D22369 0 #76 September 3, 2004 I just hope for all of you thrill seekers and heroes going below 2K *** to address that, where did you get thrill seeker? I just stated that "I" have several people that I consider important enough to chase lower than 2k, I never said it was intellegent, and its not like we would be turning points to impress the chicks. I never once tried to talk you or anyone into doing it, I just posted the question: how low will you go? RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #77 September 3, 2004 BTW....all of those that have said they would go after someone....Whats your normal pull altitude, and whats the lowest you have pulledQuote normal 2500 lowest main 1600 Lowest reserve 1200 Cmon Ron, you sound like we are all going to go out and try this....... hopefully we will not ever be in the postion to feel we need to..... and ....... your sitting on the fence....... (no offence) but you bash us, we are just willing to risk ourselves while adding in quotes that show that you would indeed be one of the many who would go extremely low to save one of your friends Me? Well I'd only go after 2 people that I can think of....And dying trying to save them would be worth it for me. --->your quote I am very aware of the risks involved. I will accept them I will never advocate that anyone else tries this. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #78 September 3, 2004 QuoteCmon Ron, you sound like we are all going to go out and try this....... hopefully we will not ever be in the postion to feel we need to..... Yes, I do think that most of these people saying they would try it will try it if they get the chance. You don't have time to think that much in this sport...So the choices you make now while sitting on the ground are the ones you will do in that situation. Quoteand ....... your sitting on the fence....... (no offence) but you bash us, we are just willing to risk ourselves while adding in quotes that show that you would indeed be one of the many who would go extremely low to save one of your friends Yep, I also make no bones about the fact I am willing to die trying to save them. I don't pretend that I will be so skilled as to be able to catch them, deploy them, and save my own life before we hit. That is the big difference. You have folks on here saying they will chase anyone. Noble, but foolish. You also have guys on here with 100 jumps saying they will do it...Again Noble, but foolish. You have guys that never trained this type of situation, but have seen it in movies and plan to try it live when the costs are life and death. Noble, but foolish. QuoteI am very aware of the risks involved. I will accept them I will never advocate that anyone else tries this. And thats your right....But I don't want people who don't have enough experience to know its not a good idea to think its a good idea. Yes, there are two people I would chase till impact...But I also KNOW that I most likley will fail and will die. I don't pretend that I will be able to be a hero."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #79 September 3, 2004 Yep, I also make no bones about the fact I am willing to die trying to save them. I don't pretend that I will be so skilled as to be able to catch them, deploy them, and save my own life before we hit. Yes, there are two people I would chase till impact...But I also KNOW that I most likley will fail and will die. I don't pretend that I will be able to be a hero. *** It sounds like we are actually not in total disagreement, have a great weekend Ron, I will respond monday night to any and all replies on this, (I gotta go earn a tandem rating) RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #80 September 3, 2004 QuoteIt sounds like we are actually not in total disagreement True. I just don't want people to think they can do it, or plan on doing it without TRAINING for it. Those things we don't train we can't do. I would only ask the folks that think they will do this to try these exercises that have been written about. That way they know if they actually have a chance, or are just risking their lives for nothing. QuoteI gotta go earn a tandem rating Three things: 1. No drouge, no main. 2. You are there to give them the ride of their life...They are there to try and kill you. 3. You are willing to risk your life for their entertainment....Mikey Mouse will not do that for them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #81 September 3, 2004 I wouldn't chase anyone to impact. I would try to the point that I'm significantly increasing the risk to my life (ie tempting my AAD), but not to certain death - not for anyone I know. I'm also not saying I would actually "chase". But if I'm already docked on them and struggling to dump them out I might hang arround past 2k... I think that's quite different matter as it's not really reliant on my skill or lack thereof. I also don't see anyone here saying it isn't foolish; I think all agree it is - highly. The thing is we weren't asked if we thought it was foolish or a good idea, just if we would do it not withstanding the fact that it's foolish. Some of the people here are simply saying that they'd feel compelled by their concience to do something really stoopid... or they simply wouldn't be able to look themselves in the mirror again. It could be likened to running into a burning building to save a kiddy. Obviously stupid? Yeah, very. Should only be done with training and practice? Definately. Would some people stand by and say it’s too stupid and dangerous and we’re always told not to go back into a burning building? Of course they would. Would they be right? Yep – that’s the right thing to do, you wait for the FD. Would some people ignore how stupid it is, and ignore how unlikely they are to succeed and go back into the burning building and try to get the kid? Yep, there are probably some people who would. Would they be stupid? Yep. Would they know it? Yep, probably (or at least hopefully). You can apply it to all sorts of emergancy situations. You're NEVER supposed to enter the water to save someone drowning - you help from the bank. Some people do go in... and some people drown themselves as a result. Yes it's foolish, but some people just have to do it, for themselves as much as for the person they're trying to save. Are these people risking their lives for no good reason because they have no chance of success? I don't think so - they're risking their life so that they can look themselves in the eye... even if there's no chance of saving the person they've still saved their own sleep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acrojunky 0 #82 September 3, 2004 guys the real question is would you be able to live with yourself if you didn't even atempt to pull for them if such a situation happend was it there falt with not wearing a AAD yes but it's just as much my falt for if even anything not doing every thing i could. P.S you guys need to go to blockbuster and rent dropzone there is a seen in there when where a guy has a malfunction with his main and his budy cut's away nomader the alltitude and tracks to him and deploys his reserve for him the point is if people are in trouble you don't think you just help them trust me it's great to have people owing you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #83 September 3, 2004 QuoteAre these people risking their lives for no good reason because they have no chance of success? I don't think so Good points...But my main point is that most of the people who say they would try the hero swoop...Have no idea how little the chances are. Or how much added risk they create. I have had people get knocked senseless and start to tumble. Once of course myself and another guy went after one.....The guy we were chaseing came to...And deployed....We both almost hit him. He pulled at like 6 grand. He came to and he pulled...He didn't even flip back over, just tossed. Very scary. All I want these guys to do is if they think they are willing to risk going after someone...Then it is clearly worth training for it right? It will either give them the idea that it is a bad idea, or it will give them some training. Either solution is fine. Bravery is good....Being smart is better. Quoteeven if there's no chance of saving the person they've still saved their own sleep. You will still not be able to sleep."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #84 September 3, 2004 Quote...trust me it's great to have people owing you. Totally 1000% disagree. If this situation happened and by some God unforeseen miracle, I managed to save someone...it's not about them owing me at all. It's about a life saved about a parent not having to bury their child or a child not having to bury a parent or a loved one getting a little more time with their SO or a friend enjoying that friend being around just that much longer. Them owing me? NEVER!Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #85 September 3, 2004 QuoteYou will still not be able to sleep. True. True. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #86 September 3, 2004 QuoteGood points...But my main point is that most of the people who say they would try the hero swoop...Have no idea how little the chances are. Or how much added risk they create. === Most of the people that say they would swoop after someone at a low altitude wouldn't really do it anyway. As an AFF I with plenty of chase experience, I know how long it takes to catch people in less than optimum body position. That is why if I thought there was a chance I could catch them I'd like to believe I would. However, I wouldn't hammer into the ground for that person though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #87 September 3, 2004 My husband better not chase me down past 2000 ft otherwise if he dies with me he will have to spend an eternity of me bitching at him for doing something so stupid. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #88 September 3, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Until we are put in the situation, I doubt any of us can say what we would do, maybe what we think we would but until it happens you don't know. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So... if your child or Very Significant Other was clearly in distress just a few feet from you, you may actualy hesitate to help ? Many of these thread comments are not claiming what they could successfully do, it's also about what they would attempt to do. The former requires skill and experience, the later only requires courage (or foolishness). How many times have you been in a situation where your decision on what to do could mean your life? Probably not many. You can't say from the comfort of your computer what you would do until you are confronted with the choice. And that choice can change from day to day. One time the hero the next the goat. That is the real life reality of it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #89 September 3, 2004 QuoteThose things we don't train we can't do. Worst Statement Ever! It implies that nobody can do anything they haven't done a buch of times already. Surely you can see the irony. How 'bout we stick with "Practice makes perfect" ? QuoteI would only ask the folks that think they will do this to try these exercises that have been written about. We practice docking one another all the time! I would not suggest we start practicing pulling for one another. Okay, I'm being nit-picky and playing around a bit. But you know what Ron? You are the only one on here saying you'd go in for friends. Please don't go practicing this. But you're right. One thing that should be made clear is: This thread is about making youself aware... ala: "I have a harddeck... how low will I push it for a loved one?" It's not about boasting ala: "I can pull it off." Normal: 3000-3500ft Lowest: 1800 Hardeck: 1500ft Hardeck for my unconcious falling friend (who does not have a CYPRES): 1000ft. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #90 September 3, 2004 QuoteHow many times have you been in a situation where your decision on what to do could mean your life? Probably not many. 222 at last count. "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #91 September 3, 2004 QuoteHow many times have you been in a situation where your decision on what to do could mean your life? Probably not many. Almost 200 times now. You know they say this is the only sport where you commit suicide and then get the chance to save your own life? hehe. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #92 September 3, 2004 Quote222 at last count. Damn! Beat me to it! Alright all! It's that time on Friday before the long weekend! I'm out. Have a fun and Safe time all! Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #93 September 3, 2004 >Worst Statement Ever! It implies that nobody can do anything they > haven't done a buch of times already. That's generally true. If you don't train for doing something you'll generally screw it up. That's why we train for any unnatural skill, whether it's driving, skydiving, engineering, flying an airplane etc. I couldn't fly the first time I got in an airplane. If they had put me in a plane and said "Fly to Islip and come back" I would probably have died. Instead, I read a lot first, and then went flying with an instructor who, very gradually, introduced me to more and more aspects of flying. After enough training I was able to make that flight to Islip. > Surely you can see the irony. How 'bout we stick with "Practice makes perfect" ? Also true. If you want to try to 'save your friends' - practice doing just that. An AFF evaluator is a great person to teach you how to fly with someone, dock them and make sure they deploy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #94 September 3, 2004 For most people, assuming I had the skill to be of help? 2000' or so. For my father, brother, or girlfriend? Until my AAD fired. Call me foolhardy, but there are people I'll put everything on the line for.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #95 September 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteHow many times have you been in a situation where your decision on what to do could mean your life? Probably not many. 222 at last count. How many times have you made this decision under 1000 feet. If you can't see the difference between making the dicision to pull and deciding, in a split sec., on an action that can cost you your life, buy a bowling ball.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #96 September 4, 2004 From freefall - started deployment at 1500 From a chopper - got out at 1900 and pulled at 1200 (the cyrpes was off) and the protrack showed a sub 1000 deployment. Took a reserve as a main to terminal and dumped at 1500. After my malfunction I checked to see if I still had a cutter. Almost every big way jump or jumps at the WFFC have me starting my deployment at 2000. Yup, the ground comes up quick and gets scary._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #97 September 4, 2004 Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those things we don't train we can't do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worst Statement Ever! It implies that nobody can do anything they haven't done a buch of times already. Surely you can see the irony. How 'bout we stick with "Practice makes perfect" ? QuoteWe practice docking one another all the time! Thats called training But how many times have you docked on a upside down spinning person? Me in 3300 jumps...once. QuoteHardeck for my unconcious falling friend (who does not have a CYPRES): 1000ft. No ofense, but you have no idea how you will react. Also, it is very easy to go lower than planned while trying to do something. You really think you can tell when you are at 1000 feet while trying to save a buddies life? Thats only 6 seconds from impact...Not much room for error. And yes for two people I can think of I would chase them as far as I could...It is one case where I would hope my CYPRES did work."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshKat 0 #98 September 4, 2004 Probably same for me, hope I never have to find out! I really don't think it would make much difference whether it was a good friend or not, as to how hard I would try to catch them - it would just hurt more if I failed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #99 September 5, 2004 Ron, you're always talking about "dependency" on AAD's. I read a lot of your posts and have a high degree of respect for your opinions, save for the AAD issue. I don't think an intelligent decision to use an AAD equals "dependency". In the old days, the seventies, I made over 500 jumps without any AAD. We didn't think they were reliable, we thought they were potentially dangerous. We always used to say they were a good idea in principle, BUT.... Those were in the days before the Cypres settled the reliability issue. And those were the days when real people I knew went in because they never pulled, pulled too low, were knocked out, etc. Real people with hundreds, or even thousands of dives. They're dead. Bobo Bonadies is dead (and I used to know him in the old days). They're DEAD. Nowadays I jump with both a Cypres and a RSL. I'm not on fucking training wheels and I don't "depend" on them. My wife and kids might be depending on them, but I'm not. I just think it's nice to know that if I'm knocked out, something's going to save me, even if it does sully the "purity" of the sport. God willing I'll go through all my future years of jumping without ever having a Cypres fire. There are people who have retired their first Cypres after 12 years without it's firing once. That's the basic idea. I did say that anyone who's awake and conscious after a Cypres fire deserves a kick in the ass and a grounding to ponder their future in the sport. And I menat it. An AAD is not a toy of convenience, or a backup for the terminally lazy (and if you're THAT lazy, then something's gonna getcha no matter what...). As for the "yuppie" argument by the preceding gentleman, forgive me for not recalling your name, I am no yuppie. I was laid off from Boeing two years ago, have been getting along on half the pay, have a wife & two teenage kids and bought my rig with genuine U.S. plastic, which I'll be paying off for years to come. I am no fuckin' yuppie. But if I can afford it, anybody can. By the way, if you go to the Incidents column, there were two freeflyers at Cross Keys who weren't paying attention to their altitude. the first one was snapped out of it by his Cypres firing. He's alive. The other guy was a "real" skydiver, who elected not to have an AAD. He pulled his reserve, but too late. He's DEAD. So say what you want about "dependency". The living and the dead speak more eloquently than anything you or I can say. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #100 September 5, 2004 QuoteRon, you're always talking about "dependency" on AAD's. I read a lot of your posts and have a high degree of respect for your opinions, save for the AAD issue. I don't think an intelligent decision to use an AAD equals "dependency". You might not read my post completely. My issue is not with people using AAD's as a BACKUP. A device that they turn on and don't think about. My issue is with people who REQUIRE an AAD. Those that don't trust themselves enough and NEED one. These people don't take RESPONSIBILITY for saving themselves. If you have an AAD and go on jumps you would not do without an AAD...Then you are dependent and that is bad....If you would not do the jump without it....Why do that jump at all? If you are dependent on that device...That is bad. If you will do more dangerous things with it than you would not do without it...That is bad. If you have one, but still avoid dangerous jumps...Then thats good. But I have seen many new jumpers that will go do certain skydives only because they have AAD's... Thats bad. If you would not do the jump without an AAD...Don't do it with one. Now do you understand? If you must have an AAD to do that jump....That is a stupid jump, and don't do it. Thats dependency....and thats bad. And if you have an AAD fire and are NOT knocked out....You should quit jumping. You are on borrowed time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
