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flyuphi99

cutaway charges for rented gear

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Unless responsibility for damage was stipulated in the rental agreement I wouldn't pay a dime.



Anybody here ever, ever see a written rental agreement to use a DZ rig for a jump?

I need a rig, can you rent me one for a jump? Sure, grab this one and I'll tell manifest to add the cost to your account - it's $25. Ok, thanks



I SEE one everytime I go to the DZ, the question is do I read it. :)


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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The only pack job that you get a money back guarantee on should be the reserve. If it doesn't open you shouldn't have to buy that bottle of whisky.



If the reserve doens't open I can promise you I am not buying a bottle of anything for anybody. :)


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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I happened to be at the drop zone on the day this particular incident occured and on the same load! It started with this B licenced individual not useing her own brand new gear because there was not an available packer to pack it for her!



This is typical of today's 'Gas-n-Go' jumpers.

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The individual did not stick to the jump plan of pulling at the altitude she was going to pull at but rather 500 ft lower (she thinks) indicateing she did loose altitude awareness and seemed fixated on the ground.



This jumper is not the first, nor the last jumper, to loose altitude awareness. The fact is that the jumper DID execute proper emergency procedures by an appropriate altitude. The jumper landed safely. This jumper lived because their actions made it possible. Please do not diminish or undermine this fact. This jumper needs to know that their actions in dealing with the emergency situation were acceptable.

This jumper was pro-active in the face of uncertainty. This jumper corrected their course (saw the ground & became altitude aware). This jumper had the self-confidence in emergency procedures.

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The inability of this person to properly access what happend both for this incident and any future incidents is an indication that it may be in her best interest not to participate in this sport.



This is BS. No one, absolutely no one of any experience level, has to come down from a malfunction and write a novella about how the main was this way or that way. They do not need to know this line was trapped over this part of the canopy-blah-blah-blah. All they need to know in that it was not working.

When in doubt - whip it out!
[Is that old school, nowadays?]

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Lastly the indivual did not offer to go look for - or even to HELP find the lost equipment as she did not have time to do so both before and after the price of the equiptment was given to her.



This may be because the difference in equipment rental to students and experienced jumpers was not carefully and completely explained to the jumper. It could also be because the jumper is a dick. I do not know.

There is a double standard in renting equipment to students and experienced jumpers.

Students are in training and experiencing new environments that can become highly stressful. One of the tenets of student training is to assure students that 'do not worry about the equipment if or when you have an emergency'. This changes once people become experienced (aka have a license). We say 'do not sacrifice yourself for a $50 repack, but you will be responsible for that fee.' etc for the rest of the equipment.

Apparently, this is where the 'problem' lies.

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I don't think this was a customer service issue at all on the DZ's part but rather a complete lack of respect and understanding of the incident as a whole on the part of the individual. No thanks to her, the main was found by the staff of the DZ the very next morning.



This was not an incident. The DZ might not have explained the terms and conditions of equipment rental to the jumper. The jumper might have had something more important to do.

It appears to be a moot point about the main, since it has been recovered. The DZ might want to make sure others that rent their equipment understand the differences that go along with being an experienced jumper vs when they were a student.

To any student jumpers that read this:
DZS want you to execute proper emergency procedures, if or when the need arises. The vast majority will not charge you or even expect you to recover equipment, while you are on student status.

Once off student status, this changes. This varies from DZ to DZ, so you will have to check locally to determine what is expected of you.

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A reserve is normal use of gear.



I wanted this to be re-read.

.
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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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You say the gear is used? So what. The replacement cost is still the same. If you lost your own gear, no manufacturer would say, "oh, that's too bad, but since it was old, we'll replace it at a lower cost."



As a business the DZO is depreciating the value of the assets over no more than five years on canopies. The user should not have to pay more than the remaining value of the lost gear.

IMNSHO the problem here is a rude jumper who, apparently, refused to even look for the gear. I've only got 37 jumps but become more aware of what is going on around me in the air every jump. I would think that at 100+ jumps I would have some idea of where my main landed but I haven't been there so maybe just wishful thinking.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Anybody here ever, ever see a written rental agreement to use a DZ rig for a jump?



Yes - at Square1



And very soon a similar written rental agreement will be in use at The Drop Shop for every piece of rental or demo equipment we own. Especially after having someone use our wingsuit demo recently and return it with a rip that they didn't tell us about and the employee didn't catch before the jumper left the dz.... and most especially after reading many of the replies in this thread.

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Grow up people. If you can't accept responsibility for 100% of your skydive - from the aircraft to the gear you jump to the actions or inactions of others - you need to take up bowling and leave the dropzone for those of us who accept the fact that shit happens.



So we should all get our riggers ticket and pack our own reserves too?

I can't afford my own gear yet so I rent. I get there early and get the same rig everytime but the first jump of the day is always on someone elses pack. I know that things can go wrong, one to many beers before reattaching the main, but I take the chance.

Even if you own you gear and don't have the training to pack a reserve you are still depending on someone else. You are not responsible for the reserve pack unless you intentionally let someone unqualified pack your reserve and fake the credentials.

Packing my reserve and packing my wheel bearings are the same thing. I can't do it so I trust the person who did. Yes "shit happens" but it better be pretty damn clear it was not a packing mistake like the slider full up or lines wrapped around the canopy.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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...
An experienced jumper should be heads up enough to look out for the main / freebag, should help search for the missing gear, and should pay for any gear that is not found - same as they would if it were their own rig they were jumping!



I don't disagree but define experienced? There are those here who seem to think anyone with less than 300, or more, are not "experienced". Clearly at 37 I am not but where do you draw the line?


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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...
Over 100 jumps means the jumper must have a license. Don't you have to learn to pack to get your license????? How the hell can you NOT know how to pack with that many jumps????



Because they never packed again after the packing class.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Even if you own you gear and don't have the training to pack a reserve you are still depending on someone else. You are not responsible for the reserve pack unless you intentionally let someone unqualified pack your reserve and fake the credentials.



I disagree. Ya pays your money, ya takes your chances. Riggers are human and can screw up; a piece of paper from the FAA doesn't change that. When I hand a rigger money and they hand me my rig back that reserve pack job becomes my responsibility. If I die because they screwed up, well maybe I should have used a different rigger or done it myself.

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Packing my reserve and packing my wheel bearings are the same thing. I can't do it so I trust the person who did. Yes "shit happens" but it better be pretty damn clear it was not a packing mistake like the slider full up or lines wrapped around the canopy.



We aren't discussing cars. We're discussing parachutes. You may have to drive but you don't have to skydive. Every time I make the choice to throw my body at the ground at 120 mph+ I take 100% responsibility for anything that happens - whether it's technically my fault, someone elses "fault, within my control or not within my control. Because I made the choice to jump out of an airplane for fun anything bad that happens to me or my gear on that skydive is my fault.

If I couldn't or wouldn't accept those risks, I wouldn't jump. Period. This ain't Disneyland folks.

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this thread is already outa control. My response is
>>> I rented this rig.. If I lose it you eat it.. thats
why you take the risk of rental and why I pay $15
per jump. If you want me to pay for an unfound main, get on line brother.



If I loose it, you eat it? Charming. Please warn me if you are ever heading west.

$15.00 per jump is cheap. That covers wear and tear and upkeep. If you want us to cover insurance for lost gear, then expect to pay $50 per jump. Or if you can find that type of insurance for me, then shoot me a PM.

Honestly, who are these kids? Take some responsability for your own actions. I hear less whining from my three year old!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

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Yes "shit happens" but it better be pretty damn clear it was not a packing mistake like the slider full up or lines wrapped around the canopy.



Umm.... I really think that you'd want it packed with the slider up.... but by all means try it both ways and see which works better! :P

To answer your question (serious now!) I personally would define anyone experienced enough to check where the chopped main was going, help look for it, and basically take responsibility as anyone licenced. So anyone with 25-50 jumps should be getting to that point... and yeah, there are a lot of what ifs, and cases of people with hundreds of jumps and no licence, but I think basically after 25-50 jumps you should have been around enough to know that you might want to get that back! Do you think at 37 jumps if you had a mal you would help find the main and maybe if you had time under the reserve, take a look at where it (the main) was going towards?

I think anyone who has their own gear and is renting for some reason should treat it like it was theirs, and replace anything they lose. And IMHO I think people with their own gear should know how to pack it... but thats just my opinion. :)

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No thanks to her, the main was found by the staff of the DZ the very next morning.



Outta curiousity, found in what condition baglocked? damaged? tangled? could the malfunction be figured out?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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I never meet anyone like you that needs to borrow my rig!!! I almost never say no when someone needs to borrow my rig. I do however let them know "you lose it or break it....you buy it"!!!
Why should it be any different for the owner of the gear if it just so happens to be the DZO???? huh...huh....tell me that!!!!



Not that I'm totally on one side or another but as people have pointed out "we treat the dropzone like famliy until money is involved" and that is true as they do to us. if I can't afford the jumpticket for jump 3 that day they aren't gonna say "nah your my pal/family hop on" The dropzone isn't just gonna let me borrow their gear the way I might loan my rig to a friend, part of requireing money makes it very different from borrowing from a friend. If I loaned my rig to a friend and he got it cut up or lost I'd be far more inclined to expect him to cover those costs then if I had charged him 20-50 bucks. like wise I'd be more inclined to feel bad and pay for the repack on my friends gear that he loaned me for free then one I paid $50 bucks to use (that said contract or no I'd look for the gear) I'm also of the opinion that if the contract says I have to pay for an entire new set of gear if I loose the cutaway handle, if I agreed to that contract then I'm on the line for a whole set of new gear.
My opinion: Charge less money on rental and have it understood that if you cutaway you have to pay for the repack, or charge more and cover the occosional repack. If your in it for the money I have less sympathy for you. If you were just covering costs to make gear available I'd bleed to cover any damages/loss. If your making money hand over fist charging a fortune I'd laugh if you failed to put it in the contract ... obviously the truth is in the middle somewhere so my sympathy is somewhere in the middle.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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The jumper is 100% responsible for the replacement of any lost component. Hell the jumper is responsible for any damage that may occur while using the equipment.

We are all adults. Adults make mistakes. Adults take responsibility for those mistakes.

I do feel the jumper should have the option to pay for the exact replacement parts from either the DZ, directly from the manufacturer(s), or another dealer.

Students are exempt. DZ's understand and must build into the cost of student jumps the maintenance of the student equipment. But once a jumper is cleared to solo, it is the jumpers responsibility.

Where do you people get the hair brain notion that DZ, Gear Dealers, and Gear manufacturers make all of this excessive money!!!!>:( Skydiving is expensive but not very profitable sport.

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How can you say she did she not volunteer to help look for the gear? She said she had to work Monday and Tuesday, that she could get there Wednesday, and, not knowing the protocol in the situation, questioned how she could find the gear out in the middle of the woods when told she would need to walk through the woods looking. She called the DZ the next morning to let them know she could be there and was arranging to get off early Monday afternoon. They told her no one was available to help her look. She called 2 hours later and was told the gear had been spotted in the trees, and would cost $300. to retrieve.
The rest of your post is equally inaccurate. You weren't present the entire time the story was recounted, so you should reserve your comments for what is correct, not what is hearsay. This jumper waved off at 4200, had a hard pull, levered it out with her elbow, waited, looked up and saw nothing,waited 3 more counts, then went to handles and chopped because she was in the vicinity of high tension powerlines and was continuing to freefall. You were in the room when she said she looked up and saw nothing. So why are you accusing her of not looking up? Also, when that canopy isn't out at all, and you're still in freefall after 6 seconds, you don't recheck your altimeter, you get on your handles. No panic, smooth cutaway. Saw the reserve freebag falling, but not the main, but didn't search further because she needed to find a safe landing area away from the woods. LACK OF AWARENESS? I think not. Patterned into a nearby field and started walking back because it was already getting dark. That's the story and it wasn't "changed six times".
How do I know? I'm the jumper, and this was posted as a rhetorical question,since the gear had been found already. As`for packing, I just got my own rig and wanted to retrain on packing after the long winter layoff, so had requested packing lessons at the DZ now that I had a rig. Sorry, but you're making me out to be a jumper of little conscience. I spent several hours reviewing training and safety before returning for the new season, and I do care about the equiptment I rent. Since I paid the DZ for over a hundred jumps on their rental gear before getting my own, it would have been far more fair to cut some slack on the replacement cost. A retail cost invoice was shoved at me and I was even told to leave my new rig as security!
That said, I feel as though an apparent misunderstanding regarding searching dense woods for missing gear, on my own, on the following day has been blown up out of all proportion . Further, I feel that in my absence accusations have been made that could not be defended. All in all, the cutaway was the most pleasant of my experiences at this DZ that evening. People I thought were friends have let me down. Customer service is an issue in this case, yes, but the lack of support for a regular and conscientious jumper with a first-time cutaway is the real issue.

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So we should all get our riggers ticket and pack our own reserves too?



Completely different topic. Reserves are packed by Certitfied riggers. They are held accountable if they fuck up the pack job. Ask a rigger if they worry about someone going in on one of there pack jobs. They are very concerned in most cases about it. They don't want you to die and they make damn sure they pack them right. I know riggers make mistakes. They are human. But for the most part they are responsible and take care of us. THanks to riggers!

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I can't afford my own gear yet so I rent. I get there early and get the same rig everytime but the first jump of the day is always on someone elses pack. I know that things can go wrong, one to many beers before reattaching the main, but I take the chance.



Don't take the chance. Pack it yourself. If you don't know how, then LEARN! It pisses me off when I see a jumper that can't pack.
I will say that I think it is not very smart for a gear store to give out a packed rig for rent if the people that are packing it are customers. The guy may have been form another state and left and is never coming back. Maybe he didn't think it important enough to unstow the slider or stow the brakes.

At Square1 we rent it out unconnected. You have to hook it up and pack it up. This means everything, including the D-bag and Pilot Chute. You hand it to some people and they look at you like they never saw a parachute that wasn't hooked up. These are people with sometimes hundreds of jumps. Good God people get a clue! Learn about your gear. Be a big boy (or girl). You learned how to tie your shoes didn't you folks? Learn how to hook up and pack a rig. Do it for yourself for awhile. Hell you will even be able to jump more,, because you are saving money.
Dom


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How can you say she did she not volunteer to help look for the gear? She said she had to work Monday and Tuesday, that she could get there Wednesday,



By Wed. the main would have more then likely trashed. If winds started blowing or maybe it is in a tree and an animal decides to eat it? That does happen. Buddy of mine had his main land in a horse paddock. The horse ate a bunch of it before they got there and took it away.

I have walked in the woods until after midnight looking for a cutaway main. I have chopped down BIG trees to get a main out of it!

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Since I paid the DZ for over a hundred jumps on their rental gear before getting my own, it would have been far more fair to cut some slack on the replacement cost



Business isn't always fair. They didn't make you jump or rent gear from them. They had what you wanted and you willingly went to them to use it. I think you are looking a gift horse in the mouth. Do you realize how much of a luxury it is to have gear store that even has gear for you to rent? Most Dz's don't even have a gear store let alone rental Gear. Most have something for new jumpers to rent but it ragged out student gear. They live off of that student gear. Sounds like you knew the gear store very well. I bet it wasn't a surprise when they said you had to replace anything you lost. Sounds a bit like maybe you thought they would forget about it or cut you some slack because you had been a customer before. Sounds like they are trying to run there business and stay open.
Dom


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How can you say she did she not volunteer to help look for the gear? She said she had to work Monday and Tuesday, that she could get there Wednesday, and, not knowing the protocol in the situation, questioned how she could find the gear out in the middle of the woods when told she would need to walk through the woods looking. ...


After reading your post I stand by what I said even more. It is truly sad that you feel that the people who were talking to you about your incident (who have an aggregate of over 20,000 skydives) were trying to do anything but help. It is equally disturbing that you still do not understand that you changed your story numerous times and still have no clue what actually happened to you. Again, maybe skydiving is just not for you.

Moreover, your attitude that evening was abhorrent. You never once thanked a single person for either trying to find you or for looking for your gear. You never said you were going to help look for your gear. In fact, you said that you expected the staff to find it for you. Indeed, the only reason the DZ gave you an invoice was because you showed not one ounce of caring for the gear you rented and subsequently lost.

Also, if you continue to skydive, I recommend that you speak with an instructor to review the procedures for clearing a pilot chute in your burble because clearly you did not have a grasp of what to do.

As I said in my previous post, I am happy that you executed your emergency procedures and walked away from the incident unharmed.

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Also, if you continue to skydive, I recommend that you speak with an instructor to review the procedures for clearing a pilot chute in your burble because clearly you did not have a grasp of what to do.



How exactly do you know this incident was caused by the PC being in the burble?

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Sorry, but you're very wrong and I stand by my last post. Although this does not relate to the original post, I feel forced to respond to your very offensive attitude. Yes, I know very well how to clear a pilot chute from the burble, having reviewed malfunctions the previous day. A cutaway was made regardless of cause, but the power lines were more of a concern at the time than discerning exactly why I still had no canopy overhead when I looked up.
I may have still been a bit shook up, but of course I was very grateful for everyone's help! I thanked the person nice enough to pick me up, and another jumper who'd come out, but, sorry, when I got back, all I got were a lot of questions from a lot of people at the same time, so forgive me if I forgot any extra thankyous. My attitude was nothing as you describe it. I know exactly what I said about looking for gear, so please don't accuse me of not caring. To ask if it was not part of the DZ's routine to search for the rig seems reasonable. I had never cut away before, and I had always seen the staff driving out to rescue other jumpers' cutaways. Now I was being told I had to come back in the morning and search for it myself. Sorry, but that just didn't sound right, after what I'd seen at the DZ in the past. So forgive my naivete', but I just didn't know the protocol, and again, I wouldn't have known where or how to begin. The woods are extensive, and I have no idea how to search for something as small as a D-baq. The invoice was very quickly drawn up, and again, there was no inference of any negotiability. I cannot imagine why you are so willing to see things from only one perspective. I have not been around DZ's long enough to understand all the protocols which exist for incidents such as this one. Let's try being a little more open-minded. I do appreciate your comments. I don't appreciate your attitude.

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