tandems / HIV

[pullhigh 0]

In this case, it's not about what you are afraid of, it's about what the general publice is afraid of. Be it biased, ignorant, right, or wrong, it is the impression of the general public, and they are our tandem pasengers.

Ganja

[ScubaSteve 0]

I would still jump with you.

[winsor 185]

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this is no troll!

My life is now shattered because of something stupid that I did. I know better - we all "knew better" after the fact. Not careful just one time can do it. Doesn't excuse me for what is happening to me. I just found out about this last friday, and had it confirmed with another test thru another agency. I got the second result today. Figured that I didn't need to go for 3 out of 5 tests. My head is pounding from the rise in blood pressure that I am experiencing - I can't sleep at night, I hear a sad song and break into tears. I am afraid to talk to my friends - the straight ones don't know anything about my private life - and I'm afraid that the gay ones won't want to be around me. Right now I'm going thru a major period of feeling all alone and lost. I'm afraid to tell my straight friends - cause let's face it, I've seen some well liked skydivers come out of the closet - be snubbed and never heard from again.

Really? I guess I'm naive, but I just can't imagine anyone caring that much one way or another.

I know rather a few gay skydivers, and was under the impression that they were treated about the same as breeders. I could be wrong.

HIV is bad news, and it is unfortunate that it is viewed as a treatable chronic condition by many in the gay community - an impression fostered by pharmaceutical ads in gay publications (if CNN is to be believed).

Giving up tandems is probably a good idea, judging by how many TMs I've seen get nailed by students jumping up and down before the harness was unbuckled.

As far as being rejected is concerned, I'll jump with you (if you don't mind flat-flying).


Blue skies,

Winsor

[chachi 0]

You shouldn't give it up, but I wouldn't tell anyone about it. There is like 0 risk of transmitting to someone during a tandem. Fight the good fight.

~Chachi

[Jimbo 0]

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You shouldn't give it up, but I wouldn't tell anyone about it. There is like 0 risk of transmitting to someone during a tandem. Fight the good fight.

No, there isn't "0 risk of transmitting to someone during a tandem", the risk is small but certainly must play a factor in his decision. Considering that HIV/AIDS is a terminal illness (read: no known cure and kills every time), I think that the responsible thing to do is to quit with the tandems, but continue on with coaching and AFF (if that's a possibility).

The risk is small, but the consequences are far to dire to ignore.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[KolinskyDC 0]

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Don't give up jumping.
Don't give up tandems.
Don't take any shit from anyone.
You don't have to tell anyone.

As quoted above, the HIV transmission rates are far below 1% with a needle stick. Not just a needlestick, but a USED, HOLLOW needle that was used in a blood vessel (not subcutaneously or intramuscularly) that penetrates deep enough into the skin to draw blood. Just for comparison, the transmission rates for hepatitis B and C are orders of magnitude higher, yet you don't see people refusing to jump with someone who has hepatitis. Hell, most people would shrug their shoulders and not even care. Why the big deal about HIV? It's the social stigma attached to it, borne of ignorance and fear.
I work in the the ER and see far more people dying of hepatitis than HIV. Personally, I'd rather get stuck with a needle from an HIV infected patient than someone with hepatitis.
Transmitting it to your tandem student: pretty unlikely. You'd both have to have open wounds that are protruding through the suits. And if it happens, they can always take antiviral meds prophylactically to reduce the transmission rate from slim to infintesimal. Do you want to sacrifice your skydiving career and potentially make yourself an outcast by telling everyone (since from the responses to your question in this forum seem to confirm the popular misconception of the disease).
As far as telling people, I wouldn't. It's none of their business. If they're worried about contracting some disease, they shouldn't be helping people. It's a risk you take. Besides, they should be using universal precautions anyway and using gloves.
Even so, if you augered in and needed my help immediately, I'd help you, with or without gloves any day brother.

Joe N.

My thoughts exactly. If by some small chance you do end up bleeding into your student's open wound - and I havn't seen that in 19 years of skydiving - then tell them so they can choose to get antiretrovirals. Otherwise - mum's the word.

I admire your courage and honesty.

t

I completely 100% disagree with this line of thinking on this issue. I personally would have no problem doing a tandem with you, but that is my decision to make, not yours to make for me. It is not your right to make this choice for your tandem student, the risk, however small, is there, and they have every right in the world to know about it.

That is my opinion and with that being said

{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}

Many hugs and positive vibes being sent to you by myself and many others here. There are many people that live full lives with this disease, just take good care of yourself and try to remain positive and keep it in your head that you will be fine. I truly believe that a positive mental state has a huge effect on your physical well being. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Blue Skies!
Melissa

"May the best of your past be the worst of your future"

[altichick 0]

Given that chances of being injured in a car accident are greater than the chances of being injured skydiving... would people *really* suggest that HIV+ people should have to inform people travelling in the same vehicle as them that are HIV+ ??? I don't think so!

I don't think that doing a tandem is anywhere near as high risk as 100's of other activities people probably do each day. I don't imagine any HIV+ people who were doing tandems as a passenger would inform their instructors... for exactly the same reason.

As for telling people... that depends on what the people at your DZ are like... but I'd be really careful about it and make sure they have access to good information... as you can see from this thread some people have some totally misinformed about what the risks are.

Good luck & I hope you keep on jumping - in what ever way you decxde is best for you.

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[PhreeZone 14]

>Given that chances of being injured in a car accident are greater than the chances of being injured skydiving...

Not this argurement again... If you truely believe this then be happy in your bubble world.

If you want to relate it to driving, there is no direct relationship since as a passenger you rarely have the ability to injure the driver like you do skydiving. As a Tandem instructor you take on the extra responcibility of primary safety for your student. That is a lot of responcilbity and if you feel that you have taken every procaution then feel free doing it, but also realize that you need to take those procautions with every student, no execeptions.

In a lot of ways I think that this is one of those things that unless you are an instuctor you really can't directly relate to the issue. Its theory to everyone else, but its direct happenings to instructors.

If you ever want to fly in a BM suit look me up, I'd flock with you any day of the week.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skydivingfool 0]

DB I am so very sorry. Major VIBES for you man.

IMHO I think that you have your answer already. Asking the question should I continue being a TM means that you have that little voice in the back of your head saying this is a bad idea. It sounds like you are looking for validation to continue being a TM. It’s the same as the newbie 200 lbs jumper asking should I downsize from a 230 to a 170. If you have to ask the question you probably shouldn’t be doing it. I understand that it is truly difficult to give up something you love. If you continue to TM chances are that you will never transmit the disease. Again IMO regardless of the odds it is your obligation to consider the worst case scenario. Are you willing to give an unknowing person the same disease that you have and have them go through what you are experiencing now? Again chances are that this will NEVER happen, but if it does how would that effect you?

If you really believe that you can minimize the risk then by all means continue jumping tandems. Continuing to bring happiness to a whole new world of jumpers. If that small little doubt stays in your head then I say try to find new ways of brining happiness to new jumpers lives. Camera, JM, Coach etc.

Good luck wit your decision

[boxingrrl 0]

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I don't imagine any HIV+ people who were doing tandems as a passenger would inform their instructors...

I'm glad that someone brought this up. I used to work in a health care facility with kids with multiple disabilities. Most of them had horrible pasts and behavior issues, and spent a great deal of time hurting themselves or others. As health care workers, we had no right to know which of these kids had bloodborne illnesses (HIV, and Hepatitis B or C.) Because of their right to confidentiality, we exercised universal precautions with all wounds and bodily fluids. (As anyone should in healthcare or at the DZ.) There were protocols for dealing with exposures-- testing and the administration of appropriate therapies.

As a tandem master, you will never know what your students may be exposing you to, until something happens. Some may argue that turn about is fair play.

Legally-- I think you have to look at the "reasonable person standard". Would a reasonable person think that they were likely to expose someone to HIV by taking him/her on a tandem?

I think that's what we're trying to figure out here...

No answers, DB, only more questions.

Best of luck to you!

[deadboy2004 0]

well, gotta admit that I am gonna be staying positive with this. what a terrible pun.

you guys and gals have been terrific with this so far. I really appreciate all the comments made.

I finally broke down and talked to a guy at work that is HIV+ about what is going on with me and he was absolutely - what do I want to say - understanding, compassionate, helpful. I'v never talked to him about it before - not even sure that he was +. He's been + for 21 years and still healthy. He's more than willing to help me out, talk to me about it, and get me thru the beginning phases of this. I'm really feeling better after our talk - and reading all the enourgaging things that you have been posting has really helped a great deal. I wish that I could get you all to move to my DZ so I could have a built in support group. I'm really worried about what my friends here will say.

thanks for being out there.

If anyone out there still things that this is a troll, my e-mail address is [email protected] I will be happy to correspond with anyone and answer any questions you might have (except for name and location).

[AndyMan 7]

What I think it comes down to, is that there are very few jobs in this world where there is an obligation to inform anyone of HIV status.

You are not the first person to find yourself in this situation, thankfully you are in a position to choose your own outcome. It really is up to you.

What you should remember is that there are cops, doctors, nurses, and even firefighters in some jurisdictions who work while being HIV+.

I'm sure a lot of people would object if they knew, but thankfully we live in a society where privacy is a right.

I have absolutely no doubt that parents would be up in arms if they knew an HIV teacher was teaching their children gym class. The only reason parents aren't up in arms is that they don't know about it when it happens. It simply isn't any of their business, they don't have that right.

Thankfully the courts have been pretty consistent in this area too.

You are in a position to choose your outcome, and the're a long list of pioneers ahead of you that have given you the right to make these decisions for yourself.

It really is your choice.

That said, I think you owe to to yourself to really consider what alternatives exist. This really isn't a "tm or no tm" question. There's a great many people who get a lot of enjoyment from videoing tandems, for example. They still get a sense of that same excitement as the TM, but are just one step removed.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[KolinskyDC 0]

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I wish that I could get you all to move to my DZ so I could have a built in support group. I'm really worried about what my friends here will say.

Not to be harsh, but if your friends at the DZ or anywhere else are not supportive of you then they really aren't friends to begin with. Even though we do not live where you do, we are still here to support you, and I am sure I speak for many here, anytime you want come on out for a visit, would be happy to jump with you.

Melissa

"May the best of your past be the worst of your future"

[Keith 0]

WOW. I'm impressed by your response

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[skydivexxl 0]

Did you hear that? That is the sound of peoples minds slamming closed. I hear a lot of Reagan-era babble. That's like telling an HIV+ person that they shouldn't ride the bus, because they will be in close contact to others.

My $.02

Keep doing tandems.

Keep your status to yourself, it's your life.

If you trust them tell your DZO in confidence, so if needed, precautions could be taken.

Seek advice from professionals- SF Aids foundation for one, not from DZ.com (not the most open minded people)

I have worked with HIV+ people since the mid 80's, and I will ALWAYS encourage them to live life as they want!

Blog Clicky

[mww115 0]

Joe N is right on. I TOO work in a ER where I have the risk of getting any number of diseases. HIV exposure can be treated immediately after exposure with the appropriate meds, and given the choice between HIV or Hepatitis, Pamala Anderson can keep it. DB said it best; his coworker is going on 20+ years without any significant deterioration in his condition. That's alot more common these days than the 80's when we knew nothing about the disease and people died quickly. To be infected, you have to mix blood; in essence, the blood flowing from a students open wound has to allow back into the body someone else's blood. Difficult. The first responder without gloves has a better chance of getting it, and having spent 5 yeats in fire and EMS, I have touched bloody patients without gloves. My bad? ABSOLUTELY. DO I take responsibility for my actions, again, ABSOLUTELY. So don't let DZ 'I took a first aid course medics' dictate your future b/c they don't wear gloves. And DB, it is your personal decision to inform who you want. There's less of a stigma in the Medical setting (HIV positive staff in ERs) because we know more. And does the patient coming in need to know? No. Because the risk of me stabbing myself with a needle, triping, falling, injecting them with a viral load of infected blood is just so low. I'd jump with you as a Tandem master or a videographer. Best of luck in your decision, I'll say a prayer for you, but even if with just a buddy, GET OUT AND JUMP.

Until you've stepped out at 800' in the dead of night with 100 lbs of chute and equipment.. you haven't jumped. AIRBORNE !

[WeakMindedFool 0]

I'll do a tandem with you...hell I'd practice jujitsu with you. I wouldn't have sex with you or share a needle with you. If I was working on you after you tatered in, I'd wear gloves...maybe goggles, but maybe not. In my world every single one of you is HIV+, Hep B through H positive, have TB and are off your anti-psychotic meds with a hidden loaded gun in your pocket. Contracting HIV from wound to wound transmission is hard...really, really hard. Medical professionals assume everyone is crazy and infectious, this is how you protect yourself. If someone at your DZ is injured and you are not using body isolation precautions (glove,goggles) you are being as foolish as if you were having unprotected sex. Your threat to a student is not zero...but it's close. In fact the threat to you is much higher then the threat to them as you are immunosuppressed and they aren't!
Lastly peoples perceptions are worthless, everyone in the world who doesn't skydive thinks we're crazy anyways, we're not. People will be afraid of catching HIV from you, they won't. Get the facts from YOUR doctor and make your decisions accordingly.
Peace

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Word!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[billbooth 10]

Before you panic, go to www.virusmyth.com. What you find will probably make you mad, but it will also make you feel a lot better.

[rhino 0]

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What I think it comes down to, is that there are very few jobs in this world where there is an obligation to inform anyone of HIV status.

We aren't fellow co-workers. We are part of the skydiving family. Friends.. It has nothing to do with OBLIGATION. It's about doing the right thing. Doing what you want others to do for you. He has done that and I respect him for it.

I believe COWARDS hide things from their friends stating "It's my right to privacy". He has not done the cowardly thing. He has acted with Integrity and Honor. I for one appreciate that.

Students or passengers that he is doing tandems with DO HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW. When someone that is HIV+ has sex with someone without telling them that they were HIV+ they can be charged criminally. Yes, that's right CRIMINALLY. I see this to be no different.

HE should protect himself and his passengers in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY EVENT that blood would be transferred during an accident. Better that then to know you were responsible for giving someone else HIV.

Better that then getting charged criminally.

Better safe than sorry. Kind of like second hand smoke. At least give them the choice as to whether or not they want to be exposed to the smoke.

Rhino

[skychic79 0]

HELLO! HIV can only be transmitted by fluid exchange and can not exist outside the body. Come on all this is taugh way back when i was in school.

Don't be afraid of what you don't know.

I say telling the primiarly staff at the dz is ok but prepare to educate them on the disease. I was do a tandem with you. But remember to take care of yourself first, as you should everyday. If you don't feel up to it, skip the tandems that day/week/ or whatever.

I also agree with the AFF instructor idea or even coaching. Come to Florida and i will jump with you.




Face your fears!

[nbblood 0]

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I'm really worried about what my friends here will say.

Sounds to me like you'll find out who your true friends are. I hope it works out for you.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

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I believe COWARDS hide things from their friends stating "It's my right to privacy". He has not done the cowardly thing. He has acted with Integrity and Honor. I for one appreciate that.

You can look at the posts in this thread and can see what a little lack of knowledge does to people's perceptions. People act funny when they're afraid, they attack what they fear. You have a bunch of people in this FAMILY giving bad advice about subjects they are not informed about. There was a time not 15 or 20 years ago people who should have known better were calling AIDS the "Gay Plague" despite the fact that it amplified in three places on the planet simultaneously in three very different demographics (only the SF amplification was homosexual).

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Students or passengers that he is doing tandems with DO HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW.

You may think so morally, but legally the opposite is true.

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When someone that is HIV+ has sex with someone without telling them that they were HIV+ they can be charged criminally. Yes, that's right CRIMINALLY. I see this to be no different.

Sex, tandem no different? Shit, I got cheated on my tandem!!!!


edited cause I'm learnin to use those 'mark up's'

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[Liemberg 0]

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Students or passengers that he is doing tandems with DO HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW.

No they don't.

I'm 99.9% certain that at least one (and maybe more) of my tandempassengers was HIV+ or had aids, at the time they showed up. Yet no one ever told me he was.
In one particular case (one not so healthy looking young man, clearly homosexual, making a tandemjump with me while his friend paid for the ride) I was almost certain, had a strong feeling about it - like you have when you go up with on one of those 'things to do before I die' passengers - but I didn't feel it was my place to ask.
Since I was pretty sure I could avoid "mixing body fluids" with my passenger and I was curious whether he or his friend would speak to me about it I waited and gave them the initiative. (Would have taken him anyway...)

They didn't speak to me about it and I didn't mind.

As I said, it wasn't my place to ask.

There must have been others.

(To the tandemmasters in this forum: Did you ever have an HIV+ passenger come up and ask if his medical condition would be a problem for you?)

If an HIV+ passenger would not inform the tandemmaster, why should the HIV+ tandemmaster inform the passengers? For some of us it is livelihood and if it is ok to remain working in the ER it certainly is ok to remain working at the DZ.

Other than that, in general it is a smart plan to keep the DZ's medical kit up to modern standards.(Gloves etc.)

AND "deadboy2004" is under no obligation to tell the DZO. It would be prudent however to be a bit more 'reserved' in his contacts with the passengers than your average TM is.

Which could turn out quite refreshing, IMHO...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[eeneR 1]

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AND "deadboy2004" is under no obligation to tell the DZO. It would be prudent however to be a bit more 'reserved' in his contacts with the passengers than your average TM is.

Let me ask this as I am not sure how the 3rd class medical works...but wouldnt that have to be disclosed for that? What are the health requirements? just a thought....that is something between he and his doc....

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto