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Jumpalot

Jumping your Reserve

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Just a quick poll on a "theoretical" question folllowing discussion at the bar the other night...

If your Reserve was coming up for it's next pack cycle, would you be comfortable to intentionally cut away your perfectly good main so that you could ride the Reserve?

The above question assumes that you can be right above the dropzone and would have no risk of losing any equipment: eg. main, freebag... etc. It also assumes that you would have enough altitude to safely to so.

In other words, do you trust your Reserve enough to ride it intentionally without a 3rd parachute (as is done during tests from what I understand...).

Remember, this is a "theoretical" question. Why you would actually do so is for another poll... ;)

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Not to mention the legalities (it is not legal to do it). I wouldn't do it without a back-up. Probably related to why I don't BASE jump. Sure I trust my reserve, but I don't think it is perfect. I don't ever WANT to be down to 1 canopy, but I am willing to assume the risk of my current method.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

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Never done it but I've seen a friend do it. I have done intentional reserve deployments using a 3rd chute, though. I've also packed new and repaired reserves in a main container and jumped them to see how they flew (straight, in trim, etc). Best to find any problems before the real emergencies, eh?

If you've never had a reserve ride, set one up next time yur reserve is up for a repack, with the third chute and all. Or have my wife pack for you.:ph34r:

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I'd do it if it was a cutaway rig. I wouldn't do it on my regular rig. no point in trading a good parachute for one that might not be a good parachute.

That said, I do plan on jumping a PD176 reserve canopy as a main sometime in the relatively near future. I want to learn how it flies before I really need to know.

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This is one of those questions that shows how changing attitudes have improved the safety in the sport today. Years ago it was not uncommon to see someone cut-away just to do one, or to see how their reserve flew. Hell, I just jumped out and pulled the silver handle when I wanted to test how my square reserve flew. And yes, the DZO was flying the plane and knew my intentions when I jumped out.
blue skies,

art

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In other words, do you trust your Reserve enough to ride it intentionally without a 3rd parachute
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Yes I do. I don't think there is a skydiver out there that would leave the plane without that trust. But no, I would not ride it unless I had to. Jeff

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Not to mention the legalities (it is not legal to do it). I wouldn't do it without a back-up. Probably related to why I don't BASE jump. Sure I trust my reserve, but I don't think it is perfect. I don't ever WANT to be down to 1 canopy, but I am willing to assume the risk of my current method.



and by the way, what makes it illegal? or.. illegal in what sense?

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Hmmm, Cutting away a perfectly good main with only one reserve sounds like the Dumbest thing I've ever heard....Maybe it's just me, but NO!!!

Also, I want my reserve in Tip-tip shape... Why put more deployments on it than absolutly necessary?!?
=========Shaun ==========


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Hmmm. Maybe it's the Yorkshire man in me, but all I can think of is the devaluation of the resale on your reserve. :S

I mean, once you've jumped it you can no longer sell it on with the attractive statement "8 packjobs, no deployments".

Hell, it'd probably work fine, but my kit would be worth less after i'd done it. B|

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Not to mention the legalities (it is not legal to do it). ...

and by the way, what makes it illegal? or.. illegal in what sense?



The FAA regulations clearly prohibit it.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The other reason I would not do that is the loss of credibility as an instructor and rigger.
Sort of like "do as I say, not do as I do."

I would contemplate doing an intentional cutaway - with a third canopy - except that I have deployed 18 reserves (when I really needed them) and have wasted far too much time slogging through the drainage ditches of our airport searching for other people's freebags.
Maybe I am getting too old to search for freebags.

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Here is the simple truth about cutting away a perfectly good main and going to reserve: IT IS STUPID! I do not care if you have 5,000 jumps or 50 jumps, the issue that can be raised by this is that you simply do not respect the sport or the other people that take part in the sport. Granted it may be you that gets killed or injured in a worst case scenerio, it is the DZ that gets the write up and the unecessary drama. Wanna act like an idiot, go base jump without a rig, go 150 in your car and drive off a cliff, but do not bring unecessary risks to the sport.

Still love ya man, but you really are crazy!
Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

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The FAA regulations clearly prohibit it.



How "clearly" is arguable, though we all know what that means with the FAA. The only reference I'm aware of is under §105.3 Definitions - "Reserve parachute means an approved parachute worn for emergency use to be activated only upon failure of the main parachute or in any other emergency where use of the main parachute is impractical or use of the main parachute would increase risk." What constitutes failure of the main parachute is not defined, nor is emergency use. Taken to a literal extreme, the definition could be construed to mean it's illegal for the TSA to pop a reserve or a rigger to deploy it for inspection and repack.

I have no need or desire to intentionally deploy my reserve having done it a number of times unintentionally, but I wouldn't think twice about if I did. Given the complexity of what can go wrong with intentional cutaway systems, I think I'd rather take my chances under a dual pack system. Having never jumped a tertiary system, I'll admit my lack of experience with them. So far, CRW has provided me plenty of thrills I'm not interested in surpassing.

Here's a couple devils-advocate questions:

  1. If you're not willing to cutaway the main and deploy the reserve under the best of circumstances, how can you trust your gear under what will most likely be less advantageous circumstances?


  2. How is it ok to jump a highly loaded pocket rocket known for spinning line twist deployment mals and go silver screaming through 2000 ft but an intentional cutaway from a good main at 3000 ft is nuts?
Bob (0 main deployment mals; 9 cutaways/reserve rides - all CRW)

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If you're not willing to cutaway the main and deploy the reserve under the best of circumstances, how can you trust your gear under what will most likely be less advantageous circumstances?



Willingness to cut a good canopy away and cutting it away when it is bad are two very dif. things. Again, it would be like driving a car on a track at 180 mph. you may trust the tires and the car, but does it mean you trust it less if you wear your seatbelt? No, it just means that you rely on common sense to tell you that "extreme" uncessary risks are illogical.

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How is it ok to jump a highly loaded pocket rocket known for spinning line twist deployment mals and go silver screaming through 2000 ft but an intentional cutaway from a good main at 3000 ft is nuts?



no matter what canopy you jump, you still have a reserve to cover you in case of a mal. However, cut a good canopy away and go to a res. with a mal, now you wish you weren't so illogical.

In the end, I think that watching a very good friend of mine go through a double mal before barely clearing it before he landed, I realized that intentional cutaways are simply unecessary. Furthermore, it was brought to my attention this past week that there are DZ's that have pictures framed of res. pack jobs that were destined to fail do to a riggers mistake (luckily the repack came due before the res. was ever jumped or it would have been a fatality). In the case of the one intentional that I know of, the person had less that 110 jumps and simply decided to do this since his repack was due. Illogical yes! Dangerous yes! Now how many people want a dangerous and illogical person on their next jump?
Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

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Willingness to cut a good canopy away and cutting it away when it is bad are two very dif. things.



How? Once the risers clear the three rings there's no difference except possibly stability, which is likely to be better in the case of a good canopy.

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no matter what canopy you jump, you still have a reserve to cover you in case of a mal. However, cut a good canopy away and go to a res. with a mal, now you wish you weren't so illogical.



Hold on there. One moment I have a reserve to cover me, but the next it's a mal? Which is it? I think jumping main canopies that have a reputation for unrecoverable line twists is a whole lot more illogical than deploying reserves that have a reputation for opening correctly. I also believe there's been way more injuries and death from high performance maneuvers done under good main canopies than from intentional reserve rides.

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In the end, I think that watching a very good friend of mine go through a double mal before barely clearing it before he landed, I realized that intentional cutaways are simply unecessary.



Skydives are unecessary as well, and are considered illogical and dangerous by the majority of people. Did your friend analyze why his main mal'd to begin with? What about the reserve?

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Furthermore, it was brought to my attention this past week that there are DZ's that have pictures framed of res. pack jobs that were destined to fail do to a riggers mistake (luckily the repack came due before the res. was ever jumped or it would have been a fatality).



This just proves that riggers are fallible, but I'll guess most skydivers already realize that. If you want to guarantee you won't die while skydiving, don't jump.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating intentional cutaways for dual pack parachute systems. I hate reserve rides and if I never have another it will be too soon. I just don't think a clean intentional is nearly as stupid or dangerous as many things I see happening at the DZ on a regular basis that many jumpers think are extreme cutting edge moves to strive for. JMO.

Bob

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i know the guy who Tarek is talking about, he had a broken steering line on a very highly loaded canopy and elected to go to reserve and had a lineover on that, which he managed to clear.

Thanks for clearing that stuff up about the FAA regulations, i appreciate having somebody that actually knows a little more then "its against FAA regs" clear it up. :) Learn something new every day. B| You make very good points that maybe that jumper that flyingarab refers to also finds to be very true. Yeah, its a stupid thing to do if the reserve fails, but in all likelyhood with an intentional, anyway, you'll be stable and in a much better position to pull silver then if you were under some wildly malfunctioning main and panicking and just trying to save your life. *shrugs* i'm not saying everybody should go out and do an intentional on a dual parachute rig, but it really is pretty fun. Theoretically speaking, of course. :)
and by the way, the jumper that did the intentional didnt just do it because it was reserve repack time. That was one of the reasons, granted. but there were others.

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...
Thanks for clearing that stuff up about the FAA regulations, i appreciate having somebody that actually knows a little more then "its against FAA regs" clear it up. :) Learn something new every day. B|



I still say that the following quotes from FAR part 105 make it clearly illegal...

"Reserve parachute means an approved parachute worn for emergency use to be activated only upon failure of the main parachute or in any other emergency where use of the main parachute is impractical or use of the main parachute would increase risk."

"Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows..."

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

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I don't see a point, I will if I have to but "just because" is an unnecessary risk IMO... So is doing it because its repack time, or I'm selling it soon anyway so why not.. I'm sure everyone thinks differently but its something I wont do unless I need to. Thats my newbie .02

edit: I would like to do a intentional cutaway with a 3rd chute though...

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