No AAD, No Jump

[billvon 2,384]

>From what I read, she's not saying you should stop jumping if you
>don't have an AAD.

I didn't think she did. She just said "In my opinion it is just too risky to jump without that life saving device." And in _my_ opinion, people who will never, ever make a jump without a cypres may be placing too much trust in a mechanical device, one that has been known to fail. Doesn't mean they should stop jumping, just that they should be very careful about becoming too dependent on any one piece of gear. You should be able to jump with nothing on but a rig and be able to save your own life; that way, all the additional gadgets are just extra protection, and not required for your survival.

[Pendragon 1]

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I thiink in England it is mandatory country wide

Nope. Some dropzones it's a requirement (Netheravon, Dunkeswell and maybe some others), but not country wide.

It's about to become a requirement everywhere in the UK for anyone without a "B" licence or higher.

I always use an AAD, but I can understand those who prefer not to jump with one as they keep control of the reserve deployment. Making it compulsory for everyone is a bit of an overkill; making it compulsory for the inexperienced is probably about right I'd guess.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[akjmpplt 0]

As an aircraft owner/jump pilot I made the decision a few years back to make an AAD mandatory to jump from my airplane. A few months before a friend died in an incident where an AAD probably would have saved her. Then a friend lived because he was made to have an AAD on his first board jump (Cypres save). I did it because of the liability. It angered a few jumpers and they quit. The vast majority had no problem with using an AAD, and in fact many of them were already using AADs.

If the person that is the front runner in the liability risk wants to require AADs (or anything else safety oriented) that is his choice. It's his sandbox, he gets to make the rules. If you can't play by his rules you can always jump somewhere else, or buy and airplane an open a drop zone.

I now fly for a DZO that promotes but does not require AADs for experienced jumpers. All students have them of course.

SmugMug

[WrongWay 0]

I haven't really noticed a trend, but I believe that's because I jump a Cypres and no one complains if you already have one.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[KolinskyDC 0]

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(TARD from what I've heard too )

What does TARD stand for??

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Look at the Cypres save page. There are less then 20 saves from being knocked out and more then a hundred from people just loosing altitude awareness.

[PhreeZone 14]

TARD = Totally Awsome Radical Deployment. Basically you hold the canopy above your head and toss it up a little bit as you step off. Crazy....

Look at the BASE fatility list, more then one person has lost altitude awareness.
http://hometown.aol.com/base194/myhomepage/base_fatality_list

#17, #33, #36, #37, #46, #48, #51 (but that one has a list of issues a mile long), #56,#60, possibly #62 , #66, #67, possible #76 all had altitude awareness problems BASE jumping.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 7]

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A few months before a friend died in an incident where an AAD probably would have saved her.

Was she knocked out?

I think the CYPRES is a good tool. But to many newer jumpers treat them like a "save all" device.
And that is bad.

Simple fact is most "saves" are simple loss of altitude and very few saves are people getting knocked out.

But eveyone gets one saying "I have it incase I get knocked out"..

A more realistic way of justifing it is "I have one incase I screw up...I don't want to die for a stupid mistake". But thats not cool, so almost everyone uses the "Knocked out" line..Cause see thats cool.

As for DZO's or pilots that require them...ITs cool with me. Its a buisness, and they have the right to ask for what they want.

If I had a DZ I might make AAD's manditory...But I would save more people with my wingloading charts, and education.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[KolinskyDC 0]

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Look at the BASE fatility list, more then one person has lost altitude awareness.
http://hometown.aol.com/base194/myhomepage/base_fatality_list

Thanks for correcting me, it just seemed unlikely to lose altitude awareness when you really don't have much altitude to begin with. For those people doing BASE jumps from over 1000 feet, couldn't they use a Cypress? Just wondering.

Melissa

"May the best of your past be the worst of your future"

[mr2mk1g 10]

Its gotta go up to 1500 ft before it will arm and it needs a sping loaded pilot chute to work. Thats without considering if jumpers want it firing at 750ft AGL or if there are even sufficient decent rates to cause it to fire.

Maybe a special BASE cypres thats specially suited to their needs, but I doubt a stock cypres would be much use.

[MarkM 0]

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A more realistic way of justifing it is "I have one incase I screw up...I don't want to die for a stupid mistake". But thats not cool, so almost everyone uses the "Knocked out" line..Cause see thats cool.

Yeah, that's why I got my Cypres. I really doubt I'll ever get knocked out, though that's a risk, but as a low time jumper I am at a decent risk for a "stupid mistake". I've never once missed my pull altitude, by any amount, and I'm determined never to do that, but I think you have to look realistically at your skill level and assess what's likely to kill you.

[Ron 7]

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Yeah, that's why I got my Cypres. I really doubt I'll ever get knocked out, though that's a risk,

while its not likley to happen...It CAN. You would be much safer jumping without an AAD, but jumping a big canopy.

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but as a low time jumper I am at a decent risk for a "stupid mistake".

We all make stupid mistakes. Even the worlds best Patrick (not that an AAD would have helped), Tommy, Loftis, Harris, Sandy....ect.

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I've never once missed my pull altitude, by any amount, and I'm determined never to do that,

Oh you are gonna one day. Just don't freak when you do.

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but I think you have to look realistically at your skill level and assess what's likely to kill you.

Yep, but again you would be safer without an AAD and jumping a big canopy. Than jumping a high wingload with an AAD.

All these folks that say they would never jump without an AAD, but have high wingloads...Man that is funny.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

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We all make stupid mistakes. Even the worlds best Patrick (not that an AAD would have helped), Tommy, Loftis, Harris, Sandy....ect.

I was at Quincy the day that Jerry went in. I landed about 15 minutes afterward when all the emergency vehicles were still out there.

I was also on the Ga State Rec attempt that Sandy organized one month before her collision.

The fatalities are the ones that people hear about.
You probably know Buzz, who organizes at Lake Wales. He was also knocked out and his AAD saved him. He hit his head hard enough to crack his Protec, but didn't know how it happened.

It may not happen to me, but it has happened to too many people that I know.

If mine ever fires, I will put my gear in the closet for 6 months and think about why.

[pilotdave 0]

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All these folks that say they would never jump without an AAD, but have high wingloads...Man that is funny.

I see that as apples and oranges. You might say its funny when swoopers wear helmets. They'd be safer if they just got bigger canopies and wouldn't need the helmets, right? But obviously jumping a small canopy is a calculated risk. Jumping without an AAD is a completely different calculated risk (though plenty of people see jumping with an AAD as a bigger calculated risk). To me, what you said is about the same as finding it funny that I jump out of planes and yet I wear a seatbelt when I drive.

Dave

[Ron 7]

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I see that as apples and oranges

Well I see it this way...More skydivers die from bad moves under canopies than get knocked out.

More jumpers die from high wingloads than no pulls.

So I find it funny that a guy will say he will not jump without an AAD, but will load up a canopy.

He is more likley to die from the canopy.

So I find it funny...You don't have to agree...Its called humor.

Not everyone likes Knock-knock jokes.

I like irony.

And the folks that jump a high wingload but scream that jumping without an AAD is dangerous..Well that is ironic.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[goose491 0]

Cars used to be built withouth seatbelts. Can you beleive it?

After the advents of seatbelts. You could buy a car with or without them. Can you beleive that?

Today, they are mandatory. Can you beleive that?

hehe, I'm all for the "Let the people decide for themselves" but if AADs become mandatory for all jumpers, I could bitch about other things.

just my 2 cents.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Tinkerbelle 5]

Good one Quade! I laughed and am still smiling!
Wow, chill, Mr. Dude, such scrutiny!
Any way since he wants to hear it from the horses mouth, yet again, and please no one get on my case for repeating myself, this is just to honor a request...
I don't care if you jump with or without an AAD or even a parachute for that matter, and I don't care if you want to marry your cat either... off topic...
Do as you choose!
I am just saying for myself I wouldn't jump without an AAD- too Murfyesque. Also for those DZs who do want to require them, that puts a heavy expectation on people showing up out of the blue who may not be prepared to meet that requirement, so they should rent them to accomodate those without!
Far be it for me to tell anyone to do anything, but you be sure to have a nice day, John!
Tink

[Tinkerbelle 5]

exactamundo my friend!

All I was saying there was... I hate it when you have your own personal beliefs and feelings and when someone disagrees with you, they put you and yours down by asserting that "well, then you should just stop jumping... or... get out of the sport!" That is an all too popular substanceless put down.

And if Mr. John had read more carefully by saying that I am in essence in complete agreement with him.

They're just playing the jump on Annie and burn her at the stake no matter what.. game, but don't worry, I'm not talking it personally. I am too zen for that!

[Tinkerbelle 5]

It's not a relying on it or not thing, just superstition- a Murphy thing! I believe in magic too, it works!

[pilotdave 0]

I like knock knock jokes.

Dave

[Markj 0]

I don't have a problem jumping without an AAD but if I had the money then I would buy one. I am sure its the same for a lot of people. Not many people can fork out money for a rig then go and buy an AAD on top of that. If I had to go and buy a Cypres2 now then it would cost more that my whole rig cost, even second hand ones are expensive. Thats why I think that they shouldn't make it mandatory to have one.

M.J

[dragon2 0]

In Holland an AAD is mandatory until your C license. In France an AAD is mandatory, period.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Harksaw 0]

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who says they wouldn't jump without a cypres. AADs have drastically reduced the number of fatalities in this sport caused from low/no pulls, am I wrong on this? It therefore changes the danger level of the sport to a level where people will jump now who otherwise wouldn't.

I wouldn't jump without two ram-air canopies on my back, does that mean I am too dependent on my gear?

Me, I jump with an AAD mostly to calm down my parents and girlfriend. But I understand that some people wouldn't jump without the lowered risk.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[goose491 0]

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It's not a relying on it or not thing, just superstition- a Murphy thing! I believe in magic too, it works!

I'm not superstitious... that's bad luck.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,384]

>It therefore changes the danger level of the sport to a level
>where people will jump now who otherwise wouldn't.

And that's the problem. If we have a sport where everyone is willing/confident enough/experienced enough etc to jump without a cypres, we're in better shape than a sport where people feel they need a cypres to be able to jump safely. It's bad to depend on _any_ piece of equipment - and one way to define dependence is something you absolutely cannot live without.

[AndyMan 7]

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And that's the problem.

Its no more a problem then those who won't jump without a reserve (ie, BASE).

Any criticism of people who insist upon the device is nothing more then arogant bravado by people who think they've been around the block.

I have jumped without one, I'll avoid doing so again whenever possible. Likewise, I'll avoid jumping without a reserve whenever possible - that's why i don't do BASE.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.