[Billvon] Static line - student in tow.

[Erroll 49]

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>Did i read that right ? is it referring to a student still hanging under the aircraft ?

Yes. When I first became a SL-JM, the procedure was that if you had a student in tow, they put both their hands on their head to acknowledge that they were prepared, and then you cut the static line. They then opened their reserve. If they didn't do this, it was assumed they were unconscious, and you were supposed to shimmy down the static line, cut the line and then pull their reserve - a procedure I was always dubious about. That's since been replaced with "just cut the static line" since AAD reliance is pretty common nowadays.

Personally I made the decision that if that ever happened I was cutting the SL and diving out after him. The idea that he might not notice he was being towed behind a plane, and thus decide to open his reserve while the static line was still wrapped around his leg was not pleasant to contemplate. When I first decided that, I figured I had a perhaps 5% chance of getting to him before 2000 feet. Nowadays with AFF training I figure that's gone up to about 25% before I have to open my parachute and give him over to Helmut.

We were taught the same 'hands on helmet' procedure. However, we were told that once the static line was cut we were on our own. The risk of the student pulling his reserve or the AAD (or AOD in those days) firing was too big for the J/M to follow the student and try and pull for him. Also, S/L's are despatched from 3500 which does not leave the J/M a lot of altitude to work with.

What is the 'official' procedure these days?

[TrickyDicky 0]

I know definatly at the DZ where I trained and my now home DZ that the "hands on head" procedure and shimmying down the SL and Pulling reserve as you cut the SL is still taught. I think its the same at most UK dzs as they all primarily get S/L students.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[riggerrob 558]

There is only one documented case of a jumpmaster sliding down a static-line and cutting free a student. The hero was Rhodesian SAS and the accident happened on a British DZ a long time ago. Hint: Rhodesia ceased to be a country in 1980.

Static-lines were still in fashion - in Canada - when I became an instructor back in 1982. We discussed procedures for sliding down static-lines, but then read too many reports of instructors dropping knives etc.
We concluded that just cutting the static-line was the quickest and safest.

That is one of the reasons that static-lines disappeared from most Canadian DZs 20 years ago (replaced by IAD).

[BIGUN 1,051]

The roots of skydiving instruction come from the military. Everyone who's been through Airborne School has been taught this is the procedure.

Like BillVon, I totally disagree with the hands on head scenario; did not agree with it in the military and don't agree with it in skydiving.

Here's the reason: How many people on static-line can really SENSE the difference between being towed behind an A/C and/or freefall. I doubt the student with one or two S/L "skydives" can or that a military candy jumper can.

What they can SENSE is that magic shit didn't happen in four seconds and their first reaction is going to be to do their EP's. As a towed jumper, cutting away ain't going to do squat. The next step is to pull the reserve - this is going to be bad.

I too, am going to whip out the blade and cut the S/L.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Depends on the definition of "documented". There's a first hand account of someone sliding down the SL on this site in the Scary Stories from the Old Days thread (IIRC). Unless of course it's the same guy...

The DZ that trained me had this procedure: You were to put your hands on your head so they knew you weren't about to dump out your reserve. They showed you a big f*%king knife carried on the plane. Then they cut you away. It was then up to you to do the rest. If you were unconcious or not able to pull for whatever reason then you have a cypres. If it doesn't work - well, you pay's your money you take's your chance.

I remember that this rule had only been adopted since they fitted SL gear with Cypres's - before that it was a carabina on the SL and the JM had to do it the hard way.

Edit: found the account. It was Airtwardo, here:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=793766#793766

[Erroll 49]

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The roots of skydiving instruction come from the military. Everyone who's been through Airborne School has been taught this is the procedure.

Did this procedure apply during mass drops too; out the side of a Dak for example? Could cause a bit of a traffic jam with 50 paratroopers doing the stomping march to exit!

[Airman1270 0]

...How many people on static-line can really SENSE the difference between being towed behind an A/C and/or freefall. I doubt the student with one or two S/L "skydives" can or that a military candy jumper can...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

A similar incident occurred in the mid-1980's in New York, I believe it was at Paul Gath's DZ in Arcade. The story was published in PARACHUTIST. The jumpmaster said he pondered whether to chop the line; meanwhile, the first-jump student was looking at him with her hand on the reserve, tapping her helmet as she'd been trained to do (and presumably wondering why he wasn't cutting her loose.) He finally did. The harness had shifted somewhat and she had trouble pulling. The AAD fired around 1000'.

Remember the photo in Dan Poynter's book showing the towed student & the Cessna descending under a 24' round chest-mount reserve?

("Military candy jumper..."?)

Jon

[BIGUN 1,051]

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("Military candy jumper..."?)

Oops, more coffee.... cherry jumper

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,051]

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Could cause a bit of a traffic jam with 50 paratroopers doing the stomping march to exit!

One eye on everything and one eye on the S/L's - if one goes to the bottom of the door and stays, you have a towed jumper. Stop the stick, assess, determine approriate action, procede with appropriate action.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[flyangel2 2]

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Also, S/L's are despatched from 3500 which does not leave the J/M a lot of altitude to work with.

I'm trying to think if there is a reason why the plane couldn't climb to a higher altitude. This would then allow more working time for the JM. That is if the student knows what is going on. Wonder if there is a way the JM could communicate what is going on to the student in tow.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Praetorian 1]

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Could cause a bit of a traffic jam with 50 paratroopers doing the stomping march to exit!

UM.. aren't military jumps conducted from considerably lower then 3500ft??

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,392]

>I'm trying to think if there is a reason why the plane couldn't climb to a higher altitude.

1. Student might panic after a short time and open the reserve - this could lead to the destruction of the aircraft and death of the student.

2. It doesn't take long for serious injury to occur if you have a static line wrapped around your arm, leg etc.

3. With the extra drag it's gonna be a really long climb.

[katiebear21 0]

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I too, am going to whip out the blade and cut the S/L.

Must interject here because I'm probably one of the few living candy military jumpers who's actually been towed (although not by my s/l).

I had 33 or so military jumps at the time which is actually fairly experienced. I was also a jumpmaster, pulling assistant jm duties on the bird the night it happened.

I will tell you that the 6" knife strapped to my boot that evening could have been 2 miles away. Had I been hung long enough to think about it, I might have been able to get to it but in a c-130 going 125 knots the air pressure was so intense that moving wasn't as easy as they make it out to be in the movies. Granted, civilian skydiving is a bit lighter and the plane is a bit slower so it might be more "doable".

Luckily, my safety responded correctly and I wasn't being towed by my static line; rather, I was being towed by my combat gear. Following the emergency procedure that says keep your chin tucked and your hand on your reserve saved my life. It comes rather naturally the way they drill it in our heads. Had I not felt the opening shock of my main I still would have had time to pull my reserve (even at 800 ft).

For static line, the first EP is to attempt to pull the jumper back in which again is easier in the military with the use of the static line retrieval system. Not as easy with skydiving but you better be damn sure that skydiver's conscious before cutting him away.

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

[skytash 0]

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Also, S/L's are despatched from 3500 which does not leave the J/M a lot of altitude to work with.

I'm trying to think if there is a reason why the plane couldn't climb to a higher altitude. This would then allow more working time for the JM. That is if the student knows what is going on. Wonder if there is a way the JM could communicate what is going on to the student in tow.

I remember being on a plane on one of my early freefalls, the others were first timers and an instructor. No three out of the plane had a hang-up. He put his hands on his head, the plane circled and climbed higher so that the instructor could cut the SL over the spot after which the student pulled his reserve. The others on the plane were asking whether they would jump now (the plane started decending) and having seen the face of the instructor I told them that I thought not.

I had been around long enough to know that 'these things don't happen' and was rather freaked out (as the instructor was). For them it was just another malfunction they had learned about and had been dealt with.

Hats off the the instructor too (Dougie Peacock). The DZ had three planes but only two of the big hook knives. Dougie checked the plane before the jump and noticed there was no knife on board and asked the pilot to radio for someone to bring one over which they did. Little did he know that it would be necessary.

tash

btw this was in around 1997 or 1998.

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[Ron 7]

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UM.. aren't military jumps conducted from considerably lower then 3500ft??
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

Training jumps in Airborne school are at 1200 feet.

At Bragg we did all of ours at 800 feet.

Combat jumps are from 500.

I have been told that they raised the jumps at Bragg since I have been out, but I don't know for sure.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Vallerina 2]

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I have been told that they raised the jumps at Bragg since I have been out, but I don't know for sure.

According to my cousin, they haven't.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[akjmpplt 0]

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Here's the reason: How many people on static-line can really SENSE the difference between being towed behind an A/C and/or freefall. I doubt the student with one or two S/L "skydives" can or that a military candy jumper can.

I've been involved in two towed jumpers, both military. The first one did as he was trained and we cut him away. The second on was a cherry jumper (fresh out of jump school for those that don't know) and was towed because his equipment lowering line half-hitched around the d-bag. The jumper thought he was in freefall and pulled the reserve. That 24' round didn't slow the C-130 one little bit, it did however tear the jumper loose from the airplane breaking the 4000 lb test tubular nylon lowering line AND giving the jumper a double skull fracture, broken fingers, cuts and bruises. When the lowering line broke the main deployed normally and he landed under two canopies. He was unconcious from the head injury and quit breathing on us several times as we did first aid and prepped him for the medavac. He survived and came back to the unit and went through jump refresher but never jumped again.

I carry a nice sharp knife, if you get hung up on my airplane you will be cut free. "I can't land with you there dude!"

SmugMug

[katiebear21 0]

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I have been told that they raised the jumps at Bragg since I have been out, but I don't know for sure.

According to my cousin, they haven't.

800 ft for most training jumps unless it's a CASA, Otter, or heli, then normally 1250 ft.

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

[Zenister 0]

did all of mine from 800 feet...what has changed is the majority of the jumps are now 'hollywood' (minus combat gear for the non-military)

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[BIGUN 1,051]

Great story, good outcome.

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but you better be damn sure that skydiver's conscious before cutting him away.

It's difficult to convey the entire meaning in a thread sometimes. I doubt that myself or anyone else who's in that position would just cut the unconcious skydiver (well, we can hope). My concern was for the concious ones and what their first instinct would be.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SlyFox 0]

Jumps at Bragg are done from 1250 to 1500 ft.

*****Why would anyone jump from a perfectly good airplane? Because it isn't much fun if it's broke.****

[Erroll 49]

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UM.. aren't military jumps conducted from considerably lower then 3500ft??

Of course they are. I was more interested in Bill's thoughts on diving out after the (unconscious) student. Clearly this is not an option on a military jump, but a good AFFI might consider it on a sport jump from 3.5k.

[kenneth21441 0]

back in my days at Bragg (1987 to 1994) we used to Jump from 800 feet AGL with T-10C... The MC1-1c was at 1250 feet AGl... We had even done test on this German rig from 450feet AGL with no reserve.. (no time)..... Thank god that the Army did not buy this... Open then prepair to land.....

For a while there the C-141's had to raise the alt to 1000 feet as the wings were being stressed at teh bolts as the story goes.....

just my two cents on Bragg.....

thank you,

ken..

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[Ron 7]

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did all of mine from 800 feet...what has changed is the majority of the jumps are now 'hollywood' (minus combat gear for the non-military)

Did all of mine from 800 as well. Only once did I do a Hollywood jump at Bragg. It was for the aniversery of the C130...(40 years?) We had one C130 for each year one pass on the DZ...Pretty cool really.

I have been told that they raised the altitude after I got out (2002). But I really doubt the 82d is doing Hollywood jumps.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SlyFox 0]

I jumped mostly the MC-1C. Was there from 1991 to 2000. Wether I jumped with group or 82d the lowest jump that I did was 1250 at Bragg. I have did one at 900, but wasn't at Bragg. But, I did jump the MC-1C all but one jump there.

*****Why would anyone jump from a perfectly good airplane? Because it isn't much fun if it's broke.****