Impromptu lurkers on skydives

[kelel01 1]

I was just reading Billvon's thread about the freeflier lurking the 10-way, and it reminded me that I had an unexpected and somewhat (only somewhat, because he startled me more than anything else) unwelcome lurker on one of my solos. And this was not the first time it's happened to me . . . different people, even different dz's.

Is it supposed to be acceptable for people to give you no warning that they are going to follow you out the door? Be it one person, three people, lurking a solo, 5-way, whatever . . . is it acceptable? Is it safe? Should it be addressed? Edited to add: Should the questions be more centered on the experience level of the jumper? Like if TJ Landgren lurks, I probably wouldn't care (actually, I'd probably think it was badass.) But if Joe Schmoe 50-jump wonder lurks me uninvitedly, do I have a right to be annoyed?

Any input is appreciated! Thank you!

Kelly

[PlayDough 0]

Seems to me very unacceptable. I've not had an issue of this at my DZ. However we are constantly addressing the delay between groups. I would DEFINITELY address this issue with the person - if he is not receptive to your request, take it up with the load organizer or manifest.

Even if I'm wrong... you are paying for your jump -- and if you want to fly alone you are definitely entitled to do so.

[billvon 2,384]

>is it acceptable? Is it safe? Should it be addressed?

I don't think it's acceptable. It can be done safely if they discuss it with you beforehand, but just doing it can lead to a lot of problems. It should definitely be addressed. I'd suggest talking to him yourself first. If that doesn't work, then move on to the S+TA or the DZO.

[DJL 232]

We had a guy lurk our two way free-fly once. We had no clue until we broke from our spinning leg-lock exit. My boy, TheMonkey, saw him and pointed. Sure enough he was about 100 ft above us and over my shoulder in a stand, trying to catch up. He got withing 50 ft, directly over my head and we waved him away and tracked the opposite direction. He had no idea what we were doing in the jump, when we were going to our belly to break... On the ground I asked him what he was doing and he said, "In the plane I said to everyone that I needed to lurk a group to learn how to sit-fly." I was entirely dumbfounded and pissed.

Looking back I wish that I had talked to him a bit more about the danger he put us in. He was in a frickin stand 50' over ours heads... If we'd gone to our belly he could have broken us in half.

Edit:

Quote

Is it supposed to be acceptable for people to give you no warning that they are going to follow you out the door?

Completely unacceptable. No questions about it. They have no idea what you're doing or what your skill level is. The same about them. You could track and deploy right under them and that could be the end of it.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

... On the ground I asked him what he was doing and he said, "In the plane I said to everyone that I needed to lurk a group to learn how to sit-fly."

Un-be-lievable! that's an ignorant way to "learn"! I hope this person is learning solo these days AND how to communicate before getting on the plane.

_________________________________________

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I was at a boogie in Z-hills a long time ago and there was this guy who would lurk every group on his DC-3 pass in sequence. Olaf somebody I think.

[skybytch 259]

I was on a 30-ish way RW jump one time and the organizers allowed a talented freeflier to come play with us. It was way cool to see him orbiting us and very safely done.

I'd be one pissed off bytch if someone lurked a skydive I was on without having talked to the organizer (and/or every person on the dive) and gotten an okay and a briefing on the break off before getting in the airplane. There is no excuse for risking other people's lives without their knowledge or consent.

Doubt I'd confront the person myself though. Better to let the S&TA or DZO handle it.

[livnbored 0]

This has never really happened to me, but I've heard a lot of stories.....
a lot
Completly not acceptable!!! If they have no idea what's going on on the dive, they could kill you, themselves or both. This is not cool by any means.

[DBCOOPER 1]

In Pennsylvania they give us gun permits to protect ourselves from people trying to kill us.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[slotperfect 7]

Unplanned lurks are not cool at all. The lurker has no clue what the skydive plan is, and more importantly, does not know the break off plan, and may not have one for himself either.

Planned lurks are excellent - a good use of a solo jumper's time. They should be in the dirt dive and understand the "no-fly zones" that apply to that particular skydive, and understand his break off altitude and direction.

I have had unplanned lurkers in the sky with me, and have addressed each happening by making sure the person understood why it was dangerous, and how he should have gone about it to create it safely for all involved.

Last year, I made a special tandem for promotional photos and video. An unplanned lurker showed up in the video back behind me in the distance. I didn't know he was there until I watched the video. I was a little miffed about that one. The pics are golden, though!

Arrive Safely

John

[TribalTalon 0]

i've had guys lurk on freefly jumps before, i had no idea the guy was coming along, and startled me a little bit that he was there. but, he's a very good freeflyer and kept his distance so all was good. still wasnt really cool, i wouldnt have minded if he had told us he was coming, but eh whatever.

[Vertifly 0]

Quote

Is it supposed to be acceptable for people to give you no warning that they are going to follow you out the door? Be it one person, three people, lurking a solo, 5-way, whatever . . . is it acceptable? Is it safe? Should it be addressed? Edited to add: Should the questions be more centered on the experience level of the jumper?

You have every right to be annoyed. One of the reasons why we plan skydives is for the safety aspect. This type of behavior is abnormal amongst experienced jumpers and should be frowned upon by the majority.

I know that if someone ever popped in, unexpected, on my skydive that we would have a sit-down when we got down to the ground - solo or not!

However, there was a time when I fell into someone elses jump accidentally (I fell off of the bar on the skyvan while waiting for my group to go out - it is a long story, but it was an accident....trust me ). I remember making it a point to fly very close to this person so that he knew that I was there. This way he wouldn't track in my direction.

[SkySlut 0]

I got a story...We were doing a 8 way, good one, but I digress...we had a lurker. He had 30 somthing jumps. He said that he went out just to watch us. Well, we all broke off and the only thing that I remember is the sound of his canopy opening by me. He was about 30 ft from me. Interesting, scary...and a learning experience...KNOW WHO IS GOING OUT AFTER YOU....and for that matter before you. He had no idea of what he was doing.

[sunshine 2]

That is unacceptable. I get very pissed when someone decides to come along and lurk my dives. It's dangerous and if you're not comfortable talking to the person, find the S&TA and have them talk to the lurker.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[jumpinjackflash 0]

I know newbies should keep there mouths shut and listen and learn, but I've gott achime in.

I agree completely John. Planned lurking would be cool because the lurker would know what the plan was as well as the people being lurked...

Unplanned definitly not. As a low timer going out solo, I'd be highly pissed to look up and find someone in the sky with me unannounced. Even if it was a skygod, just not good practice.

I'd seriously come unglued.

Just not cool. Your coached to have your dive planned when you hit that door for a reason.

To have someone show up unplanned, knowing they were going to do it, it's bullshit. This is no time to be playing adlib. I can't imagine it.



my two cents,



jjf

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[kallend 1,621]

I don't care how good the individual may be, unplanned and unnanounced lurking is dangerous and unacceptable.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I don't care how good the individual may be, unplanned and unnanounced lurking is dangerous and unacceptable.

what he said - no excuses, someone doing that should be chewed out by the divers and then the S&TA should be told also as this definitely is a safety issue

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Stumpy 256]

Ok - I agree with points made, but what constitutes a lurk? I did a solo the other day, and although i thought i left plenty of separation and the JM said i was cool to go, once i exited i was still able to see the 2 way that had gone out before me quite easily. I was pulling high anyway but i did make a point of keeping an eye on them in case they tracked in my direction - so is a lurk where you are within touching distance or is it just a measure of intention? (sorry that sounds a bit convoluted but my brain has stopped working)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[WrongWay 0]

Me, I'd be totally fine with someone lurking if I knew that they were coming and if I were confident that they weren't going to kill me or anyone else on the dive. And if I were going to lurk, you bet your ass I'd ask permission first. Intruding someones dive is NOT cool.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[winsor 186]

In general, lurking without prior permission is both bad manners and potentially dangerous as hell.

Some years back, before the Earth was cool, I was jumping at a Cessna DZ in Wisconsin. We had a four way going in one of the 182s, and on the way to altitude I noticed the other 182 climbing out as well. The pilot assured me that it was no problem, since he was in contact with the other pilot, so we focused on the spot and the dive.

We put together a chunk exit - ready, set, go - it settled out nicely and Holy shit! There's someone hanging on my leg!

We had turned from a four-way into an eight-way - a four-way with flakers. We broke into a round, tracked off at a proper altitude and landed uneventfully.

At a small, throwback DZ where everyone knew each other this was okay. Everybody had done formation load RW, and knew the drill for the formation that resulted.

However, it is always safer to plan the dive and dive the plan.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

I was pulling high anyway but i did make a point of keeping an eye on them in case they tracked in my direction - so is a lurk where you are within touching distance or is it just a measure of intention?

There should be enough distance that they don't have to look for you. Any violation of the airspace that they are using is lurking and dangerous.

You said that you were keeping an eye on them. What if you went unstable for only a moment and lost track of them? Now everyone is in danger. Lurking is a bad idea because it is dangerous.

If you are lurking a bigway, what if they track farther than you expected? Or you go lower?

There is a multitude of possibilities. I'm not going to list 10 more reasons. It is a bad idea.

[billvon 2,384]

>but what constitutes a lurk?

Being too close to another group without talking about it beforehand. If you left enough separation and were just watching them it was not a lurk; indeed, in that situation, watching them can help ensure separation (i.e. you will see if you are sliding towards them or not.)

[Stumpy 256]

I didn't intentionally go out to jump "with" them, i left (what i thought was) a good 8 to 10 seconds, i just happened to be able to see them quite clearly which i was not expecting (normally i seem to be totally alone in freefall!).
For that exact reason i also didn't do some of the loops and rolls i had been intending so i didn't lose track of where they were.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Stumpy 256]

Quote

Being too close to another group without talking about it beforehand. If you left enough separation and were just watching them it was not a lurk; indeed, in that situation, watching them can help ensure separation (i.e. you will see if you are sliding towards them or not.)

Thanks - thats what i was hoping
Hopefully might get cat 10 soon and then other people in the sky with me won't be such a novelty!!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[mjosparky 3]

Lurking when not invited can get you a pop in the chops.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals