the worst DZ in america

[Squeak 17]

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hey, even as "innocent" as it may/maynot seem...you can really shovel out some major dodo on yourself by saying ANYTHING NEGITIVE about a dz.

After saying some negitive stuff I had to deal with cyber stalker/lurkers following me and harrassing me!

SO better be POSITIVE....Better safe than sorry!

Why no beHonest instead

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[skybill 18]

Hey man,
Pecos Parachute School was a "GAG!!!" The video was called "Proof" and the movie that got made around it is called "Fandango." The only other gag they should have done is on the takeoff, the 182 should have flown "under" the wires!!!!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[spedbus 0]

no doubt.

You'll lose speed, but keep altitude. It will look like you have a choice, speed or height, but either way you're still gonna nose-dive into the ground.
-Chuck Palahniuk

[spedbus 0]

i just did my first skydive at Freefall Express a few weeks ago at the HILLBILLY BOOGIE they throw every year and i loved it! i mean i'd never jumped out of a CASA before...which cost me a case of beer.

You'll lose speed, but keep altitude. It will look like you have a choice, speed or height, but either way you're still gonna nose-dive into the ground.
-Chuck Palahniuk

[kelpdiver 2]

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As long as it's based on personl factual experiences and not slanderous, whats's the problem

Aside from the bad will it generates, how do you know your experience is representative? If you have a bad experience and the option to go somewhere else instead, you go ahead and do that. So you have 90% of your jumps at places you like, 10% (?) at ones you don't. Which place are you more qualified to speak of?

It only takes one bad person to give a poor impression, but is that person still there? You need to be very sure of your facts before using them.

Still seems much more productive to highlight the good. The others can try to raise themselves up.

[happythoughts 0]

Truman is an excellent instructor though. Newer instructors rarely mention the "Modified Frog" exit position.

[towerrat 0]

ya know,
everybody keeps talking about how the skydiving community is different,feel the love, can't we all just get along, blah, blah, blah. While I do agree with some of it some of the time, I refuse to be treated like shit anywhere, even the dropzone.
If I walk onto your DZ to make some jumps, I am a CUSTOMER, no more, no less.If you treat me well, I will try to come back, if you treat me badly, I will tell everyone I know.
You speak of bad will and representative experience. I don't care how other people were treated if you ( a DZ ) were nasty to me. And if you have treated me poorly, you have already sewn the seeds of bad will.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[piisfish 135]

at a commercial DZ you can have that CUSTOMER attitude, at a non commercial DZ you must come with a FAMILY MEMBER/FRIEND attitude...
That's my opinion...
in any case every DZ has pro's and con's, some we might like, some we might not be able to cope with... If you don't like it, move, go somewhere else... If you like it, let it know.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mofo554 0]

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ya know,
everybody keeps talking about how the skydiving community is different,feel the love, can't we all just get along, blah, blah, blah. While I do agree with some of it some of the time, I refuse to be treated like shit anywhere, even the dropzone.
If I walk onto your DZ to make some jumps, I am a CUSTOMER, no more, no less.If you treat me well, I will try to come back, if you treat me badly, I will tell everyone I know.
You speak of bad will and representative experience. I don't care how other people were treated if you ( a DZ ) were nasty to me. And if you have treated me poorly, you have already sewn the seeds of bad will.

I couldn't agree more. So many people on here seem to be against discussing negative opinions and some negative factual aspects of this sport...it never ceases to amaze me. To all who refused to comment, or told the original poster that they might ask their question in a different way: If you went to a restaurant and got horrible service and/or terrible/dirty food, would you tell others to stay away? To me, at least, this seems like such a simple concept - if you go somewhere where the service and/or goods provided are subpar, you let others know so that they don't make the mistake of going there. Why wouldn't you? Skydiving operations, like any other businesses, are not immune to problems which would cause others to speak poorly of them. I think peopel should encourage such discussion, provided, of course, that it is reported in a fair manner.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Right, but voicing a negative opinion of a DZ will get you shunned by the locals (who tend to defend a DZ regardless of what it does) and could get you banned by the DZO. So people don't say anything negative about DZ's and the negatives don't get fixed/addressed.

A DZ had a King Air crash w/ the RH engine 2000 hours past TBO (Time Before Overhaul). Now, given the TBO doesn’t have to be done legally. The aircraft should have been able to climb on one engine with only the pilot on board and light on fuel, but it crashed anyway. The locals will jump up and down telling anyone and everyone who will listen how safe the DZ is and how good the maintenance on the aircraft is and how good the pilots are in the face of the before mentioned facts.

The ‘family atmosphere’ also means that people will defend their ‘family’, even when it is wrong.

It is refreshing for me to be able to say anything I want about a DZ w/o fear of banning, or at least that banning having any effect on me.

Derek

[happythoughts 0]

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If you went to a restaurant and got horrible service and/or terrible/dirty food, would you tell others to stay away?

I tend to do that at a restaurant. At a dz, I talk to the dzo.

[piisfish 135]

there are ways to express negative opinions, like say you don't like this DZ because of this or that, but in no way say this is the worse DZ in the country... First of all you never know who you are addressing your opininon (specially on the net), and secondly you certainly didn't visit all DZ's in the states...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Hooknswoop 19]

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there are ways to express negative opinions, like say you don't like this DZ because of this or that, but in no way say this is the worse DZ in the country... First of all you never know who you are addressing your opininon (specially on the net), and secondly you certainly didn't visit all DZ's in the states...

I agree. It would be very difficult to name a DZ as the worst in the country.

My point was people refrain from saying ANYTHING negative about a DZ because of fear of reprisal.

Derek

[piisfish 135]

I have no problem saying what I don't like, but I prefer to say the positive sides (there is always one...) and maybe develop more points on the DZ's I prefer...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BabaLouie 0]

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A DZ had a King Air crash w/ the RH engine 2000 hours past TBO (Time Before Overhaul). Now, given the TBO doesn’t have to be done legally. The aircraft should have been able to climb on one engine with only the pilot on board and light on fuel, but it crashed anyway. Derek

Safety is the ONLY topic that I will use to judge a DZ and then I do so with discretion. Everything else is very subjective. Was I having a bad day, where the regulars at the DZ having a bad day?

The personal dynamics at a DZ are amazingly, well, dynamic. I take that into account, that and the fact that I know that I can be at times, difficult. But I am learning to tone that part of me down

[billvon 2,384]

>It only takes one bad person to give a poor impression, but is that person still there?

Agreed, but this isn't bowling, it's skydiving. If you keep quiet for fear of offending someone, people can die. There have been a few places (Ted Mayfield's place) where people died due to safety problems; I recall one instance where a SL student was dispatched via a string tied to a regular throwout PC. He died when he had a deployment problem. An AAD might have saved him but he didn't have one.

That being said, such places are few and far between nowadays (fortunately.) But I don't see much good in keeping unsafe DZ's a secret, even if it gets people riled up.

[damion75 0]

There is a lot of talk here about not bad mouthing DZs, which is a good thing, but also about being honest about them, which is also a good thing.

Has anyone in this discussion looked in the dropzone reviews recently? There are a lot of people being pretty honest in there... and apparently without fear of 'reprisal'.

Since those reviews exist, this thread does seem pretty futile. If acrojunky (sp?) wants to know which DZs to avoid, then check out their reviews...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[acrojunky 0]

TAKE IN ACOUNT WITCH IS MORE IMPORTANT WHERE YOU WILL BE ALOWED TO JUMP OR YOUR FELLOW SKYDIVERS PERSONEL SAFTY BE IT HIS/HER LIFE OR NOT LET'S STOP THINKING ABOUT OURSELF'S AND START THINKING ABOUT OTHERS/STUDENTS WHO DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER AND MIGHT BE POOTING THEMSELF'S IN A DANGERUS SITUATION PLUS THE DZ OWNER WOULDN'T BAN YOU BECAUSE HE/SHE DOSE NOT PERSONALY KNOW YOU IF YOUR SO WORIED DON'T TELL ANYBODY WHO YOU ARE TAKE IT OUT OF YOUR PROFILE BUT I THINK IT'S TIME TO STOP HIDING

[Hooknswoop 19]

I agree w/ all 3 of your points.

I do think that people, whether they fear it or not, pay for even honest, safety-based negativity towards a DZ. I think other people see this and remain quiet for fear being treated the same as the person that voiced an opinion.

Remember, like even USPA admits on their web page, “No organization rates the relative safety of skydiving schools.”

If skydivers don’t share this information, they will have to learn the hard way at a new DZ and DZO’s will have no motivation to fix deficiencies.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

As I discovered, most people won't take a stand and will let those who do fall by the wayside. Wouldn't want to jeopardize their skydiving for a little thing like safety, now would we?

As noble as your sentiments are, even if a DZ is unsafe, voicing those issues WILL have consequences.

I have been very vocal about safety concerns. I am sure I would be unwelcome at a number of DZ’s because of it.

Posting anonymously will cause people to think you are simply bashing the DZ. Posting under your name will cause most people to believe you had a falling out w/ the DZ and are simply trying to get even. Basically, most people won’t believe you and those of those that will, most won’t care.

Derek

[matthewcline 0]

I think we all must remember that skydiving is a slice of "our" local society. We will find all sorts of "mentality" in our beloved sport. If the DZ you go to isn't for you, find one that is. Hope fully it is not to much trouble so you will stay in the sport! We need all the skydivers we can get!

One of the DZ's I go to frequently has been bashed here but I find I fit in well there. Maybe My mentallity is the same "grumpy ass" as the DZo was described or maybe I had the same mind set of safety as the DZO.

It doesn't matter. Use the positive aproach to finding a DZ and you will get much better responses, wont be called a "troll" and be a happier skydiver in your travels!

Blue Skies!

[Thanatos340 1]

The worst DZ I Jumped at was the first one I went to. It was in 1992 in Chattanooga TN. It was called High Adventure Mountain Sports. It had a lot in common with the Fandango DZ. The guy that ran the place also had a Bungee Tower and Hand Gliding Simulator (Basically a Hanging off a Cable that ran from the top of the 120’ cliff to the ground).
We were Jumping Piglet 23 Rounds and using a Cessna 152. The same guy was the pilot and the instructor. They used a Modified Static Line Course but there was no Static Line. Once you got to altitude (3000 Ft) you handed your Pilot Chute to the Pilot/Instructor and got out on the strut. After you jumped, the Pilot/Instructor would hold onto the Pilot Chute until your pin was pulled and then release it. You were guided to the ground (with what little control you had with a Piglet 23) by a local Kid standing in a Big Arrow who had never jumped and never really done this before.
I jumped there twice before I thought that maybe this wasn’t the best place to learn.

[Softdocker 0]

Hey All,

Skymama's right. We all know of dzones we won't go back to. How about hearing about those we should seek out? I'm hooked on the Blue Sky Ranch in NY. Awesome facilities; great crowd. Need I say more?

Happy Trails

You only live once. . . . Let's Rock!

[Squeak 17]

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As I discovered, most people won't take a stand and will let those who do fall by the wayside. Wouldn't want to jeopardize their skydiving for a little thing like safety, now would we?

As noble as your sentiments are, even if a DZ is unsafe, voicing those issues WILL have consequences.

I have been very vocal about safety concerns. I am sure I would be unwelcome at a number of DZ’s because of it.

Posting anonymously will cause people to think you are simply bashing the DZ. Posting under your name will cause most people to believe you had a falling out w/ the DZ and are simply trying to get even. Basically, most people won’t believe you and those of those that will, most won’t care.

Derek

But this should not and does not prevent me from voicing them, I realy don't care if people shun me for my opinion or if a DZO banns me from a DZ,
If I feel strongly enough about a concern to bring it up publicly, I'm most likely not going back to that DZ anyway.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[kelpdiver 2]

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That being said, such places are few and far between nowadays (fortunately.) But I don't see much good in keeping unsafe DZ's a secret, even if it gets people riled up.

If this discussion was entirely about safety issues, I'd tend to agree. But I thought we were talking about the bigger picture of unhappy customers.

I don't think as much is accomplished by saying that this DZ is run by a bunch of assholes. One, as I said, it could have been an atypical experience, and two, quite a few customers that make that complaint are assholes too. The customer is not always right, and in a sport that is rarely run like a business, even less often. And far too often you find online rants come from personal disputes.

Hell, would you take any complaints from a lowtimer like me very seriously anyway? What do i know? I could blame a DZ or two for the wind problems I've had, but hopefully no one would really take it to heart.

So anyway, safety failures aside, I think it's far better to praise the great places and people. Privately I'd talk about those I'm less thrilled about, but I'm not going to be more than vague here.