Ron 7
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QuoteIf you have an AAD and go on jumps you would not do without an AAD...Then you are dependent and that is bad....If you would not do the jump without it....Why do that jump at all?
When did skydiving stop being about personal risk management and start being about rules?
I know at least one person who will not do bigways without a CYPRES. I don't think that's unreasonable. If there's a higher chance of getting knocked unconscious on that jump, a risk that can only partially be mitigated by your skill as has been demonstrated by world champion skydivers burning in, why is it such a bad thing to require yourself to have a reliable AAD on this dive? It's like saying that if you can't do RW without a helmet, you shouldn't do RW at all. This attitude would disqualify Arizona Airspeed, so it can't be good.
What was the name of that RW champion who did a 4 way without a CYPRES, got knocked unconcious, burned in, and caused everyone to rush and get an AAD?
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
Ron 7
QuoteWhen did skydiving stop being about personal risk management and start being about rules?
Good question.
And my answer is this: If you need an AAD to do a certain dive...Then you are using bad judgment to do that dive with one.
So you are willing to increase you risk if you have an AAD? That IS device dependency.
And allowing a device like that do increase your risk is foolish.
QuoteI know at least one person who will not do bigways without a CYPRES. I don't think that's unreasonable. If there's a higher chance of getting knocked unconscious on that jump, a risk that can only partially be mitigated by your skill as has been demonstrated by world champion skydivers burning in, why is it such a bad thing to require yourself to have a reliable AAD on this dive?
A better choice is not do the dive anyway....You see if you eliminate the chance of getting knocked out, you will not need the AAD to save you.
QuoteIt's like saying that if you can't do RW without a helmet, you shouldn't do RW at all. This attitude would disqualify Arizona Airspeed, so it can't be good.
Actualy no...Gerrard jumps without a helmet alot.
And I bet the entire 8 way team could jump without a helmet just fine if they wanted to.
QuoteWhat was the name of that RW champion who did a 4 way without a CYPRES, got knocked unconcious, burned in, and caused everyone to rush and get an AAD?
Tommy. And it was a low timer that hit him...
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
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QuoteSo you are willing to increase you risk if you have an AAD? That IS device dependency.
Not quite. Without the AAD, the risk would have been increased. With the AAD, the risk stays the same. By risk I mean risk of death, not risk of near-death experiences like CYPRES fires.
QuoteA better choice is not do the dive anyway....You see if you eliminate the chance of getting knocked out, you will not need the AAD to save you.
It's a personal decision though. What works for you may not work for everyone. With 14 years of the CYPRES being in use, have we really seen this being a problem?
QuoteActualy no...Gerrard jumps without a helmet alot.
And I bet the entire 8 way team could jump without a helmet just fine if they wanted to.
Fair enough, I've never seen them except on video where they always wear helmets.
QuoteTommy. And it was a low timer that hit him...
This is actually relevant to the thread. He had 3 people (4 if there was camera) to get to him and it didn't happen.
-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.
QuoteFriend or just a fellow skydiver I'd go til my AAD fired(hopefully). When it's YOUR time it's YOUR time
. Edit to add. while I was typing I was watching the movie " Don't Make Waves" w/ Tony Curtis 1967. He just fell out a plane and the chick chased and saved him (w/ no rig). Is there a God or just a coincidence. To fuckin funny
Are you aware that the man that filmed that scene in the movie was BoB Buquor, SCR & SCS, and that he died on that jump. Take it til you AAD fires and you just might get a chance to meet him.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
QuoteTake it til you AAD fires and you just might get a chance to meet him.
No Shit. Blows my mind. I mean, I'm a serious low timer with 55 jumps, but, low time, high time, no time, I can't even freaking imagine punching it down to sub 1000 for anyone.
Guess it's the only child in me, but when my ass is heading for 2K I'm getting shit open. Even then you've 12 seconds to live which should be enough to make anyones ass pucker just a bit.
This has been one hell of an entertaining thread though. Note to everyone, I have a cypres, and? whether it fires or not? If you see my ass spinning and heading for the planet, just nod and smile, knowing I went in doing my favorite thing in the world.
But for God's sake, stay the hell away from me, and save your own ass? K?
J
P.S. I believe the saying "You have no friends under 2K" is quite sensible.
It's a gas, gas, gas...
tbrown 26
QuoteQuoteYes your grace. A thousand pardons, your grace, my eyes are opened and even now I am spanking my unworthy bottom.
Okay pal, here it is in plain English. (Lots of plain english deleted)
(I know I'll get in deep shit with Sangiro for this, but Jesus Christ, does this guy OWN these forums ?)
Sangiro does indeed own these forums.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
Quote(I know I'll get in deep shit with Sangiro for this, but Jesus Christ, does this guy OWN these forums ?)
Nope, but you just allowed him to own you....... chill....
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Ron 7
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Yes your grace. A thousand pardons, your grace, my eyes are opened and even now I am spanking my unworthy bottom.
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No reason to be a smart ass.
Maybe you don't get it..and thats fine.
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Okay pal, here it is in plain English. You're a bully and I'm calling your bluff.
I do not like being asked "now do you understand ?' by some ASSHOLE who I happen to disagree with. No Ron, I don't read every word of your lengthy screeds, they're repititious and incomprhensible after a while. All I need to remember is to agree with Ron Thought. I don't care how many jumps you have, this is a Forum, and if you can't to.lerate dissent, then get out.
For the rest of you, Ron is always right, we are always wrong. Ron should have his own page in these Forums; the Ron Page. Shove it Ron.
(I know I'll get in deep shit with Sangiro for this, but Jesus Christ, does this guy OWN these forums ?)
Man who pissed in your corn flakes?
QuoteOkay pal, here it is in plain English. You're a bully and I'm calling your bluff.
And here it is in plain english....When I had 600 jumps I too thought I knew it all. I didn't. I am willing to bet you don't either.
You are entitled to an opinion...But your opinion means nothing to me.
QuoteI do not like being asked "now do you understand ?' by some ASSHOLE who I happen to disagree with
Geeze sorry I asked if you understood my point....How stupid of me to ask if the message I was sending was being recieved in the manner I sent it.
They have these pills called Prozac...Might want to be someting to look into.
QuoteNo Ron, I don't read every word of your lengthy screeds, they're repititious and incomprhensible after a while.
Well, this could be the problem right there...You disagree with me, but you don't bother to READ them.
QuoteAll I need to remember is to agree with Ron Thought. I don't care how many jumps you have, this is a Forum, and if you can't to.lerate dissent, then get out
You are the only guy calling people an ASSHOLE...I was trying to get you to understand my point, and YOU started caling me names.
Now WHO has the problem here with people who don't agree with them?
QuoteFor the rest of you, Ron is always right, we are always wrong. Ron should have his own page in these Forums; the Ron Page. Shove it Ron.
Who said I am always right? I will say I have 5.5 times the experience you have. Thats 5.5 jumps for every jump you have ever done. I also have a few years on you....I also was jumping BEFORE the CYPRES was popular. So I know BOTH sides of the issue. Hell I have more than your total jumps without one.
You are free to have an opinion...But so am I. I am sorry you got all pissy when I asked if you understood my argument.
Again check into the Prozac thing.....My opinion is you need it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
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So you are willing to increase you risk if you have an AAD? That IS device dependency.
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Not quite. Without the AAD, the risk would have been increased. With the AAD, the risk stays the same. By risk I mean risk of death, not risk of near-death experiences like CYPRES fires.
Let me try another tact here:
Which is safer?:
1. Going on a dive that has a higher chance of knocking you out, but wearing an AAD.
2. Not going on a dive that has a higher chance of knocking you out without an AAD.
And for sake of showing my point:
3. Not going on a dive that has a higher chance of knocking you out AND having an AAD.
You see the first step in saftey is not the cool toys...It is making good choices.
I and others feel that this part of making a safe jump has become less important as newer folks have grown up under the saftey umbrella of a good AAD. Today it is not uncommon for people to make marginal choices that would not EVER have been made 12 years ago.
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A better choice is not do the dive anyway....You see if you eliminate the chance of getting knocked out, you will not need the AAD to save you.
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It's a personal decision though. What works for you may not work for everyone. With 14 years of the CYPRES being in use, have we really seen this being a problem?
My opinion, YES. I have seen and heard people say "It's OK, I have an AAD", "Thats why I have an AAD", "My AAD will save me if I fuck up".
I also know a girl that has had TWO fires..Yet she told me "I am a safe skydiver."
Her reason for thinking she was a safe jumper? "I am a safe skydiver cause I bought an AAD".
Now I see that as she is NOT a safe jumper, but I am glad she is alive...But she is NOT safe.
QuoteFair enough, I've never seen them except on video where they always wear helmets.
Airspeed greatest hits he does several 4 ways without a helmet.
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Tommy. And it was a low timer that hit him...
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This is actually relevant to the thread. He had 3 people (4 if there was camera) to get to him and it didn't happen.
The rest of the load was low timers...Ironicly the only guy that could have saved him on that dive....was him. The other three would not have been able to pull it off.
This concept always pisses people off.
But saftey is making good choices, not adding toys. You don't pack your main like shit just because you have a reserve do you?
Why go on dives where you might need an AAD just cause you have one?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
goose491 0
Hey Ron why don't you just create a link to posts of yours in previous threads? It'll save you a lot of effort. It'll sorta be like the 'way-back' machine. You'll not have to waste time typing the same tired old thing over and over again. Instead, each time you see "AAD" or "CYPRES" typed somewhere in a thread, you'd simply post your link, sit back, and watch people get aggravated with you.
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
Ron 7
QuoteHey Ron why don't you just create a link to posts of yours in previous threads? It'll save you a lot of effort. It'll sorta be like the 'way-back' machine. You'll not have to waste time typing the same tired old thing over and over again. Instead, each time you see "AAD" or "CYPRES" typed somewhere in a thread, you'd simply post your link, sit back, and watch people get aggravated with you.
That would take out the "personal" touch that you know and love so much.
Besides its my time to waste ya know
I ahve a dream that one day people will listen...I'd like to be there when that happens....ya know majic moment and all.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
goose491 0
QuoteHardeck for my unconcious falling friend (who does not have a CYPRES): 1000ft.
No ofense, but you have no idea how you will react. Also, it is very easy to go lower than planned while trying to do something. You really think you can tell when you are at 1000 feet while trying to save a buddies life?
I'll not take offense because I know better. This is the very reason for this thread.
True, no idea how I'll react. (But you do don't you? Mister "I'll take it to CYPRES fire".. Mister "I'll burn in for a couple friends").
Well, in this one particular scenario, I'm already lower than planned. Much lower... because 'planned' was prolly 3500 or 3000. I say I'd go to 1000ft for my buddy. Can I tell when 1000ft while busy trying to save him? Well, you can be certain I'm gonna know when I pass two grand.. and I've got my third audible warning set for 1500ft. If you read an earlier post of mine, I said I'd be pulling around when this warning stopped sounding.
QuoteThats only 6 seconds from impact...Not much room for error.
And it's even less seconds to CYPRES fire. Good thing I'm planning on beating it. So think I'm gonna miss my mark? Not realise when I'm at a grand? All I'm advocating is it's better to have an altitude in mind then it is to simply fall and wait (and hope) for the AAD to fire.
QuoteAnd yes for two people I can think of I would chase them as far as I could...It is one case where I would hope my CYPRES did work.
If you would chase them (with a CYPRES) and not deploy yourself, but you wouldn't do the same without a CYPRES, then you are showing that you are AAD dependant and that you are accepting a level of risk you would not accept without this "toy" of yours.
bwahahaaa! Just kidding.
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
QuoteYou are entitled to an opinion...But your opinion means nothing to me.
And here is the real issue. Why should he listen to you if you extend no respect to him? This isn't a conversation, it would be a talking down or a lecture. Respect is a two way street and you will never get it if you don't give it.
I've been coached by Airspeed, the FlyBoyz, and Alchemy. I've also gone out and had a few drinks with all of them and talked skydiving, et all with them. All of them have medals, years of experience, jumps, and buried more friends than you have. I've yet to see them ever offer such contempt or disrespect towards anyone in this sport that challenged them on their opinions. There is a reason why they are seeked out and requested to help others - because they know how to.
You may have the knowledge but because of how you deliver it, no one really listens anymore. There is an old cliche "What you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear a word you are saying."
Reginald 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteHow many times have you been in a situation where your decision on what to do could mean your life? Probably not many.
222 at last count.
How many times have you made this decision under 1000 feet. If you can't see the difference between making the dicision to pull and deciding, in a split sec., on an action that can cost you your life, buy a bowling ball.
Dude, get a grip...did you see the
Please....
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP
Ron 7
QuoteWell, in this one particular scenario, I'm already lower than planned. Much lower... because 'planned' was prolly 3500 or 3000. I say I'd go to 1000ft for my buddy. Can I tell when 1000ft while busy trying to save him? Well, you can be certain I'm gonna know when I pass two grand.. and I've got my third audible warning set for 1500ft. If you read an earlier post of mine, I said I'd be pulling around when this warning stopped sounding.
Sounds like you at least have a plan...AND a way to know when its time to give up. Not bad.
But you do realize that while you are chasing your buddy (Who most likley will NOT be stable) will be falling faster than 5-6 seconds per thousand feet?
And you have to not only match that, but go faster to catch him?
(Anyone know how fast a spinning back flyer falls?)
OK so how long does your audible sound? If you don't know this, then you can't say you will be at 1,000 feet. Does it sound for 3 seconds? 4? 5?
(I to be honest don't know how long mine is...Plus I just got a Neptune and have not even heard the third alarm on it yet)
You need to know that. Its the difference between 1,000 feet, and 648 feet.
How long does it take for you to look, grab, pull your reserve? Remember its not a natural act for you since you may have done it once or twice before.
(I have played around with my reserve...2-3 seconds to look at it, grab it and pull it. So thats 352-528 feet after I decide to pull it. IF I am stable.)
So while you do have a plan, and EVEN a warning (Which I am surprized no one mentioned that yet, I was waiting for it.....Good thinking.)
So, do this next time you jump...Or someone else do it and let us know.
Have someone fall on their back. Not big, but in a knocked out body position...And lets record the speed/time per thousand feet.
On a dive practice a reserve pull while flat dumb and happy...Get it on video to time it.
Time different third alarms by different audibles.
Using this data we can see what the facts are...And then you can use FACTS to make a choice, not noble thoughts.
Off the top of my head I'd guess:
Back fliers will fall 220-240fps so about 4.0-4.5 seconds per thousand feet.
Reserve pull about 2-3 seconds.
Audible about 3 seconds.
I would be VERY interested in the real numbers.
But using these numbers:
1500 feet the alarm goes off for three seconds.
You are traveling at 230 FPS. 3 X 230 = 690 feet. That alone puts you at 810 feet AGL. 190 feet BELOW your plan.
You look grab pull 2.5 seconds 575 feet. 810-575 = 235 feet. Your reserve MIGHT open in time.
Thats using the medium numbers....It could be as much as:
400 feet (3 seconds at 220 plus 2 seconds for a reserve pull).
Or as little as:
60 feet ( 3 seconds at 240 and a 3 second reserve pull.)
At the bottom of the range you will NOT survive.
In the middle you MIGHT survive...Unless you are over 100 foot trees.
At the top of the range, you most likley will survive.
Now that you have some numbers...does it still sound like a good idea to take it to 1,000 feet?
But please, someone time this stuff and lets REALLY settle this.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
QuoteAnd here is the real issue. Why should he listen to you if you extend no respect to him? This isn't a conversation, it would be a talking down or a lecture. Respect is a two way street and you will never get it if you don't give it.
I've been coached by Airspeed, the FlyBoyz, and Alchemy. I've also gone out and had a few drinks with all of them and talked skydiving, et all with them. All of them have medals, years of experience, jumps, and buried more friends than you have. I've yet to see them ever offer such contempt or disrespect towards anyone in this sport that challenged them on their opinions. There is a reason why they are seeked out and requested to help others - because they know how to.
You may have the knowledge but because of how you deliver it, no one really listens anymore. There is an old cliche "What you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear a word you are saying."
How do you think any of those guys would respond to a guy that said this to them:
QuoteOkay pal, here it is in plain English. You're a bully and I'm calling your bluff.
I do not like being asked "now do you understand ?' by some ASSHOLE who I happen to disagree with. No Ron, I don't read every word of your lengthy screeds, they're repititious and incomprhensible after a while. All I need to remember is to agree with Ron Thought. I don't care how many jumps you have, this is a Forum, and if you can't to.lerate dissent, then get out.
For the rest of you, Ron is always right, we are always wrong. Ron should have his own page in these Forums; the Ron Page. Shove it Ron.
BTW the quote is:
"Who you are speaks so loudly, I cannot hear a word you are saying."—Emerson
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteHow do you think any of those guys would respond to a guy that said this to them:
I don't think they would ever hear that response. People in this sport continue to hit up them up for help and advice all the time - I'm certain they hear plenty of stupid questions and I have seen them argue their point. They save more lives and make people safe because they listen and talk to the person - they give them the respect they deserve no matter how bad the question may be.
No reason to be a smart ass.
Maybe you don't get it..and thats fine.
I just think its stupid to use a device to replace common sense.
Many people don't see that as a problem....Of course, I see that as a problem as well.
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