No AAD, No Jump

[christoofar 0]

Has anyone noticed a trend, up or down, in the number of spots requiring AAD? I've been hearing rumors one way and the other. I thought AAD was just a back up device, not a requirement to jump.

I will never jump without one anymore (already been through enough mals without one), but I think it's bizarre to make it a requirement. Requiring AAD almost feels like "you can't jump here unless your canopy is ZP and your wingloading is less than 1.5"

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Jimbo 0]

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"you can't jump here unless your canopy is ZP and your wingloading is less than 1.5"

Haven't seen the ZP requirement yet, but I know that there's at least one DZ out there that doesn't allow loadings of more than 1.5. When we fail to police ourselves, someone will always step in and do it for us.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Tinkerbelle 5]

I would never jump without an AAD, have, but won't any more. It's just too much of a Murphy risk! Once I was at a boogie and my reserve was out of date-went to get a repack and the rigger said my AAD was over 6 years old and had to be sent back for a recheck. He said he could just take it out and I could jump. I said, NO WAY! He and everyone around gave me shit about how it should just be a backup, and if I'm too afraid of jumping w/out it, or doubt that I could respond to emergencies using all my other handles, maybe I shouldn't be jumping-
I hate it when arrogant people make that assertion... well if.... you should just stop jumping! That's so lame!
Anyway, Cpress was really cool, they sent me a new one next day air and I sent my old one back. All they charged me for was the new update, the in field cutter. I only misses a half a day!
To all those people who think they're too cool to not want to jump without their AAD, everyone whould remember Tommy Piras- one of skydivings most awesome skydivers & folk heros- who did most of his jumping before AADs were popular. He got one, a cypress, but had forgotten to turn it on. In the plane he mentioned for someone to be sure to remind him to turn it on when they got down...
Well, someone opened right under him on that jump, he fell through their canopy striking his head on their knee, and was knocked out. He came to just above the ground and pulled his reserve, but it was too late. He's gone now!
Murphy is into aviation and hangs out at DZs/airports. In my opinion it is just too risky to jump without that life saving device. It's tragic to read the incidents in which an AAD would have saved their life.
As per requiring it to jump at a DZ, I think a DZ has the right to make any requirement they want, after all it is a private business, and if you die, their reputaion is at risk. But since people may not all have one and may not be prepared to this requirement, and it would be a shame to be turned away unexpectedly after traveling there, etc... the DZ making that requirement should at least provide them to rent. You don't need to repack the reserve to put one in, but considering the Patrique DeGayardon thing, it might be wise. Who cares about the 100 bucks you saved if you're dead!

[AndyMan 7]

I will never criticize someone for choosing an additional safety margin in skydiving.

Among the people that I jump with, I honestly don't think I know anyone who doesn't have one, except in exceptional situations - like a decicated CRW rig.

If a DZ wants to further minimise their exposure while pissing off virtually nobody....? Sounds like a good choice to me.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[vdschoor 0]

My first 250 jumps were without an AAD, just RSL on my setup. Looking back at it I think it should have been the other way around, those first couple of hundred jumps are the ones where you might experience your first malfunction e.a.

Right now in Belgium they are about to start requiring a cypress for people up to X amount of jumps, I see this as a good thing, but then on the other hand if that requirement was in place a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have been able to jump (or at least not that much) because I simply didn't have the money for a cypress back then.

In short, it's everybodies personal choice to have or not have one. Right now? I wouldn't buy a rig without equipping it with a cypress, but if it had to go back for service or something, I would jump my rig without it. I know it is taking a chance, because what if someone knocks me out? But I would probably take it but do "less dangerous" jumps during that time.
Like not doing formations with inexperienced people that might take me out (even though this can happen with experienced people too of course)

The only reason for a cypress on your gear is to open your reserve for you when you are not conscious, or lost altitude awareness. But if I ever had a cypress fire because I lost altitude awareness, I would consider getting out of the sport. For me personally I have a cypress on there in case I get knocked out or for whatever reason I cant pull my reserve.

Just my 2 cts.

Iwan

[TimDave 0]

I thiink in England it is mandatory country wide.

[PhreeZone 15]

I sent mine in for maintence last week, repacked the rig this morning and proceeded to jump with out one. No big deal.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[TimDave 0]

If you are comfortable jumping w/o one that is fine. If you are not that is also ok.

[JohnRich 4]

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In my opinion it is just too risky to jump without that life saving device. It's tragic to read the incidents in which an AAD would have saved their life.

And in my opinion, each experienced skydiver should be allowed to decide for themself what level of risk is acceptable to them, and not have that decision made for them by someone else.

According to your philosophy, BASE jumping would be outlawed, since it is done from altitudes too low for a Cypress to help. Do you want to ban BASE jumping because it is "too dangerous"?

[quade 3]

She didn't say anything about outlawing jumps without AADs.

She said that in her opinion skydiving was too dangerous for her to consider doing it without taking advantage of something that exists to help mitigate those dangers.

She also said that a business has every right to make up its own rules regarding the equipment that must be used by its customers.

Actually, she kinda makes sense if you actually read what she has to say rather than looking for points to attack.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slotperfect 7]

How many US DZ's do y'all know of that have an AAD requirement? Air Adventures Skydiving in San Diego is the only one I personally know of (but I'm far from being an authority on the subject).

Raeford does not require them for the general skydiving population, but requires them for their instructional and video staff. Of course, all tandem rigs and student rigs are AAD equipped as well.

I don't believe that individual businesses (DZO's) choosing to make AADs mandatory will start a trend. Anyone with a 100% AAD end state in mind would be more successful petitioning USPA members and presenting their case to the USPA BOD.

Question for the DZOs who have made them mandatory: was your choice because of a desire for increased safety in the sport, or to fend off the litigative legal environment in your state??

Arrive Safely

John

[JohnRich 4]

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She didn't say anything about outlawing jumps without AADs.

She said that in her opinion skydiving was too dangerous for her to consider doing it without taking advantage of something that exists to help mitigate those dangers..

I would prefer to wait for her own reply, rather than to have you speaking on her behalf.

She implied that she would like to see everyone jumping with AAD's, i.e. not allowing people to jump without them. I didn't take it to mean that she was speaking only for herself. In support of this interpretation, I offer the following quotes from her message:

"Once I was at a boogie and my reserve was out of date... He said he could just take it out (the AAD) and I could jump. I said, NO WAY!... I hate it when arrogant people make that assertion... well... you should just stop jumping!"

Notice how she said "you" should just stop jumping, without an AAD.

"To all those people who think they're too cool to not want to jump without their AAD, everyone whould remember Tommy Piras..."

She uses a fatality incident to support her assertion that people should jump with AAD's. She's talking of other people again, not herself.

"In my opinion it is just too risky to jump without that life saving device. It's tragic to read the incidents in which an AAD would have saved their life."

Once again she is putting her judgement upon others.

"I think a DZ has the right to make any requirement they want... But since people may not all have one (AAD) and may not be prepared to this requirement, and it would be a shame to be turned away unexpectedly after traveling there, etc... the DZ making that requirement should at least provide them to rent."

Yet again, she implies that if a DZ requires an AAD, she supports that decision, and then suggests that everyone should have to modify their equipment to comply, rather than to allow them to jump without an AAD by their own choice.

"Who cares about the 100 bucks you saved if you're dead!"

One more time she is putting her personal judgement upon others.

I'll wait to hear it directly from her, if she really does not mean to impose her view upon other jumpers. But from what she has said so far, that's what it sounds like to me.

[skybytch 259]

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Air Adventures Skydiving in San Diego is the only one I personally know of (but I'm far from being an authority on the subject).

The only other one that I know of is Skydive Miami; they require an AAD for freeflying but not for RW. I don't know this from personal experience but from what a customer of mine told me.

My take on DZ's requiring AAD's is that a DZO has the right to make whatever rules they want for their DZ.

[quade 3]

John, why do I get the feeling that if somebody says to you, "have a nice day" you'll reply, "Don't tell ME what to do!" and really mean it?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[koz2000 1]

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John, why do I get the feeling that if somebody says to you, "have a nice day" you'll reply, "Don't tell ME what to do!" and really mean it?

I've got to admit that one made me laugh

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

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I thiink in England it is mandatory country wide

Nope. Some dropzones it's a requirement (Netheravon, Dunkeswell and maybe some others), but not country wide.

Just out of interest, how many people jump a reserve that small that it wouldn't land them well at all if they were unconcious?

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[Unstable 8]

I jump at a DZ that requires an AAD to jump - It makes perfect sense to me......

Look at it this way, as business owners, the DZOs are in a situation where they are on thin ice...One bounce and the city can come in and say "you're done...". You must look at the risk you are willing to assume and go from there - I have nothing against a DZ that requires an AAD - now that there are more than one brand available, hopefully they will become more available to everyone!!!!

=========Shaun ==========

[Jimbo 0]

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John, why do I get the feeling that if somebody says to you, "have a nice day" you'll reply, "Don't tell ME what to do!" and really mean it?

Come on, Quade. Your previous post seems condescending, as though you are explaining to John what he should have already understood. Then you get upset when he calls you on it?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[quade 3]

One of the tactics I'm starting to see more and more is calling someone or someone's post "condescending".

It's a little like the phrase "activist judge" in that if someone has a different opinion than yourself all you have to do is call him, "condescending" as if that nullifies the validity of what he has said.

Read what I wrote in the first and point out anything that I said that wasn't true. I'll freely admit that what I wrote in the second post may seem like a joke, but it's also my current and very real feeling.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,396]

>Has anyone noticed a trend, up or down, in the number of spots
>requiring AAD?

Skydive San Diego just removed their AAD requirement. It is now optional for people over 1000 jumps.

>I will never jump without one anymore (already been through enough
> mals without one) . . .

Strange; to me, the people who need them are the ones that _haven't_ proven they can deal with serious problems in freefall.

>Requiring AAD almost feels like "you can't jump here unless your
>canopy is ZP and your wingloading is less than 1.5"

Several DZ's have loading limits.

[billvon 2,396]

>I hate it when arrogant people make that assertion... well if.... you
> should just stop jumping! That's so lame!

I don't think anyone who jumps only with an AAD should stop jumping, but if you refuse to ever, under any circumstances and in any conditions, jump without a cypres, there is a good chance that you are relying on a piece of gear to do more for you than it can.

Imagine, for example, a pilot who refuses to solo - he always wants an instructor or another pilot in the seat next to him, just in case. Do you think he might not be as self-reliant or as confident as a pilot who can fly solo?

[KolinskyDC 0]

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And in my opinion, each experienced skydiver should be allowed to decide for themself what level of risk is acceptable to them, and not have that decision made for them by someone else.

I agree but it is also the right of the DZ (personally owned business) to not accept that added liablility.

***According to your philosophy, BASE jumping would be outlawed, since it is done from altitudes too low for a Cypress to help. Do you want to ban BASE jumping because it is "too dangerous"?

[Harksaw 0]

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>I hate it when arrogant people make that assertion... well if.... you
> should just stop jumping! That's so lame!

I don't think anyone who jumps only with an AAD should stop jumping, but if you refuse to ever, under any circumstances and in any conditions, jump without a cypres, there is a good chance that you are relying on a piece of gear to do more for you than it can.

Imagine, for example, a pilot who refuses to solo - he always wants an instructor or another pilot in the seat next to him, just in case. Do you think he might not be as self-reliant or as confident as a pilot who can fly solo?

From what I read, she's not saying you should stop jumping if you don't have an AAD. She is saying that she doesn't like it when people say to other people "If you (insert arguement here), then you should stop jumping!"

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[PhreeZone 15]

Deployment for BASE is depending on the delay taken and the altitude. Very low jumps are static lined or PCA's (TARD from what I've heard too ) Then you have 1-3 second delays that are hand held then you have stowed exits for longer delays. AAD's are'nt used since the are exiting lower then one would be useful in most cases.

Look at the Cypres save page. There are less then 20 saves from being knocked out and more then a hundred from people just loosing altitude awareness.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sdgregory 0]

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John, why do I get the feeling that if somebody says to you, "have a nice day" you'll reply, "Don't tell ME what to do!" and really mean it?

I've got to admit that one made me laugh

I've got to admit it too. That was damn funny!