your survival, same function.

> I choose to use a electronic device, just like I choose to jump with a
> reserve (ie, I don't do BASE). NO DIFFERENCE.

Big difference! One is required by law; the other isn't. (And we're talking about skydiving here, not BASE.)

>The only comparison that I can think of that works is someone who
> refuses to drive without a seatbelt. Put me in that category, too.

If your seatbelt broke, would you refuse to drive your car to the shop because it was too dangerous?

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

If your seatbelt broke, would you refuse to drive your car to the shop because it was too dangerous?

I don't think I would drive on an expressway if my seatbelt was broken.

I don't think I would drive 20mph over the speed limit without ABS or SRS.

I know I don't drive my SUV like it was my sportscar.

I adjust what I do based on what equipment I have available.

Likewise, I have jumped without a Cypres. It was a solo hop and pop from 6K. I chose to leave the unit turned off because we were landing at a different airfield then we took off from, and I wasn't confident in how to adjust it properly. I am now. The risk of the jump was pretty much as low as they get, so I felt comfortable doing it.

In piloting aircraft, the first solo a pilot does is a huge right of passing. There is no similarity to a Cypres. There is no right of passing where we tell our students "ok, now its time to do your first jump without a cypres". We don't tell our students "OK, you're good enough - you don't need a Cypres anymore". Jumping without one is not a recommended step in the SIM.

There is nothing that says "good skydivers don't need cypres's". Indeed quite the opposite is true - history has shown that very experienced skydivers have been saved by them, and have gone in because due to the lack of them. They're good things.

I don't think anyone believes they're infaliable, just as nobody believes a seatbelt will save them in every crash. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use one on every jump, or wear one on every car trip.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,380]

>I adjust what I do based on what equipment I have available.

Exactly!!!! And if you are willing to do more dangerous things when you have a device available, you would be better advised to NOT do the dangerous thing _and_ have the device available.

>Likewise, I have jumped without a Cypres. It was a solo hop and pop from 6K.

Good for you! You've demonstrated that you don't rely on the thing.

>In piloting aircraft, the first solo a pilot does is a huge right of
> passing. There is no similarity to a Cypres.

Agreed, the rite of passage in skydiving is the first 'solo' jump (i.e. with an AAD, without an instructor.) An instructor is a big visible person who can help you with other things, and so his absence is a big deal, whereas you rarely notice a cypres in freefall so it's easy to forget about it.

> We don't tell our students "OK, you're good enough - you don't
>need a Cypres anymore". Jumping without one is not a
> recommended step in the SIM.

I agree, and I don't think it should be a step in the SIM. It's like learning to land a small HP canopy, or doing a CRW jump, or jumping without an altimeter - all things you can learn from, but also somewhat dangerous, so it wouldn't be appropriate to put such a recommendation in the SIM. The SIM and the ISP get students to a basic level of competency; from there much of their education is on their own.

>There is nothing that says "good skydivers don't need cypres's".

I agree again, and they can be one part of the recipie that makes a skydiver safe. I have a cypres on both my rigs now, and I usually turn them on. I'm glad I have one when I do things like the 357-way, but if it came down to it I'd jump without it. If I had a jump that I would refuse to do without a cypres, I'd refuse to do it period. A cypres that adds a level of safety to an already-safe dive can help you survive; a cypres that gives you the extra reassurance you need to get on a dangerous dive isn't helping keep you safe.

[happythoughts 0]

I jump with an AAD. I don't depend on it at all.

I don't know people who do stupid stuff because they have an AAD. It does not improve or degrade their attitude. Because "one person relied on his AAD and died" does not mean that all people who have one do this.

If people do something stupid, like being extremely low, I do not believe it should be fatal. I think they should live and be chewed on severely by the S&TA.

When I think of all the people who have been saved by AADs, I am happy they are all alive. They probably would have made the same mistake, only it would have been fatal. Hence the decrease in the no pull/low pull category.

Jumping without an AAD would probably not make anyone more "aware" or "better" or whatever. In some cases, just deader.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

To me, the statement "I will never, ever jump without a cypres/dytter" shows a dangerous dependency, one that will make the sport a more dangerous one.

I have jumped without a dytter..but dont like to and won't if I can help it.
You can also jump without an altimeter...many do! But I wouldn't. I'd rather ride the plane back down.

Doesn't mean I'm dependant upon these things..it's just because I know I can screw up..I know I'm not perfect..and neither is anyone else in the sky with me. Every thing I can do to protect myself - I try to do. whether it's taking classes...or practicing...or wearing a helmet, altimeter, dytter, gloves, cypres...
doesn't mean I depend on these things and therefore take chances I wouldn't otherwise - except for the change of simply jumping.

Quote

> I choose to use a electronic device, just like I choose to jump with a
> reserve (ie, I don't do BASE). NO DIFFERENCE.

Big difference! One is required by law; the other isn't. (And we're talking about skydiving here, not BASE.)

Not to speak for him..but I wouldn't jump without a reserve even if it wasn't the law.

I bet he feels the same way...

Quote

>The only comparison that I can think of that works is someone who
> refuses to drive without a seatbelt. Put me in that category, too.

If your seatbelt broke, would you refuse to drive your car to the shop because it was too dangerous?

Nope...I'd drive it to the shop, only because I wouldn't have much of a choice - the belts need to be fixed before I can drive it.
But I would also bail out of an airplane without a cypres if the engine died and the pilot said, "Everyone out!" and I saw his feet fly out the door.

The more apt comparison would be whether you would drive your car to the grocery store if the seatbelt was broken...
I don't go anywhere without my seat belt fastened if I can possibly possibly help it.

Edited to add: I don't drive differently because I have seat belts on - I don't drive faster or crazier than I would if they weren't on. I try and drive safely regardless.
Same with flying..I don't fly crazier because I have a Cypres - I try and fly safely regardless. I just have enough years behind me to know that I'm flawed, I screw up, and want as many protection devices behind me as I can possibly have for the times I DO screw up (as I know I WILL screw up! Heck, I already have - not needed a cypres, but still, I've screwed up more than once!)

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[billvon 2,380]

>I have jumped without a dytter..but dont like to and won't if I can help it.

Good for you! Being able to jump without a dytter (but using one anyway) is the best of both worlds.

>You can also jump without an altimeter...many do! But I wouldn't. I'd rather ride the plane back down.

That's fine, but I recommend you make a jump or two without your visual altimeter (or perhaps with it covered over with tape) to work on altitude awareness. Perhaps set a dytter to 3000 feet and try to pull by 3500. After you open, peel off the tape and check your altimeter. That will tell you if your visual sense of altitude works, or if it's off a bit (and more importantly, how much it's off.) My visual sense is usually 500-1000 feet low in that I break off 500-1000 feet higher if I can't see my altimeter. Knowing that helps me make better decisions on the occasions I jump without an altimeter (i.e. it breaks, or I loan it to a new grad who forgot theirs.)

> I just have enough years behind me to know that I'm flawed, I
>screw up, and want as many protection devices behind me as I can
> possibly have for the times I DO screw up (as I know I WILL screw
> up! Heck, I already have - not needed a cypres, but still, I've
> screwed up more than once!)

Nothing wrong with that, but I suggest that you take a two pronged approach.

1. Use backup devices to help mitigate the results of a screwup.

2. Learn to avoid the screwup _without_ the backup devices by practicing doing just that.

2 is just as (if not more important than) 1. A skydiver without a dytter who can eyeball altitude is safer than a skydiver who has a dytter, but can't eyeball altitude. Like everything else in this sport, it just takes practice.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Nothing wrong with that, but I suggest that you take a two pronged approach.

1. Use backup devices to help mitigate the results of a screwup.

Yup...absolutely...and that's what I hope they do if I ever need them to.

Quote

2. Learn to avoid the screwup _without_ the backup devices by practicing doing just that.

2 is just as (if not more important than) 1. A skydiver without a dytter who can eyeball altitude is safer than a skydiver who has a dytter, but can't eyeball altitude. Like everything else in this sport, it just takes practice.

And, as usual, I completely agree with you. Just like I don't use a seat belt and therefore don't feel the need to learn to drive well...
I don't use a dytter or cypres and figure that I no longer need to learn to use my eyes or other senses.

Funny thing...I DREAM skydiving - and not in the "whee...lets have fun!" way...I dream it in preparation for emergencies. I have had about every malfunction I can think of in my dreams..

one of them was that I had jumped...and looked down and didn't have an altimeter. I looked around and was completely alone, so nobody I could hook up with or watch deploy...
I remember in my dream counting to 30 while watching the ground before pulling (and doing nothing but counting and staring at the ground/horizon)....estimating my altitude after that time and such...

what's funny is that my backup devices (cypres, dytter), I actually FORGET that I have them once in the air. I'm always a little alarmed when my dytter goes off - because I forget about it! And when I had my hard pull reserve ride, it wasn't until that evening when someone mentioned my cypress that it even occured to me that if I HADN'T pulled at 2K (as I did) that it would have fired...just never occured to me.
interesting, though, that I never forget to turn either one on at the beginning of the day.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[jumpndoc 0]

Quote

And in _my_ opinion, people who will never, ever make a jump without a cypres may be placing too much trust in a mechanical device, one that has been known to fail. Doesn't mean they should stop jumping, just that they should be very careful about becoming too dependent on any one piece of gear.

Because I won't jump without an AAD does not make me 'more dependant' on a mechancal device than I ought to be. It just adds one more layer of protection against brain fart, other skydivers or any other number of unforseen incidents that could cause me to not pull.
I have had a malfuntion and cut-away, and pulled my own silver handle with plenty of time as per BSR's and know I can do it. Does that mean I should just throw away the great technology of AAD's? The logic doesn't hold water.

[bodypilot90 0]

I believe a dz would lower it;s risks better with banning hook turns than requiring aad's

edit to add

and what Bill said

[billvon 2,380]

>Because I won't jump without an AAD does not make me 'more
> dependant' on a mechancal device than I ought to be.

By definition, it does. Your jumping depends on your having an AAD. The discussion then devolves to "is that a bad thing? How bad is it?"

>It just adds one more layer of protection against brain fart, other
> skydivers or any other number of unforseen incidents that could
>cause me to not pull.

Right, and making sure you can jump and _not_ have a brain fart is important. One way to do that is to be willing to jump without a cypres.

>I have had a malfuntion and cut-away, and pulled my own silver
> handle with plenty of time as per BSR's and know I can do it.

That's great; that means that you can now make a better decision on whether to use an RSL or not, since you have shown you can handle cutaways and will know what to expect.

>Does that mean I should just throw away the great technology of AAD's?

What does that have to do with cutaways? AAD's are useful when you forget to pull, not when you forget to cut away.

[relyon 0]

Quote

100% my thoughts

Yup, me three.

Bob

[faulknerwn 36]

Quote

I don't think I would drive on an expressway if my seatbelt was broken.

I don't think I would drive 20mph over the speed limit without ABS or SRS.

I know I don't drive my SUV like it was my sportscar.

I adjust what I do based on what equipment I have available.

As Bill booth's law states - skydivers will adjust what they do to keep a constant level of safety. Numerous studies show that drivers take more risks if they're in a car with safety features like airbags and ABS.

As skydiving fatalities from no-pulls went down, skydivers bought tiny canopies so they can kill themselves that way.

I believe everyone should be able to jump without an altimeter - I've had them go weird in freefall or digital ones turn off on multiple occasions. If you're afraid to jump without one in controlled conditions, how will you handle it in uncontrolled conditions? Because altimeters do screw up. Its much better to learn to do these things in controlled conditions. I've lent mine to others on numerous occasions because I'm comfortable jumping without one where they weren't.

Years ago, back when I had ~200 jumps or so, I thought like many of the new jumpers on here do. I thought Cypreses were great and everyone should jump with one. I always did, and never thought I was depending on it. Then I quit freefall for a while and concentrated on CRW, and when I came back to freefall (and since i had sold my Cypres when I quit freefall), I found myself saying No to loads I used to would have said yes to. And that's what's struck me - I didn't realize it at the time but I was going on loads that I wouldn't have otherwise because I had a Cypres. Since I was now without one, I discovered myself saying no.

The smart thing to do is to say no, rather than get on loads where you might need a Cypres. But in my case, I was completely unaware that that was even in my thought process. Which is why I tell people, if you won't do a jump without a Cypres on your back, you should think long and hard about whether you should do it with one. Because on multiple occasions, all the Cypres has done is ensure a good-looking corpse for the funeral - getting knocked out in numerous cases breaks your neck or causes other deadly injuries. And if you're not jumping a big reserve - big enough to land you going downwind unconscious out of control, don't bet on the Cypres to save your life. I see a lot of big guys who have Cypreses but 120 sq ft reserves. I just don't get it.

I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination don't have one. I think they're good things and they are very good for people to jump with. But I think a lot of people out there are unconsciously choosing to take greater risks - just like the studies have shown in cars - people who have ABS and airbags and such - take more risks. Don't take more risks just because you have a safety device. If you want to be safer, don't take any risks with one than you would without one. Otherwise you're at best breaking even, maybe even decreasing your odds

Use a Cypres, but don't make a skydive which you wouldn't make without it. I had no idea I was doing it until I jumped without one.

[Ron 7]

Quote

You may think thats bad, I disagree. I think thats reality.

It is bad...To go on dives that you would not just cause you have a CYPRES is stupid.

And it DOES show dependence.

Quote

Thats reality for me, and for most newer jumpers. I think the only reason you don't understand this is because you started before they were common.

And you don't understand our position since you are part of the CYPRES generation.

Quote

Your arguments against them come accross as nothing more then bravado.

Uh, no. They are the voice of experience...We see jumpers doing things just cause they have an AAD...We see people who are skydiving that don't have the confidence to do it without one.

And that is bad.

To use your pilot analogy.....

If a student pilot would not fly in a plane unless it had a colision avoidance system, or a windshear warning system...Chances are no one would sign them off to solo.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334