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Kalrigan

Am I downsizing too fast?

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Hi guys,
I have a quick question about downsizing since I will be looking into buyin my first own rig this winter. Here is the story:

First things first: I'm 5'10-5'11, and I weigh 150-155 pounds, depending on the day. My exist weight is 170-175.
During PFF (it's basically AFF but Canadian), I was using a 250. Now I'm sitting at 36, and I jump a Pilot 170 (rental). I've had solid stand up landings on every single one, accurate within 5-20 meters almost every time, *knock on wood* Everytime I have downsized I have taken the time to open high and experiment with the canopies so I feel comfortable with them.

I feel comfortable on the 170, I will still be jumping it for the remaining of this season but my question lies about the off season when I will be looking into buying my own rig. What am I better off doing? Looking into a container that can hold a 150-170 with a 170 canopy to stay on for now, and if I were to downsize later I could keep my container and simply change canopies? Or shall I grab a 150 and should be ready for it once this season is over, or even if I had to do a few more jumps on the 170 at the beginning of next season before starting to use my own.

I've been on the classifieds here almost every day for the past month and a half and it's been hard finding something that would work perfectly for me, so I've been weighing my options.

Edit: I know downsizing too fast is dangerous and can break you, which is why I'm asking you guys if this sounds reasonable for someone my size. I will speak to my instructors and people who taught me, but that will have to wait for when I get to go to my DZ again. Just bored at work, looking at the classifieds.

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Well the best answer is learn to fly the he'll out of the canopy you have now before downsizing but you are most likely gonna do what you want anyway. Id print out the canopy survival skills and the downsizing checklist if you are thinking about downsizing and go over them. Also none here has seen you fly your canopy. Talk to you instructors if they think you'll be ok. But I wouldn't put stand up landings as a sign to go smaller. You could probably figure out how to stand up a velo 96 in about 5 jumps, it doesn't mean you'll be ok in an oh ship situation.

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I feel comfortable on the 170



...and there's your answer. Don't blow money on a smaller canopy right before the end of the season. The last thing you want to do is jump a new small-for-you canopy after a layoff.

You can generally fit 3 sizes or so worth of canopies in a single container, even more so now with the new low-bulk canopies. I've had everything from a 189 to a 150 in my old rig, just make sure the closing loop is sized right and if you have concerns ask your rigger to take a look at it.

Buy a rig that fits the main and reserve combo you are proficient in. You can always put smaller mains in there later... generally you really never need to swap out reserves unless you are making a major downsize (which is not going to be for a while hopefully).

There's certainly no rule that says you have to jump the smallest canopy possible at all times.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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If there is any doubt in your mind "ie. you had to ask the question in the first place" then yes, you are downsizing too fast.

I'll say this for anyone who cares to listens benefit. If you have less than several hundred jumps and you aren't trying to swoop and you aren't having problems penetrating light to moderate wind then there is no reason to downsize.

If you have several hundred jumps, hopefully you're to the point where DZ.com is the last place you'll look for this kind of advice.

If you're trying to swoop, Godspeed and good luck. Be sure you have all your affairs in order. [:/]

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ridebmxbikes

Well the best answer is learn to fly the he'll out of the canopy you have now before downsizing but you are most likely gonna do what you want anyway. Id print out the canopy survival skills and the downsizing checklist if you are thinking about downsizing and go over them. Also none here has seen you fly your canopy. Talk to you instructors if they think you'll be ok. But I wouldn't put stand up landings as a sign to go smaller. You could probably figure out how to stand up a velo 96 in about 5 jumps, it doesn't mean you'll be ok in an oh ship situation.



Good point, I'll see what my instructors say when I'm up tere agai and see what they say.

I have no problem sticking with a 170, rental or mine doesn't matter, I'm really in no rush to downsize. I was just wondering about how y investment into a rig should plan out.

Thanks for your input.

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Something to consider is that at the beginning of the next season you'll be rusty from the winter; the 170 will be a better choice for then regardless.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Matt and Anachronist thanks for replies.

I am definitely not trying to swoop, not soon, and hopefully not ever. My main concern is flying something comfortable and safe for me and getting a rig that could last me at least a couple of hundreds jumps. My skydive ends once I throw the pilot chute. After that it's find home, land safe, pack and go up again. A few spirals and what not but nothing too dangerous and nothing too low.

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wmw999

Something to consider is that at the beginning of the next season you'll be rusty from the winter; the 170 will be a better choice for then regardless.

Wendy P.



Makes sense definitely. I think I'll do that, and jump a 170 for at least 100 more jumps.

Glider thanks for the links, I'll print them right now.

Edit: So I just read Brian's checklist and decided to stay on and buy a 170. Haven't had the chance to read the other one, still at work, but I'm gonna start working on what Brian said in his.

Thanks again guys, this was a big eye opener.

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I weigh 150-155 pounds, depending on the day. My exist weight is 170-175.



Your equipment very likely weighs more than you're estimating. It won't make a huge difference, but you might as well get it right.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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sundevil777

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I weigh 150-155 pounds, depending on the day. My exist weight is 170-175.



Your equipment very likely weighs more than you're estimating. It won't make a huge difference, but you might as well get it right.



20 pounds was always the rough estimate I was told to use for the equipment. I should weigh myself one day with all my stuff on just to be exactly sure.

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Kalrigan

***

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I weigh 150-155 pounds, depending on the day. My exist weight is 170-175.



Your equipment very likely weighs more than you're estimating. It won't make a huge difference, but you might as well get it right.



20 pounds was always the rough estimate I was told to use for the equipment. I should weigh myself one day with all my stuff on just to be exactly sure.

My rig alone is 10kg. That's for an Infinity I66N, Fusion 190, Smart 220. Granted I'm a bigger guy and thus use a bigger rig, but that's before jumpsuit, helmet, altimeter, etc.
cavete terrae.

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The differences in canopy performance / reaction isn't linear, and the change from 170 to 150 is where is starts to be *a lot* different than going from a 210 to a 190 or a 190 to a 170.

PD recommends a max exit weight of 165 lbs for an advanced pilot and 195 lbs for an expert pilot on the Sabre2 150. That's about the same with any other manufacture on a similar canopy. At fewer than 40 jumps, you aren't advanced or expert.

Think about a 150 when you have a couple of hundred jumps minimum.

ETA: What canopy you can fly well and safely isn't so much about standing up landings accurately under ideal conditions. It's hell of a lot more about being able to handle the problems that *will* happen. Fly a canopy that you can maneuver safely under bad conditions.

Have you ever made a low flat turn to avoid an obstacle? If no, then fly the 170 until you do. Get an idea how it handles when you're stressed. Then demo a 150 and try the same thing up high. Did the 150 react so much more sharply that it would have hurt you? If yes, practice finessing that response on the 170 until you're ready.

Can you downwind your 170 into a tight spot and land well? Landing well not meaning standing up as much as it means not making a Kalrigan sized hole in the side of a barn?

Don't downsize because you can land what you have when everything is perfect. Downsize (and you don't ever have to) because you've got every bit of experience possible out of what you have now.
Owned by Remi #?

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Kalrigan

Matt and Anachronist thanks for replies.

I am definitely not trying to swoop, not soon, and hopefully not ever. My main concern is flying something comfortable and safe for me and getting a rig that could last me at least a couple of hundreds jumps. My skydive ends once I throw the pilot chute. After that it's find home, land safe, pack and go up again. A few spirals and what not but nothing too dangerous and nothing too low.



I like your style.

A lot of jumpers feel the need to get under really sporty wings as soon as they can without considering the whole picture.

I'm a big fan of learning to command the canopy completely before moving on, regardless of whether it's a downsize, a change to elliptical canopies, or anything else. That's how the old-timers did it in the days when manufacturers were increasing performance yet there was no real education or training in canopy work. It was the only safe way then and the statistics continue to bear that out today.

You may decide to downsize later or you may not. There's a lot to be said for enjoying the canopy ride and not looking at increasing canopy performance as a challenge that must be conquered. In fact, some of us are actually going the other way. I just up-sized by 35% after 28 years in the sport and 14 years of flying hot rods. Your wing is YOUR choice and you should fly what you are comfortable with regardless of the trend of the day. Your job is to go home safe at the end of the day and your choices have more to do with accomplishing that than anything else in the sport.

One thing is for sure. No one has ever been hurt or killed because they didn't downsize. Let that be your guide and you will contribute greatly to your longevity in the sport.

Welcome to the rest of your life. We're glad you joined us and we hope you'll stick around for a long, long time.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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NeonLights

rule of thumb for canopy size is 1/2 the sqft of your body weight, and the more cross braces the better. Most of the replies you will get on this website are sarcastic and stupid. Stick to the basics, a Crossfire is a good 1st canopy.



Dood, give the kid a break. He's trying to learn. Leave this sort of shit for SoFPiDaRF.

Kalrigan, ignore the idiots. They're all over dz.com.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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labrys

The differences in canopy performance / reaction isn't linear, and the change from 170 to 150 is where is starts to be *a lot* different than going from a 210 to a 190 or a 190 to a 170.

PD recommends a max exit weight of 165 lbs for an advanced pilot and 195 lbs for an expert pilot on the Sabre2 150. That's about the same with any other manufacture on a similar canopy. At fewer than 40 jumps, you aren't advanced or expert.

Think about a 150 when you have a couple of hundred jumps minimum.

ETA: What canopy you can fly well and safely isn't so much about standing up landings accurately under ideal conditions. It's hell of a lot more about being able to handle the problems that *will* happen. Fly a canopy that you can maneuver safely under bad conditions.

Have you ever made a low flat turn to avoid an obstacle? If no, then fly the 170 until you do. Get an idea how it handles when you're stressed. Then demo a 150 and try the same thing up high. Did the 150 react so much more sharply that it would have hurt you? If yes, practice finessing that response on the 170 until you're ready.

Can you downwind your 170 into a tight spot and land well? Landing well not meaning standing up as much as it means not making a Kalrigan sized hole in the side of a barn?

Don't downsize because you can land what you have when everything is perfect. Downsize (and you don't ever have to) because you've got every bit of experience possible out of what you have now.



That's some great info, I appreciate your honest reply. I will take every bit of this into consideration and I will be sticking with the 170.

dirtbox

yeh your instructors are a good starting point, one of them even has a broken leg and plenty of time to discuss such things ;)B|



I miss you Ozzie, get better dude. :(
Since you're grounded now, wanna help me find a nice 170? Haha.

chuckakers



I like your style.

A lot of jumpers feel the need to get under really sporty wings as soon as they can without considering the whole picture.

I'm a big fan of learning to command the canopy completely before moving on, regardless of whether it's a downsize, a change to elliptical canopies, or anything else. That's how the old-timers did it in the days when manufacturers were increasing performance yet there was no real education or training in canopy work. It was the only safe way then and the statistics continue to bear that out today.

You may decide to downsize later or you may not. There's a lot to be said for enjoying the canopy ride and not looking at increasing canopy performance as a challenge that must be conquered. In fact, some of us are actually going the other way. I just up-sized by 35% after 28 years in the sport and 14 years of flying hot rods. Your wing is YOUR choice and you should fly what you are comfortable with regardless of the trend of the day. Your job is to go home safe at the end of the day and your choices have more to do with accomplishing that than anything else in the sport.

One thing is for sure. No one has ever been hurt or killed because they didn't downsize. Let that be your guide and you will contribute greatly to your longevity in the sport.

Welcome to the rest of your life. We're glad you joined us and we hope you'll stick around for a long, long time.



Thank you chuckakers, I appreciate your feedback big time and I will take it close to heart. Don't worry, people like NeonLights seem like they have nothing better to do, I'm not too concerned about what they say.

Well, time to find a rig with a 170.
Thank you all, I appreciate all of your replies, information, sharing your experience, links etc... I'll still be speaking to my instructors, they've seen me fly my canopies while most of you haven't. :P
Not going smaller than 170 though, if anything, might consider going back up to 190. We'll see.

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Irrespective of your skill level, always ask yourself "why do I want to downsize?" Seriously. Write it down, and be honest with your answers.

If you're mostly driven by looks, size of the container/rig or peer-pressure, these are NOT good reasons to downsize.

If you've found an amazing deal, this is not a good reason.

If you are thinking many, many jumps ahead, this is not a good reason.

This is your first rig. You are still learning. Why on earth would you get anything but something you are comfortable with *now*? Build your skills on that, and see about downsizing once you actually can fly the shit out of your first canopy. I still have the first canopy I bought, but only because I was lucky not to kill myself on the first 100 jumps I did with it. I learned to fly what I have because I was worried I'd die... I should simply have gotten a bigger canopy. If I had, I'm not even sure I would have downsized to what I currently have!!

Same with my bike... I have a little bike. Every time I ask myself whether I should go bigger, I remember what I use the bike for (commuting to work on little, traffic-jammed roads), and that a bigger bike would actually be more of a hassle in my case. The day I want to use it more on highways, then I will have a good reason for getting the bigger bike. At this stage, your canopy's purpose is to get you safely to the ground. Consider downsizing ONLY when you have mastered this, and you want to progress to something else, where a smaller canopy would be more suitable. Remember... If the canopy is fit-for-purpose, you will learn BETTER, and you are more likely to enjoy this sport for years to come. If it is NOT suitable, at best you can struggle to learn to fly, at worst you could die. Not trying to be over-dramatic, but it's a reality that should not be ignored.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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sundevil777

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I weigh 150-155 pounds, depending on the day. My exist weight is 170-175.



Your equipment very likely weighs more than you're estimating. It won't make a huge difference, but you might as well get it right.


Agreed. Clothes, shoes, rig, helmet, etc... probably closer to 30lbs than 20lbs.

And yeah, staying on the 170 is the right idea. I'm only 5-10 lbs heavier than you and I stayed on a 170 until I had 500 jumps. To this day, the scariest landing I've ever had was a downwind crash landing into a tiny back yard, on my 170 when I had about 150 jumps. There were of course about a million things I did wrong in that scenario, but the one thing I did right was decide long before that stupid jump to keep a 170 over my head for the time being, which made my stupid crash landing survivable. :)
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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To answer your question, no, you are not downsizing too fast. Yet.

The 'rule of thumb' is that a 1 to 1 WL is the place to start for a first rig. Given your weight, you're pretty darn close to that right now. The fact that you went from a 250 down to a 170 over the course of 30 jumps is due to the 'huge student canopy' factor. You intentionally start off with a canopy that's waaaay too big for you as a student as a matter of safety. Once you make a couple jumps, and show that you can successfully fly and steer the huge canopy, you'll be stepped down toward that 1 to1 WL (in most cases) as you work your way toward your A license.

So for now you're more or less on track. However, expect your downsizing to slow down considerably at this point. You want to do a minimum of 100 jumps on your current canopy, and many people have gone as far as 500 jumps at 1 to 1 (and some never downsize past that at all).

Do yourself a favor and buy used gear. You're an 'average' sized guy looking for average sized gear, and you shouldn't have any problem finding something that will work for you. Buying used will free up more cash for jumps, and it will also make changing gear an almost free situation.

You can buy used gear, put 100-200 jumps on it. and sell it for just about what you paid. If you shop smart and find good deals, you can switch rigs and canopies with very little money out of pocket. Forget about 'how long' a rig will last, but something that will comfortably hold the canopies you can safely jump today, and get to stacking up some jump numbers.

When you're ready to downsize, somewhere down the road, worry about it then. Sell what you have and buy some more used stuff for about the same money. Stick with the plan of spending as much money of jumps as possible.

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One option you have is to buy a rig that will hold a 150 main.

Put a Pulse 170 in it. Because the Pulse has a low bulk bottom skin it packs the size of a normal ZP 150 and also makes it a lot easier to pack (something newer jumpers appreciate).

Jump the hell out of the Pulse - minimum 200 jumps.

Go to a canopy course. Then do the drills from the course as often as possible (some can even be done on regular group jumps) Simply attending a course does not make you a better pilot - it only gives you the tools to become a better pilot. Do the drills.

After you think your getting all the performance out of the Pulse demo a few 150s.

After every off field landing ask yourself this: " Do I wish I had a smaller faster canopy during that landing?"

Be smart and learn under a canopy that can forgive a few mistakes. I promise - "you will make them".


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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So went up today, for more 170 practice, it was a bit sketchy wind wise today, I tried some good stuff following Brian Germain's checklist. Definitely sticking to the 170, like 100%, for at least 200 jumps.

Gonna start looking at 170s for sale, or piece a rig together, we'll see how it goes.

Thanks friends, blue skies. It was very informative and eye opening reading your replies.

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