Not jumping with "dangerous" jumpers

[Vallerina 2]

Many of us have heard people who aren't ready for a certain canopy say, "I'll be fine because I don't turn low to the ground, and I've stood up all of my landings." Not being fully aware of the risks they are taking with the canopy they want shows that they may not be fully aware of other risks in the sport.

I haven't been as selective about people that I jump with as I should be. I'm not talking about jumping with someone who isn't a "good" skydiver...I'm talking about people who aren't "aware" skydivers.

Basically, do you jump with someone if you feel that they are being too risky in the air/with their canopy selection/etc? Do you encourage others not to jump with them because they are "dangerous"?

My thoughts are that if someone with 100 jumps wants to buy a Stiletto loaded at 1.6 and won't listen to others advice, maybe they'll take that advice if they have no one to jump with?

Just a random thought for the day....not sure if it belongs in this forum or not.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[FrogNog 1]

Who I jump with is based on personality and perceived risk to my own hide, not punishment or enforcement. (I'm not judging, I'm just saying how I do it.)

There is some relationship here - people who are too cool to think about whether something is dangerous probably aren't going to make me feel comfortable so's I will jump with them, and people who aren't "aware" are scary and I wouldn't want to go out the door with them. (Or even ride the plane with them, if it's really bad. ) But if someone was undersizing and overamping their canopy ride I might still jump with them, insist on my minimum break and opening altitudes, and keep well clear from breakoff to landing.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[PhreeZone 15]

I have an ever growing list of jumpers at the DZ that I refuse to jump with or that I'll move after them in the exit order since they don't understand the concept of exit seperation. Its getting harder to find people that I feel safe enough to jump with, but this is a small price to pay for my increased safety. I have noticed that as my list of people that I don't feel safe in the air with increases, my desire to jump decreases. Its getting more and more common to be limited to doing 2 way freeflies or wingsuit jumps since I don't trust a lot of the up and coming "100 jump" freefliers since they refuse to listen to advice and are very dangerous in my opinion.

I refuse to jump with someone that goes low on every type of skydive you can put together when they have over 500 jumps, I refuse to exit before people that think that the 45 degree rule or 3-4 seconds is the proper exit seperation at all times, I let the people know why I feel this way and I try to stick to my guns on it. I'm not making any friends at the DZ and I'm becoming the outsider quite fasst but I'm more worried about my safety then I am about being super popular.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Reginald 0]

It's funny the more jumps I get the few jumps I want to be on. I'm more than content to limit the people I jump with and the size of the jumps I'm on. In some cases the other people are not ready and in some I'm not ready.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Unstable 8]

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My thoughts are that if someone with 100 jumps wants to buy a Stiletto loaded at 1.6 and won't listen to others advice, maybe they'll take that advice if they have no one to jump with?

My decision not to jump with people is based on my desire for safety, and I am not concerned with trying to "Punish" those who make unsafe decisions. Pretty much what phreezone said.

However, my list really isn't that big at all. I think that I have one guy on it who is long gone by now. I do not think that this is because my expectations are any lower, it's just that at a Single Cessna DZ there are less jumpers, hence much fewer unsafe jumpers than at a large Turbine DZ

=========Shaun ==========

[WrongWay 0]

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I'm not making any friends at the DZ and I'm becoming the outsider quite fasst but I'm more worried about my safety then I am about being super popular.

Small price to pay for staying alive. If caring about safety of yourself and others makes you an outsider at any dz, then I wouldn't jump at that dz. End of story.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[tbrown 26]

We used to call people like that "lurking death" types. I've never really considered what kind of canopy they're jumping, that's really a new part of the equation, but I suppose it's one more way to flaunt their arrogance. I'm more worried about somebody who's going to clean my ass in freefall, I watch out for myself - and everyone else, on breakoff. Once we've all opened, I figure the hotshots are going to get down quicker than me, but I suppose they could clip me on their way past.

We used to socially isolate and refuse to jump with the lurking death types. I guess nowadays they're called "digits" - dead guys in training. You should feel just fine avoiding them, refusing to jump with them, and warning your friends not to jump withh them. The life you save may be your own, or that of a good friend.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[riddler 0]

Kind of depends on the circumstances.

If they are jumping a WL that I think is too high, then I don't have a problem jumping with them, as long as I know they can track away decently. As long as they don't open in my direction and close to me, they don't pose much of a danger to me.

If they are known to be reckless in freefall, I don't jump with them. It's one thing to go low on accident, or swoop in too hard on accident (which I'm guilty of myself ), but doing these things as a matter of standard practice will eventually lead to a FF collision. I've been on belly jumps that went to shit, then people start freeflying - bad idea! Again, I look at how people track - one of the reasons I don't do a lot of freeflying anymore is because I see a lot of "good" freeflyers that flop on their belly and pull without trying to get away. Or maybe it's because the "good" freeflyers don't want to jump with me?

There are one or two people I don't even want to get on the plane with. They are that dangerous, IMO. Folks that jump poorly maintained gear and aren't careful with it on the plane. Usually, the DZ will eliminate these people, or correct them.

If I ever get to the point that there are a lot of people at my DZ that I don't trust, I look for a safer DZ. Some DZs are definitely more tolerant of reckless jumpers. If I don't feel OK about that, I will find a place that is safe.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[firstime 0]

Learned my lesson,
I did a H&P and was tipped off by another jumper to look out for a guy that was getting out after me. I discussed the separation with him prior to the jump in the the plane, hence I got out and dumped looked up to check my lid and this effing moron was already open above me (maybe 200'). I pulled my front risers down to my feet (felt like it) and couldnt
wait to confront this asshole when I got down but he landed off so I didnt get the chance. I will remember his face for the rest of life. A philipino guy
at crosskeys. Not a good thing with my little experience

[ryoder 1,384]

The easiest way to identify them is to search for postings by "ron" to see who he is squabbling with today, and then avoid them.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Daskal 1]

I think that it becomes more of an issue with jumpers who do dangerous things in freefall than it does with what type of canopy the jumper is flying. I stopped freeflying when I realized that my belly skills were not up to par, but I have heard horror stories about collisions in freefall when inexperienced freeflyers jump together.

[MarkM 0]

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I think that it becomes more of an issue with jumpers who do dangerous things in freefall than it does with what type of canopy the jumper is flying. I stopped freeflying when I realized that my belly skills were not up to par, but I have heard horror stories about collisions in freefall when inexperienced freeflyers jump together.

I don't think some people understand how dangerous freeflying can be. One jump I was going to practice getting into a sit and I had a guy who really wanted to follow me out/go out with me to see what I was doing wrong. He had something like 80 jumps total and didn't understand why I thought it was a bad idea. I finally had to ge a little rude in my no's.

[riggerrob 558]

Hee!
Hee!
Reminds me of a perpetually uncurrent junior jumper. He has been jumping for a decade or so, but has less than a hundred jumps and I cannot remember if he ever wrote his A Certificate exam.
Three years ago he bloodied the nose of another instructor. .. something about him being in a violent spin close to opening altitude and the instructor trying to slow the spin.
I told my boss that I refused to jump with Mr. Scary until he bought me the most expensive full-face helmet on the market.
Guess what my boss gave me for a Christmas present?
Hee!
Hee!

[Snowbird 0]

I jump at a wee Cessna dz, so there aren't many others to pick and choose from. And with only 4 of us on any one load, there are fewer bodies to worry about than at a Otter or King Air dz.
That said, two weeks ago I decided that there is one jumper who I will not risk being in the same airspace with again. If he's on the load, I'll pull off. Regardless of any assurances, I won't go there again.

Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
-Robert A. Heinlein

[PhreeZone 15]

Canopy choice should start to figure into your thinking too. If you have some one that flies a pocket rocket with blinders on, that swerves into peoples way because he's going way faster then every one else on the load... that person is a problem and should be avoided. Same thing with the people that wait in half brakes then spirala down right through the middle of the pattern. Thats dangerous behaviour.

A persons brain should be at least 30 seconds ahead of their canopy. You should be able to tell exactly what altitude, what distance, and what heading you want to be at in 30 seconds at all times under canopy. People that can't think that far ahead because their canopy is too fast for them are dangerous and need avoided.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JustRelax 0]

I jump at a small DZ so we pretty much jump with who we jump with.

There are a few characters that have passed through where a sort of social warning goes round and they tend to end up doing solos.

Our CSO was talking to us about hypoxia the other day and mentioned something about personalities. He said there are all sorts of skydivers. Some who take lots of care about everything, others that want to have a good time and others that are sort of into unpredictable fun. He meant it as a personality thing. So he said that learning about the type of people you are jumping with is important.

Since we are a small DZ I would jump with any of the regulars. They fit into the categories above. I am probably the careful type. So if I know the types of people I am jumping with then I can take certain precautions. Its also about other in your plane because they can be in your setup space prior to landing or not observe exit separation.

Since I am new at this sport I figure I am going to learn defensive flying techniques, much like defensive driving. Be aware and predict what people could do around me and be at the ready and skilled to avoid what they could possibly do.

I am not the sort that wants to say to someone's face that I don't want to jump with them, but I will talk to people about what scares me and ask them to agree to some jump rules. I would tend to avoid, where I have a choice, jumping with people with bad reputations.

Like on the road, my emphasis is that I'll go for being a defensive driver on a busy road, rather than only drive when I am completely confident of the skills of the other drivers.

________________________________________
Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[WrongWay 0]

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I have heard horror stories about collisions in freefall when inexperienced freeflyers jump together.

You think the stories are bad, just wait until you watch video of them almost killing themselves, then having them look at you and say ""That was f*cking awesome, wasn't it???".

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[skybill 18]

Just read this whole thread. The only thing that changes is the year, the make and model of the jump A/C and the make and model of the rig.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[kallend 1,623]

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The easiest way to identify them is to search for postings by "ron" to see who he is squabbling with today, and then avoid them.

You'd better stay away from me, then.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[debonair 0]

I made my first jump in 1983.

My jumpmaster told me "Watch how people act on the ground. It's a good indicator of how they'll be in the air."

I've found that to be true on many occasions.

AZChallenger JFTC99/02 GOFAST300 STILLUV4WAY
"It's nothing 1000 jumps won't cure..."
- Jeff Gorlick, Seattle Sky Divers

[cocheese 0]

Watch how people act on the ground.
That seems very wise. hmmm wonder what people think of me.
Everytime you go up in the air , you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.
That's right Iceman . I am dangerous.