ltdiver 3 #1 July 19, 2004 So, there I was peacefully packing from our last jump of the day. The afternoon was finally cooling off and the few die-hards who stay at the DZ until the sunset jump on Sunday were gearing up for their last hurrah. Peaceful, until I hear...off to my right...a fist fight begin! At first I think it's just two guys practicing their kickboxing and punches, but it kept going on and neither party seemed inclined to stop. Thankfully a 3rd party stepped in and separated the two. Story...seems that one of our very respected packers was stiffed in his packing fee when a customer rode the plane down. He had a gear check in the plane and his checker notified him that there was no color showing in his bridle's window. He chose to ride the plane down instead of jump. He then notified the packer that he was not going to pay for the pack job. And the fight began. So, in your opinion, should he (the jumper) have paid the packer? Or is he justified in keeping his $$. When is it ever justified to keep a packer's fee? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 July 19, 2004 Abso-fucking-lutly. You pay for your pack job. Even if it's a malfunction. If the guy was too dumb to a) check his own gear befor he put it on his back, b) get a gear check on the ground, or c) know gear well enough (yes, even the rental gear) to see that the P/C was cocked, the marking has just sild up a 1/2 inch, then he deserves wasting a jump ticke. I'll tell you one thing. That guy not only will have a hard time getting a pack job ever again, but attitudes like that rarely last on a DZ. Good riddance to the asshat. (PS is this the same incident as happend (Sat Night? or did it happen again on Sunday too?)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #3 July 19, 2004 As JP said, the jumper fucked up by not checking his gear on the ground. He is the one jumping it, it is his ass. (does the packer make a habit of making packing errors?) Now as to who threw the first punch. If the jumper threw the first punch, he should be outa there for 30 days or so. If the packer threw the first punch, no packing for 30 days or so. There are better ways to settle things now that they are out of high school. The third party that broke it up should get a free jump. jmo. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #4 July 19, 2004 I agree with you, JP. I always check both my pins and pc's state before donning my rig for the ride up. If I'm on a tight back-to-back I gotta trust my packer, but always have a teammate check my gear after seatbelts are off. As far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday). Didn't recognize the subject, but he was over in the north packing area when it happened. What are people's opinion of a rental canopy that is torn on opening (and a packer hooked it up and packed it)? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #5 July 19, 2004 Quote(does the packer make a habit of making packing errors?) No. QuoteThere are better ways to settle things now that they are out of high school. What I was thinking at the time, as well. I believe I saw our DZ manager go over and chat with the offender. He walked away, afterwards, shaking his head. I guess there are some skydivers who never learn to play nice. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #6 July 19, 2004 QuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday). Didn't recognize the subject, but he was over in the north packing area when it happened. Good god. You know it happened Saturday night too? I wonder if the paries, or party (jumper or packer) involved was the same? As for the question about canopy damage, well the packer sure ain't responsible. You pay your dime and take your chance. If you don't like it, you should be packingit yourself anyway.... The packer from the incident on Saturday night is one of the DZ's oldest, and more respected. He definately knows his shit, and is one of the few that has a rigger's ticket. I'd let him pack for me anyday, Even on thos back to backs, I can check the pin before I put the rig on. That dude had no excuse.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #7 July 19, 2004 QuoteYou pay for your pack job. Even if it's a malfunction. Funny that you mention this... Last weekend my packer packed me a nice line over...he wouldn't accept payment for the packjob, even though I would have paid. It was my first mal on a sport rig requiring a cutaway out of 3500 jumps, so I think I am ahead of the game anyway. Shit happens, sometimes you have to use your reserve, it's all part of the game of skydiving.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #8 July 19, 2004 QuoteThe packer from the incident on Saturday night is one of the DZ's oldest, and more respected. He definately knows his shit, and is one of the few that has a rigger's ticket. I'd let him pack for me anyday, Ditto. QuoteEven on thos back to backs, I can check the pin before I put the rig on. Yeah, you have a faster canopy than me, probably pull a bit lower, and have younger legs too (for running). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #9 July 19, 2004 QuoteThe third party that broke it up should get a free jump. jmo. the packer and the jumper should buy the ticket...Neither should resort to this kind of behavior...its just stupid... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #10 July 19, 2004 QuoteWhat are people's opinion of a rental canopy that is torn on opening (and a packer hooked it up and packed it)? DZs' risk. Neither packer nor jumper. If gear is rented from the DZ for $$, it is the DZs' responsibility to keep it well maintained and replace it if damaged (unless the jumper willingly damages it). That's what you pay the rental fee for isn't it?The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #11 July 19, 2004 You pay for the pack job. Not the gear check, Not the deployment. You pay for the pack job. If I find someone at my DZ not paying a packer - they can fuck off - and never come back, and I'll pay the packer. I probably won't fight with them - but I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #12 July 19, 2004 If I was the packer I would have payed the guys jumping ticket. Malfunctions might happen sometimes but it it is clearly a mistake you should not pay the packer. You pay manoy and as a return you can expect a pack job packed with all the skills the packer has. Line-over or twist might happen (no discussion about that) but this is clearly an error In the past I've packed a lot of rigs and I allways gave "free reserve repack" at a rigger the jumper chooses. They never needed it. On the other hand packers gave me o couple of tandemreserves including one highspeed (monkeyfist on droque) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #13 July 19, 2004 QuoteYou pay for your pack job. Even if it's a malfunction. Yup. If you're too busy or lazy to pack for yourself, you pays your money and takes your chances. If you're too busy, lazy or stupid to check the rig before you put it on and then blame someone else for your own stupidity, you shouldn't be jumping out of airplanes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelem 0 #14 July 19, 2004 1. The jumper should have checked the gear when he put it on. 2. The jumper has a right to be very pissed off at the packer, but not to get into a fight. 3. If the pilot chute had not been cocked, then the packer should refuse to be paid. 4. If the pilot chute had not been cocked, then the jumper shouldn't pay the packer, because his product (the packjob) was not fit for the purpose it was intended for. As a packer, I wouldn't expect to be paid for something which doesn't work. I may even pay for the reserve repack, because it would be my fault. Someone is bound to come up with the 'but packers are doing it for a living' thing, which just doesn't stand. Taking a conservative 1 mal in 500 packjobs, £5 for a pack and £35 for a reserve repack (the costs near me), that would mean that for every repack the packer needed to pay for, they would have been paid 500 * £5 = £2500. I think they can afford £35. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattsplat 0 #15 July 19, 2004 It was his own fault for not doing a gear check!Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pkasdorf 0 #16 July 19, 2004 Quote1. The jumper should have checked the gear when he put it on. 2. The jumper has a right to be very pissed off at the packer, but not to get into a fight. 3. If the pilot chute had not been cocked, then the packer should refuse to be paid. 4. If the pilot chute had not been cocked, then the jumper shouldn't pay the packer, because his product (the packjob) was not fit for the purpose it was intended for. As a packer, I wouldn't expect to be paid for something which doesn't work. I may even pay for the reserve repack, because it would be my fault. Someone is bound to come up with the 'but packers are doing it for a living' thing, which just doesn't stand. Taking a conservative 1 mal in 500 packjobs, £5 for a pack and £35 for a reserve repack (the costs near me), that would mean that for every repack the packer needed to pay for, they would have been paid 500 * £5 = £2500. I think they can afford £35. PERFECT ANSWER HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #17 July 19, 2004 I was not at the DZ in question, and do not know either person. I have identified several issues that should be sorted out in this case. 1) While the jumper failed to inspect his gear on the ground as he should have, he did get a final pin check prior to exit, and he should be commended for that. Likewise, he made a difficult decision to ride the plane down because he was uncertain about his equipment, and he should be commended for that. My hunch is that this jumper learned an important lesson about trusting packers and inspecting his gear, and will not allow the same mistake to happen again. I also suspect other jumpers who have not thought much about pin checks will use this incident as a catalyst to revisit the task. 2) Fighting should not be allowed on the DZ at any time, for any reason. The person who started the fight should be ejected from the DZ and should not be permitted to return. Packers and drop zone employees/contractors should never get into a physical fight with a customer, nor should they continue a fight beyond basic self-defense. That’s a matter of good customer relations on the part of the business. If a packer (or any dz employee/contractor) is involved in a fight with a customer beyond self-defense, that person should be dismissed from the business, even if he did not start the fight. Fighting degrades the recreational experience for every customer, and should not be tolerated. 3) While every jumper is responsible for checking his own gear, the packer is responsible for making sure the work is done properly. The FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. The FAA defines “direct supervision” to include taking responsibility for that packing. By this federal standard, the packer (or his supervisor) is responsible for the pack job. (See 14 CFR, part 105.43(a) and 105.3 listed below) Ideally, both the packer and the customer will check the bridle to ensure the pilot chute has been set. In this case it appears neither person checked the work. The packer or rigger is required to understand and follow all manufacturers procedures, and that includes the directions for packing a collapsible pilot chute, if one is installed. The workmanship and final inspection are the responsibility of the packer, and since he failed to do what is expected by the manufacturer and the regulations, he should not charge for the work. The jumper should have checked the workmanship before boarding the airplane, but did not, so the jumper should be responsible for the cost of the unused jump ticket. (See 14 CFR part 65.129(e)) 4) Mistakes sometimes happen in any business, and in any relationship. It’s possible the bridle marking may have worn off, or it may have been just inside the window and not visible. It is also possible that the pilot chute was not set at all. Once the problem was detected and the jumper was back on the ground, the best solution would have been for the packer to realize he had not delivered the rig in jumpable condition, and he should have immediately offered a refund on the pack job. He should have then pulled the line out of the bridle a short distance to see if it was marked and set, and should have helped the jumper to understand how to do that simple inspection on his own. If the bridle was not set at all, the packer should apologize for making the mistake and repack the rig from the start to detect any other errors that might have been made, and to reassure his customer. 5) Packers need to think of themselves as both mechanics who deal with equipment, and business people who deal with customers. Quote Federal Aviation Regulations 105.43 (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. 105.3 Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may… (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute…Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #18 July 19, 2004 How about if the PC was cocked, but just slid the color just outside the window? I don't have a window on my kill line. I repack the PC on every jump I have a packer pack for me. I like it packed my way and I like verifying its set.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #19 July 19, 2004 Why didn't the jumper check it on the ground?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Harksaw 0 #20 July 19, 2004 QuoteHow about if the PC was cocked, but just slid the color just outside the window? I don't have a window on my kill line. I repack the PC on every jump I have a packer pack for me. I like it packed my way and I like verifying its set. Thats what I was thinking. I pack quite a bit and I'd say on a good number of the rigs, the PC can be cocked and not show it on the window, due either to a 1/4 inch uncocking during bagging or just not having the color on the right area. If I was the packer, I'd check to see if the PC was cocked or not. If I had indeed forgotten to cock the PC I wouldn't ask for payment. (I probably wouldn't pay for his jump ticket, though) If it was cocked but not showing I would definitely expect payment.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cderham 0 #21 July 19, 2004 Packin Cathy at 2002 WFFC paid for my repack. I had a really questionable mal. I had a toggle come out in head down. I have a vector 3 and tru-loc toggles. No explaination available? We tried. She paid for my repack even when we had no Idea if there was a packers error or not. I have since used her packers at every place they have been when I attend. Ya its a buck more ($6 compared to $5) but look at the service you get. I'll gladly pay for any mal even when he when the packer refuses payment. Packin Cathy may have paid for my repack but my packer got a bigger tip!! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites councilman24 36 #22 July 19, 2004 Quote3) While every jumper is responsible for checking his own gear, the packer is responsible for making sure the work is done properly. The FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. The FAA defines “direct supervision” to include taking responsibility for that packing. By this federal standard, the packer (or his supervisor) is responsible for the pack job. (See 14 CFR, part 105.43(a) and 105.3 listed below) Ideally, both the packer and the customer will check the bridle to ensure the pilot chute has been set. In this case it appears neither person checked the work. The packer or rigger is required to understand and follow all manufacturers procedures, and that includes the directions for packing a collapsible pilot chute, if one is installed. The workmanship and final inspection are the responsibility of the packer, and since he failed to do what is expected by the manufacturer and the regulations, he should not charge for the work. The jumper should have checked the workmanship before boarding the airplane, but did not, so the jumper should be responsible for the cost of the unused jump ticket. (See 14 CFR part 65.129(e)) 4) Mistakes sometimes happen in any business, and in any relationship. It’s possible the bridle marking may have worn off, or it may have been just inside the window and not visible. It is also possible that the pilot chute was not set at all. Once the problem was detected and the jumper was back on the ground, the best solution would have been for the packer to realize he had not delivered the rig in jumpable condition, and he should have immediately offered a refund on the pack job. He should have then pulled the line out of the bridle a short distance to see if it was marked and set, and should have helped the jumper to understand how to do that simple inspection on his own. If the bridle was not set at all, the packer should apologize for making the mistake and repack the rig from the start to detect any other errors that might have been made, and to reassure his customer. 5) Packers need to think of themselves as both mechanics who deal with equipment, and business people who deal with customers. Quote Federal Aviation Regulations 105.43 (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. 105.3 Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may… (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute… To simplify, a main packed by anybody other than the jumper has to meet all the requirements of a reserve, except the logging and seal. If the PC wasn't cocked at all, refund the pack job and at least half the ticket. (Other half on jumper for not checking on the ground) But, I'd refund all the ticket and appologize profusely. If your main doesn't work your started on the cascade to a fatality. PC in tow is one of the scariest, I've been there. If the kill line had slipped but the PC was still functional, the "offer" not to pay the packer is reasonable. "You pay your money and take your chance" with a main pack job. Hmmm, you should be paying for rigger quality and responsibility. They should be held to the same responsibility as a reserve. They're covered under the same regs. Now, is this reasonable. Probably not, and thats why I don't pack mains. (I take that back. I will pack a main, for my regular $40 fee) I'm held to the same standard, means the same cost. Hmmm do I need Nomex?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #23 July 19, 2004 When I was packing my standard line was "if I pack you a mal, I'll repack your reserve free." While I was trying to be funny, what I meant was that I would take responsibility for the mal and take care of the repack (whether paying another rigger or doing it myself). It's funny, now that I don't pack for anybody my views have changed. I'm paying for a pack job, not an opening. My rig, me being lazy, my responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #24 July 19, 2004 QuoteThe FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. Said packer -is- a rigger and I see him check the pc's cocking every pack job he makes (even though we, as customers are supposed to cock it before delivery to him). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #25 July 19, 2004 QuoteWhy didn't the jumper check it on the ground? Don't know. And I, for sure, wasn't going to walk over and find out after that boxing match. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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pkasdorf 0 #16 July 19, 2004 Quote1. The jumper should have checked the gear when he put it on. 2. The jumper has a right to be very pissed off at the packer, but not to get into a fight. 3. If the pilot chute had not been cocked, then the packer should refuse to be paid. 4. If the pilot chute had not been cocked, then the jumper shouldn't pay the packer, because his product (the packjob) was not fit for the purpose it was intended for. As a packer, I wouldn't expect to be paid for something which doesn't work. I may even pay for the reserve repack, because it would be my fault. Someone is bound to come up with the 'but packers are doing it for a living' thing, which just doesn't stand. Taking a conservative 1 mal in 500 packjobs, £5 for a pack and £35 for a reserve repack (the costs near me), that would mean that for every repack the packer needed to pay for, they would have been paid 500 * £5 = £2500. I think they can afford £35. PERFECT ANSWER HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #17 July 19, 2004 I was not at the DZ in question, and do not know either person. I have identified several issues that should be sorted out in this case. 1) While the jumper failed to inspect his gear on the ground as he should have, he did get a final pin check prior to exit, and he should be commended for that. Likewise, he made a difficult decision to ride the plane down because he was uncertain about his equipment, and he should be commended for that. My hunch is that this jumper learned an important lesson about trusting packers and inspecting his gear, and will not allow the same mistake to happen again. I also suspect other jumpers who have not thought much about pin checks will use this incident as a catalyst to revisit the task. 2) Fighting should not be allowed on the DZ at any time, for any reason. The person who started the fight should be ejected from the DZ and should not be permitted to return. Packers and drop zone employees/contractors should never get into a physical fight with a customer, nor should they continue a fight beyond basic self-defense. That’s a matter of good customer relations on the part of the business. If a packer (or any dz employee/contractor) is involved in a fight with a customer beyond self-defense, that person should be dismissed from the business, even if he did not start the fight. Fighting degrades the recreational experience for every customer, and should not be tolerated. 3) While every jumper is responsible for checking his own gear, the packer is responsible for making sure the work is done properly. The FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. The FAA defines “direct supervision” to include taking responsibility for that packing. By this federal standard, the packer (or his supervisor) is responsible for the pack job. (See 14 CFR, part 105.43(a) and 105.3 listed below) Ideally, both the packer and the customer will check the bridle to ensure the pilot chute has been set. In this case it appears neither person checked the work. The packer or rigger is required to understand and follow all manufacturers procedures, and that includes the directions for packing a collapsible pilot chute, if one is installed. The workmanship and final inspection are the responsibility of the packer, and since he failed to do what is expected by the manufacturer and the regulations, he should not charge for the work. The jumper should have checked the workmanship before boarding the airplane, but did not, so the jumper should be responsible for the cost of the unused jump ticket. (See 14 CFR part 65.129(e)) 4) Mistakes sometimes happen in any business, and in any relationship. It’s possible the bridle marking may have worn off, or it may have been just inside the window and not visible. It is also possible that the pilot chute was not set at all. Once the problem was detected and the jumper was back on the ground, the best solution would have been for the packer to realize he had not delivered the rig in jumpable condition, and he should have immediately offered a refund on the pack job. He should have then pulled the line out of the bridle a short distance to see if it was marked and set, and should have helped the jumper to understand how to do that simple inspection on his own. If the bridle was not set at all, the packer should apologize for making the mistake and repack the rig from the start to detect any other errors that might have been made, and to reassure his customer. 5) Packers need to think of themselves as both mechanics who deal with equipment, and business people who deal with customers. Quote Federal Aviation Regulations 105.43 (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. 105.3 Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may… (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute…Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #18 July 19, 2004 How about if the PC was cocked, but just slid the color just outside the window? I don't have a window on my kill line. I repack the PC on every jump I have a packer pack for me. I like it packed my way and I like verifying its set.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #19 July 19, 2004 Why didn't the jumper check it on the ground?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #20 July 19, 2004 QuoteHow about if the PC was cocked, but just slid the color just outside the window? I don't have a window on my kill line. I repack the PC on every jump I have a packer pack for me. I like it packed my way and I like verifying its set. Thats what I was thinking. I pack quite a bit and I'd say on a good number of the rigs, the PC can be cocked and not show it on the window, due either to a 1/4 inch uncocking during bagging or just not having the color on the right area. If I was the packer, I'd check to see if the PC was cocked or not. If I had indeed forgotten to cock the PC I wouldn't ask for payment. (I probably wouldn't pay for his jump ticket, though) If it was cocked but not showing I would definitely expect payment.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cderham 0 #21 July 19, 2004 Packin Cathy at 2002 WFFC paid for my repack. I had a really questionable mal. I had a toggle come out in head down. I have a vector 3 and tru-loc toggles. No explaination available? We tried. She paid for my repack even when we had no Idea if there was a packers error or not. I have since used her packers at every place they have been when I attend. Ya its a buck more ($6 compared to $5) but look at the service you get. I'll gladly pay for any mal even when he when the packer refuses payment. Packin Cathy may have paid for my repack but my packer got a bigger tip!! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #22 July 19, 2004 Quote3) While every jumper is responsible for checking his own gear, the packer is responsible for making sure the work is done properly. The FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. The FAA defines “direct supervision” to include taking responsibility for that packing. By this federal standard, the packer (or his supervisor) is responsible for the pack job. (See 14 CFR, part 105.43(a) and 105.3 listed below) Ideally, both the packer and the customer will check the bridle to ensure the pilot chute has been set. In this case it appears neither person checked the work. The packer or rigger is required to understand and follow all manufacturers procedures, and that includes the directions for packing a collapsible pilot chute, if one is installed. The workmanship and final inspection are the responsibility of the packer, and since he failed to do what is expected by the manufacturer and the regulations, he should not charge for the work. The jumper should have checked the workmanship before boarding the airplane, but did not, so the jumper should be responsible for the cost of the unused jump ticket. (See 14 CFR part 65.129(e)) 4) Mistakes sometimes happen in any business, and in any relationship. It’s possible the bridle marking may have worn off, or it may have been just inside the window and not visible. It is also possible that the pilot chute was not set at all. Once the problem was detected and the jumper was back on the ground, the best solution would have been for the packer to realize he had not delivered the rig in jumpable condition, and he should have immediately offered a refund on the pack job. He should have then pulled the line out of the bridle a short distance to see if it was marked and set, and should have helped the jumper to understand how to do that simple inspection on his own. If the bridle was not set at all, the packer should apologize for making the mistake and repack the rig from the start to detect any other errors that might have been made, and to reassure his customer. 5) Packers need to think of themselves as both mechanics who deal with equipment, and business people who deal with customers. Quote Federal Aviation Regulations 105.43 (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. 105.3 Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may… (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute… To simplify, a main packed by anybody other than the jumper has to meet all the requirements of a reserve, except the logging and seal. If the PC wasn't cocked at all, refund the pack job and at least half the ticket. (Other half on jumper for not checking on the ground) But, I'd refund all the ticket and appologize profusely. If your main doesn't work your started on the cascade to a fatality. PC in tow is one of the scariest, I've been there. If the kill line had slipped but the PC was still functional, the "offer" not to pay the packer is reasonable. "You pay your money and take your chance" with a main pack job. Hmmm, you should be paying for rigger quality and responsibility. They should be held to the same responsibility as a reserve. They're covered under the same regs. Now, is this reasonable. Probably not, and thats why I don't pack mains. (I take that back. I will pack a main, for my regular $40 fee) I'm held to the same standard, means the same cost. Hmmm do I need Nomex?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #23 July 19, 2004 When I was packing my standard line was "if I pack you a mal, I'll repack your reserve free." While I was trying to be funny, what I meant was that I would take responsibility for the mal and take care of the repack (whether paying another rigger or doing it myself). It's funny, now that I don't pack for anybody my views have changed. I'm paying for a pack job, not an opening. My rig, me being lazy, my responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #24 July 19, 2004 QuoteThe FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. Said packer -is- a rigger and I see him check the pc's cocking every pack job he makes (even though we, as customers are supposed to cock it before delivery to him). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #25 July 19, 2004 QuoteWhy didn't the jumper check it on the ground? Don't know. And I, for sure, wasn't going to walk over and find out after that boxing match. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
