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D22369

How low would you go??

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ok, this is a thought that came to me from another thread where the instructor went waaay low after a student (girlfriend) and I said " he screwd the pooch"....... Because she had an AAD.......

but ... I was wondering......[:/] Keep in mind, This is a person you care about/respect...etc....all that mushy stuff

say you and your best friend were making a 2 way from 3500' and upon exit he/she struck their head on the horizontal stabilizer rendering them unconcious,

you know they dont have an AAD......

they are out for the count.....tumbling away from you.... They have 25 seconds of life left.......... Cant pull....gonna die....

Would you sit back and hope they came to??

or.....

How far into the basement would YOU go to save them??...... would you even go there???

I thought about just posting this question and not giving my answer because I figure I will need a nomex suit.... but screw it.....here goes... :o


I know which of my friends dont have a AAD..... and In this circumstance, knowing they do not have an AAD I wouldnt be adverse to chasing them to around 1000' I figure I would be able to tell if they were "coming around" and reaching for a handle and be able to avoid them..... My reserve takes around 400' at most to open, (I have used it enough to have a statistical base to measure it) I figure I would have at max 16-18seconds to get them pulled and open my reserve....

I can count on one hand and have a couple of extra fingers....the friends I have that I would go to the ends of the earth for - 3 of them skydive...... I dont figure I could live with the guilt of not giving them every second I could trying to save them..... I aint gonna go in with them, but I would give them every micro-second I could.

I would apologise about the broken ribs later....cause my dock is going to be extremely hard/fast and brutal... and no guarantees of whether they get the main or the reserve....It would be the one I could pull the fastest.

Is there a chance there would be 2 fatalities.....Yes, Would I ask them to pay for my reserve repack...yes, would I expect a enormous amount of beer......YES...

Please dont start the AAD debate again, that shoulda, woulda, coulda stuff........ this is a simple question.


How far would you go?

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Almost ditto.

I wouldn't ask for them to pay for my reserve re-pack. If they wanted to, I wouldn't protest too much, but it was my choice to go after them... it was my choice to use my reserve. (edited to add - unless it was something super dumb which knocked em out... then they're paying for the lot as well as my time at my usual buisness rate).

I wear an AAD so I'm pretty much forced to break off at about 1000ft and go to silver in the 1 second before it fired anyway.

They'd have to be a really good friend for me to go that low. If I didn't know them, but they're simply a fellow skydiver I'd follow down below 2k but toss at 1500 at the VERY latest but only because my main spanks the crap out of me anyway and I'm happy that the 2 out risk is minimal for me at that altitude.

Dumb shit, but we're talking about a real emergency situation. At least I'd be able to hold my head up high at their funeral if I failed.

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Dumb shit, but we're talking about a real emergency. At least I could hold my head up high at their funeral if I failed. ***

I figure most will flame this post, its nice to not be the only one who would do something this ....."not smart.." :P....
Thank you, I was feeling a bit....weirded out.....

Roy

>donning a 2nd set of nomex..<:)

--edited to add, my icarus sometimes takes 400' and sometimes takes 800' to open, I never know what its gonna do..... so the reserve is the only choice at that altitude.....
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Below 2000 ft I have no friends. ***

I can understand where your coming from, the self comes before all others......... but you would truly throw a good friend away after only 13 seconds of pursuit?? even though you could "somewhat safely" open later???

It would probably take around 2-3 seconds to realize that they were "out"......so 10 seconds to chase, catch, and pull...... brrrrrrr

cold man, cold......

but its a risk assesment situation........reward vs/risk
thank you for your input :)Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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"so 10 seconds to chase, catch, and pull...... brrrrrrr"

Your going to have to be good to be able to close, pin, locate (probably tumbling, probably back to earth attitude) friend's silver, and pull in 10 secs.
Your going to have to be very good.

That said, I would do everything in my power to mitigate such a situation (whilst keeping an eye on the groundrush), like you said, how could you live with yourself if you didn't at least give your best shot?
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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Oh, and one more stipulation: I'd have to be "just about there". I've not got the skills to reliably swoop someone, starting at 2k and finishing at 1.5k or 1k with enough certainty that I'd be able to do any good in time...

If I'd started out the door and were almost there by the time I passed through my hard deck, well I'd just have to try a little more...

If I've got my mate at 1400 and I'm struggling for the handle - so be it. If I'm still 30 ft away I'd have to question the point of risking myself when the chance of being able to help is by that point slim.

The addage "a hard deck is a hard deck is a hard deck" is there... but I chose my hard deck with a good margine for error and large comfort zone. I know the absolute minimum hard deck is somewhat lower than that and in a life or death situation I may well choose to eat into that buffer zone so that I may sleep at night.

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Your going to have to be good to be able to close, pin, locate (probably tumbling, probably back to earth attitude) friend's silver, ***


lol......at that time, anything that isnt his/her cutaway handle, or penis is gonna get pulled......anything goes for us at that time/that low..........its a shot....not a great one, but its still a chance...


Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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The addage "a hard deck is a hard deck is a hard deck" is there***

I hear ya, I figure I can catch and pin an unconcious person in about 6-10 seconds, but would be willing to keep trying deep in the beeps. but am not willing to die to do it...

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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May be I'm not experienced enough but there is some difficulty in appreciating the height at that range. I mean, one usually sets the audible(s) at higher altitudes so visual (altimeter and ground check) and counting the seconds are the only possibilities. I sincerely doubt that in that special and veeery stressful situation when one is trying to save a friends life by increasing our own risk one can accurately set a hard deck and follow it. Between 2000 and 1000 feet it's 5 seconds... and in checking ground or altimeter you lose precious time. I would set my mark at 2000, give one more try and open the reserve. But only for a very good friend. And if we both make it I would make him (or her) pay me the repack and also the value of an AAD in beer (that's a lot of beers!)



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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Noble...but foolish.

I see you don't have an AFF rating.

Try this exercise:

Have a buddy go out at altitude and go limp...Let him just fall.

See if you can catch him....If you do catch him (You very well might) act like you are deploying him. Use a piece of PVC cut to about the size of a hacky, tied with a pull up cord to his lateral webbing.

If you do get to him, and manage to pull him out, then simulate a reserve pull for yourself.

Once that is all done look at your altimeter. If it took less than 2 thousand feet (12 seconds)...You really are very good.

I would bet you can't do it....I don't know many that could, and infact I don't think I could do it either.

Add in that you have not practiced this trick, and that you can't do things well that are not practiced.

Like I said noble....But try this and let us know how it went.

That being said.....There are a few I would chase till blood filled my goggles
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I have attended the AFF Pre course, the only thing that has prevented me from getting my rating is $$$$$$$$$ 600$ for the course, plus camera, slots, and a week off work.......adds up very fast.... easily a 2-3K course....... Like I said, I think I can catch an unconcious person........ I hope to never be in a situation where I have to try.

but you call it foolish..... how ?? you trust your reserve every jump you make.....whether you use it or not......your main is for fun, it gets serious when you have to use your reserve....... personally I think my friends are worth going straight to silver....

I have enjoyed reading your posts Ron, and for the most part have agreed with you, but on this one, we agree to disagree...

Roy

>>edited to add......I dont think any of my friends are going to let me do warp 9 into them just to prove I can do it....... B|
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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I don't have any ratings nor have I practiced something like this. I'd like to say that I'd go as low as I could without jeopardizing my life, however, in an actual situation like that, I don't think my skillset is good enough to be able to get to someone although I'd try my hardest. Hopefully, I'll never be in a situation where I have to find out.
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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but you call it foolish..... how ?? you trust your reserve every jump you make.....whether you use it or not......your main is for fun, it gets serious when you have to use your reserve....... personally I think my friends are worth going straight to silver....



It has nothing to do with the reserve....

It has to do with the amount of time it will take you to:

1. See a problem.
2. Start moving in the correct direction.
3. Catch them while they are spinning out of control.
4. Find and pull a canopy for them.
5. Save your own life.

It took longer for me to type that than you have from two grand.

You say your reserve will open in 400 feet right? OK so you have to pull it at around 500 to start it correct?

2,000 feet = 12 seconds WHILE STABLE...A knocked out person WILL NOT be stable and will be dropping faster than normal. But hey, I am a generous guy so I'll give you 12 seconds.

You really think you can find them, get to them, catch them, pull them out, and pull yourself out in 9 seconds? (Remember you need the last 3 seconds to pull and deploy lest you land a container only).

I don't think most experienced AFF "I's" could do it in 9 seconds.

Not a slam on you, but think about it.

Quote

I dont think any of my friends are going to let me do warp 9 into them just to prove I can do it



So don't do warp nine. BTW you don't want to try and even emergency swoop anyone at warp nine...If you miss you blew your one shot.

Really try it and let the group know how many thousands of feet it took.

You can even let the guy fly stable on his back if you want.

If you do it in less than 12 seconds...I think you are VERY good and should get your AFF.

But like I said I have a few folks I would follow to the dirt. (In truth I would follow till my CYPRES yanked me out...Except right now when its off getting checked).

But I really think you are under estimating the amount of time it will take to get there, and perform all the tasks you need to do.

Any AFF rated folks wanna tell a story about a spinner that they had to catch and tell us how long it took?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I don't have any ratings ***

none needed, just good skills and a good heart


I'd try my hardest***

I want friends like you...... win or lose, you try
Amen


its all any of us could do.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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back the train up Ron..... I didnt say anything about pulling at 500' I said I would chase them to around 1000'.......+ or - a bit.....

You say your reserve will open in 400 feet right? OK so you have to pull it at around 500 to start it correct
Quote




1. See a problem***

I think I can see and Identify a problem within 3 seconds / 500 feet


2,000 feet = 12 seconds WHILE STABLE...A knocked out person WILL NOT be stable and will be dropping faster than normal



You really think you can find them, get to them, catch them, pull them out, and pull yourself out in 9 seconds?
Quote


Ron, even allowing for the 3 seconds that it takes to realise my friend is in trouble, 9 seconds puts us at around 2000'..........
freefall times show that from exit at 3500' to impact is 25 seconds, if you will note that I put in my original post that I would have 16-18 seconds to have them pulled and yank my reserve. I am leaving myself a bare minimum of time that I think I can do what I think I can do....Perhaps your right, I may have a few less seconds to act than I think.....

I don't think most experienced AFF "I's" could do it in 9 seconds.
Not a slam on you, but think about it.***

Ron, I dont take it as a slam, you are just pointing out the perceived flaws in my plan......B|


So don't do warp nine. BTW you don't want to try and even emergency swoop anyone at warp nine...If you miss you blew your one shot.***

but at a low altitude, one shot is all you may have, or else it may become two fatalities.......


Any AFF rated folks wanna tell a story about a spinner that they had to catch and tell us how long it took



How bout a Static line/ IAD instructor story.....

I had a larger than normal student in a full plane, Cessna 206 with the cargo door. he was around 250 lbs, doing his first hopnpop Jumping a converted tandem rig......and I tried to get the dzo to put the aircraft up with only 5 jumpers onboard..... (he was freaking big), but with 6 of us up we went up.... he couldnt get situated in the door comfortably and when he left he struck the door with the container.......... I cant explain the feeling I got at that moment, I knew without a shadow of a doubt that he wasnt gonna pull, he went fetal big time....so out the door I went, he rolled over at 3000' and pulled, (we left at 4500") I was next to him (5' away head down) and closing when he rolled over, I stopped approaching and just watched him deploy very nicely....very stable..... but I WAS within striking distance.... he had only a few more seconds to save his own life before I did it for him......(not the most lucid moment of my jumping career) He did have a AAD ...... but it didnt even dawn upon me .....screwed the pooch I did.....:$


Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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back the train up Ron..... I didnt say anything about pulling at 500' I said I would chase them to around 1000'.......+ or - a bit.....



OK but lets point out afew more issues.

Quote

I think I can see and Identify a problem within 3 seconds / 500 feet



OK 3 seconds/ 500 feet gone.

Quote

freefall times show that from exit at 3500' to impact is 25 seconds



Thats not from Terminal...thats from starting at zero....Once you are at Terminal you go through 1,000 feet about every 6 seconds while stable.

He will not be stable.

So 3,500 feet = 21 seconds. Plus you have to take 3 seconds out for reserve deployment...So 18 seconds MAX.

You already gave 3 seconds up to see the problem....

So 15 seconds.

In 15 seconds you would have to get to them, grab them, deploy them, and save your own life.

Quote

out the door I went, he rolled over at 3000' and pulled, (we left at 4500") I was next to him (5' away head down) and closing when he rolled over



Thats 1,500 feet or 9 seconds it took for you to reach him. If you had started at 3500 feet (21 seconds) and managed to do the same great swoop...You would be at 2 grand still 5 feet away. He would also not be stable.

(Nice swoop however)

Lets assume you could grab him (What 3 seconds?) find the reserve and pull it another 3 seconds....And then deploy your own reserve...3 more seconds.

If everything went GREAT...You would have pulled your reserve at 500 feet...3 seconds till impact.

Please, try it this weekend. Have a buddy flip on his back out the door and go after him. Mark your start altitude and your finish altitude.

And please let us know.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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My hard deck is 2,000 feet. Period.

If you can really chase to 1,000 feet, recognize that you are at 1,000 feet, quite chasing, reach for and deploy your reserve, and then get a canopy above you before impact, I'd be impressed.

There are a few glitches in your program. First, your fall rate between 2,000 and 1,000 will be faster than terminal so you will have less time than you imagine. Your body position will be somewhat contorted as you struggle to grab and pull for your friend, and you will probably have at least a slight bit of trouble getting back to your own pull position. Your sense of time and altitude will be distorted. Your altimeter generally lags a bit, so even if you really plan to break off at 1,000, you will be breaking off lower, and with that, it will take you at least a fraction of a second to recognize that your altimeter even says 1,000 feet. Your natural tendency is to pull your main, so it will cost you a second of "reprogramming" to actually select your reserve.

On the off chance that you actually dump your friend at 1,000, you still need to pull for yourself and NOT entangle with the other parachute. So, after dumping your friend at 1,000 you need at least a second or two of separation, and that drives you even lower.

Now, with all those issues understood let's step back to the world of routine skydives. Do you really believe you have the mental ability to recognize and evaluate all those issues when a dive goes bad without warning? Do you think you could control all those variables and your emotions when facing the contrasting threats of ground rush and a potentially dead friend, and actually make well reasoned decisions in the heat of the moment? Remember, these issues don't generally happen when we expect them, and we can rarely focus on building and executing a plan, but rather they spring up when least expected.

I'm a strong believer in sticking with 2,000 feet as the hard deck. My friends are in command of their own destiny below that. They either stacked the deck in their favor with a Cypres, or they elected to take the added risk of jumping without one. Instead of building a plan that puts us both at risk, I'd rather encourage my friends to get AAD's, then let their futures be based on today's decisions.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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well to be realistic, i have thought about this sort of situation lots, i am sure we all have, lots of scenarios go through your head when sleeping in on a raining weekend.
With all my heart, i dont care who it is, i would really like to think i would, but being realistic, i would put some effort into this but really doubt that i have the experience to pull it off, even with the experience i doubt that i could do it considering they will probably be in a viloent uncontrollable spin/tumble. I would like to think i would go as far as 700 feet with an aad to try saving them but no that i would only go to 1500 feet max. @ reasons i would only go this low is because, i want to pull my main at 1500 minimum, cause i still want the chance to be able to pull out a reserve if i need it and also think that if i was chasing someone i would be pulling at a high speed when i reach 1500ft, so it could be very likely that i would need a reserve after this. Other reason is in this situation you would be shaking in your boots with all the varibles going on, i.e. ditter screaming in your ear, watching a mate going in, high speed at low alttitude, out of comfort zone, not being able to keep an eye on your alti and your ditter is already bailing. So realisticaly, i doubt i could do much that can help below 2000ft. i wish i could though.
This is my opinion and you have balls putting a post like this up.
blue skies.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Hey Ron,
Even without looking at the other replies, I can honestly say, I would go as low, as hard, as fast, as I could to save/get them a canopy no matter how low they where. Now, to make this even more interesting, lets say you where just "Jumping with this person" and the same thing happened. What would you do? Me, the same answer.
Great question and it brings forth the true character of the person.
Have a great day.
Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

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I watched two friends collide while docking once..one went fetal on his back after the hit. It took me a second or two to realize the situation, then another second to shake the grips on me....he was falling fast on his back but it only took me and two others a couple of seconds to get to him. By the time we got there he had flipped over and gave us a thumbs up. I have no idea how much total time or altittude we had burned up, but since I was diving down to him I could see how much time I had to play with.

You might be surprised how stable someone is when on their back falling away from you...will that happen each time? Prob not, but I know I would chase my friends until I realized I may not be able to save mine. Depending on who the person is, depends on how low I will suck it down. Some people I would chase until it was too late...I just couldn't live knowing I didn't try everything and then regret it the rest of my life. Yes, there are some people that mean that much to me.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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