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skydiver51

Jump masters responsibility

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The rigs at Cushing are all IAD with Cypress for those who haven't yet understood that. I read something about Static Line...not in use in Cushing.

As for the jump course; knowing who gave the course (same guy that gave me my 1st jump course) I have a VERY hard time believing that emergency procedures were never covered, even for possible aircraft failure. I remember them vividly and I took my FJC there just 6 weeks prior to the crash. Each jumper must pass a written test before they are allowed to board the plane.

The plane normally sat 6 people, 1 pilot, 1 JM, and 4 others, most of which were usually students. The two in the rear of the plane sat with their backs to the tail; jumper behind pilot faced the rear; first out the door would sit facing the rear with their back up against the panel protecting the dash; JM would be between first jumper and the jumper leaning back against the rear of the plane.

Mike Palmer always compensated for weight. If the load had larger jumpers, only four would board other than pilot rather than five. Usually, the largest jumper would sit in the front and exit first.

The NTSB prelim reports that the plane entered a flat, counter-clockwise spin, meaning the door is on the outside of the spin. There simply is no way that I can imagine in that particular plane for the JM to get anyone out without first exiting the plane himself, there simply is not enough room. With the door on the outside of the spin, it is possible that the JM didn't even jump, but rather was thrown from the plane.

The newspaper article is misinformed along with uninformed. They spoke with at leas two USPA officials, including Chris Needels. You think they would at least get the basic facts correct.

On Monday evening on the local CBS affiliate, KWTV-9, a story will air showing interviews with four of the jumpers; the two that went down with the plane, the one that was "sucked" out, and one that remained on the ground awaiting the next load. It also appears biased and misinformed, based simply on the information given from the four people who collectively have less than four jumps.

In other related news, immediately following the crash OSC withdrew their USPA membership. Their insurance had also lapsed a week before the crash for non-payment. Rumor has it that Palmer is shopping around for a buyer. At least one other DZ owner has reported that.

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re. AADs...

In Australia all students (and up to D licence) are required to have AADs. At my DZ, some student training is done by S/L. The S/L setup is a direct bag, not a PC assist S/L (the line attaches to the acft, jumping peels out the static line which then pulls the pin, and the line pulls out the deployment bag). These rigs don't have AADs, as (apparantly) the direct line S/L is seen as an AAD.

When the S/L students move onto freefall, then the get a rig with a "conventional" AAD.


Any comments.??
--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

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Hello Kris. I'm glad to see you and a couple of others who have either jumped at Cushing, or JMed there, reply. I didn't post this to run down Mike's DZ but to inform other jumpers, mainly new jumpers, about what happens when you have an inflight emergency. Also to clear up any misinformation the news people printed.
I can understand the JM not talking for legal reasons but would really like to hear his side of the story.
I started back jumping at Cushing after a 23 yr lay-off. Mike had a top notch DZ even if he only had C182s. I went thru the BIC to become a JM but decided to fly the camera instead.
Thanks to you and everyone else for setting things striaght. It seems news people can't get it right even when they talk to the right people.

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Billy,

Correct my friend on the spin training however, stall recognition, and recovery are still required. As you know that is the prelude to a spin. Stalls can be agravated into a spin by cross controlling the aircraft, which is common with anyone on the step, or CG. With students in the back the CG can/will have an effect.

As far a JM'ing. I tell all students that I will not die for them. I will move everyone to the door and out that I can however, "if you see my tennis shoes going out the door, follow them, quickly.".

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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>however, stall recognition, and recovery are still required.

Yeah. I have often wondered if that's sufficient for jump pilots. You could argue that stall training alone is enough for private pilots flying C172's, but a stall can become a spin very quickly for someone with two people hanging on the wing.

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I had left the DZ an hour before it took place. I agree on the other message re: no time to act. you are taught in the event of a aircraft emergency about 1000 ft you must exit the aircraft count to one thousand an deploy your reserve. i feel for the JM and the survivors..as a skydiver i know you must exit and no time to think ..if he was a navy seal mabye.. i also know at a time like that newbies freeze up and don't jump..JM was doing was he was taught..EXIT..

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this is the kind of report the news needs to do..about the others not able to exit if they tried because the jm would be in the way..and to postion him around to pull them out..i don't see it happening..you know the space in a c-182..the JM should have jump for others to exit..they just didn't.

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He fiercely pulled on both parachute guide chords to slow down


Sounds like the reporter didn't have a clue about either aviation or skydiving and misunderstood terms mentioned to him/her eg. S/L for an automatic deployment 'safety mechanism'.


I believe the reporter is referring to the toggles that he pulled down to flare on landing. and the "automatic deployment safety mechanism" was the cypress.


Full quote:"A safety mechanism deployed his parachute at about 1,100 feet. He opened his eyes and watched the plane fall. He fiercely pulled on both parachute guide chords to slow down."
So he was performing a practice flare at altitude, as per his training. No big thing, but the report makes it sound like a life saving split-second reaction. Just pointing out that the reporter is writing on an unfamiliar topic.
Main was deployed by Cypres. My mistake.
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The article made the pilot sound like a relatively inexperienced one

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He had moved to Oklahoma for the summer to log flight hours in an attempt to become a full-time pilot


All dz pilots are very experienced (no DZO would hire otherwise). Most have a CPL (commericial pilots licence) - I'm not sure if this is required by the FAA under flying for reward. In any case he would have been sufficiently experienced to recover from a spin from 3,500'.


I believe that the CPL is required, along with several hundred hours of flight time (not sure of exact amount). However, I know at many small DZs the pilots are doing the job in order to get flight time, in order to eventually get a better job.


I would say that there are very few DZ pilots who actually make a living from it. For most it is definately an hour building exercise. NTSB prelim says he had a CPL. This indicates something like a minimum of 600 hrs. He would have had a full checkride in that particular a/c so the DZO would have been completely happy with his ability to operate it and deal with emergency proceedures. On top of that he would have been performing paradrop ops for a good while beforehand and would have been completely familiar with the handling of the a/c. There is no doubt as to the competancy of the pilot but the article doesn't play it like that.
I'm glad we've had some input from folks who've jumped from this DZ and can attest that the training is top notch and safety is given a priority. Just shows that eye-witness reports can be flawed, that these 'human interest' pieces are overdramatized and selective in what facts they print, and that bitter people choose to remember a version of events that suits themselves. Remember that there are lawsuits pending.

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I am not an instructor, or a rigger (I am currently working on a rating). Take the following with a whole pound of salt.

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Main was deployed by Cypres. My mistake.


A Cypres is not made to be used as a main parachute opening device, and can only be used with a reserve. Not a big deal, it doesnt say anywhere that it wasn't his reserve.
In response to someones comment:
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These rigs don't have AADs, as (apparantly) the direct line S/L is seen as an AAD.


I dont see how that can be the case. A S/L will deploy a main parachute, if used properly. So will a ripcord, or tossing a pilot chute in freefall. The reason students (this is CSPA regulations) require a "functional reserve-mounted Automatic Activation Device"(from CSPA BSR's) is in case this doesnt work. A student cypres is designed to deploy the reserve if the jumper has no main parachute out, OR a partial mal (i.e. still descending at a speed unsafe to land). S/L main deployment is considered a normal deployment, a cypres is strictly a backup device. What if the S/L wasnt hooked up properly, or their is a problem with the main deployment? The definition of "AAD" could define a S/L but the common use, and reason for having an AAD, is as a backup device, to deploy a reserve in case of an emergency.

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Bill,

The "thought process" is that if you recognize the "entry" you can avoid it. LOL.

Reminds me of the first hammerhead I did. Blew it, ended up on by back in and inverted spin. Friend with me thought it was great until he looked at my face. Later he asked if I'd done one of those before, my response, "no, but I've read about them"! LOL

Remember my saying "Experience is something you gain two seconds after you NEED it!"

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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Main was deployed by Cypres. My mistake.


A Cypres is not made to be used as a main parachute opening device, and can only be used with a reserve. Not a big deal, it doesnt say anywhere that it wasn't his reserve.


Doh!, stupid brain. I'm gonna start killing it with alcohol again... that'll show it who's in charge around here.

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>A Cypres is not made to be used as a main parachute opening
>device, and can only be used with a reserve.

A cypres can do the same thing on a ripcord main as it does on a reserve (i.e. cut the loop.) It's not often used that way since it's hard to set to fire higher. FXC's were often used on mains, though - Perris used an FXC on the main and nothing on the reserve for a while, until someone managed to disconnect their RSL and cut away at the same time.

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A cypres can do the same thing on a ripcord main as it does on a reserve (i.e. cut the loop.


I guess so, that doesnt seem like an economical solution though :P. I knew that FXC'c could be used on mains. How long ago was Perris doing that? I dont know what the USPA BSR's are regarding students and AAD's, but wouldnt you need a reserve mounted AAD these days?

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Perris used FXC 12000 AADs on their student mains from - whenever they bought Telesis containers - until the winter of 2000 when I converted all their Telesis to double-sided BOCs.
For a while they overlapped with FXC on the mains and Cypres in thier student reserves.
That version of Telesis was a rigger's nightmare with three different deployment methods. When the last batch of Telesis for Perris left Rigging Innovations, Sandy Reid vowed that it was the last batch we would ever build with that main container configuration!

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I have no knowledge of the pilot Mr. Hill or any knowledge of the Cushing dz. My comments are general observations about the industry and have no reflection of any specific dz or operation.


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All dz pilots are very experienced


This is not true. Every dz pilot must at some time fly their very first load with actual skydivers on it. Flying skydivers is different than other types of flying and dz pilots should receive appropriate training before flying jumpers.

It is unusual for any pilot outside of skydiving to gain experience flying under the conditions that jump pilots fly in. Very heavy weight at take off. Slow flight speeds at heavy weight. Moving cargo / shifting center of gravity. And then suddenly very light weight for decent and landing. Also, during all of the varying flight characteristics, the pilot communicates with the jumpmaster in the plane, the enroute or approach radar controllers, the local CTAF, all at the same time as monitoring the flight and operation of the aircraft.



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(no DZO would hire otherwise).


This is not true. There are many dz's that will not pay their pilots enough to hire very experienced pilots because the very experienced pilots will not work for the rate (sometimes nothing/free) offered by the dz.



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Most have a CPL (commericial pilots licence)


This is true. But, a person can get a commercial pilots rating with only 200 hours of total time. Of that, at least 40 hours and usually more was logged as a student pilot.





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In any case he would have been sufficiently experienced to recover from a spin


This is not true. As mentioned before, spin recovery is not required training for a private or commercial pilots rating. Also, in a situation of severe aft center of gravity, this can make it very difficult to recover from a spin even with extreme competence and appropriate pilot reactions.

Also, jump pilots fly in an environment of heavy weight and low speeds. This alone is a recipe for trouble. While it should be taught, it is not drilled into many student pilots enough about the relationship between weight of the aircraft, density altitude (temperature) and stall speed. If the weight of the aircraft is close to or over the aircraft maximum gross takeoff weight, the stall speed will be higher.

Add to this situation where you have a student on the strut and suddenly he drops off and then the JM moves toward the rear of the plane in order to make room for the student sitting with his back to the pilot to slide over to the student exit position, and suddenly the plane is placed into a very rearward center of gravity situation. This also will increase the stall speed.

It takes an experienced and trained pilot to manage all of these variables and most new jump pilots do not receive sufficient training for these flight conditions.

Just some thoughts and observations.

This is not an attack on gerrgoin. He simply provided an opening that allowed for adding some of my opionions to an important topic.

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As far a JM'ing. I tell all students that I will not die for them. I will move everyone to the door and out that I can however, "if you see my tennis shoes going out the door, follow them, quickly.".



I'm with you on this. When I did students, I always told them it was their job to save their own life.

As for them saying they didn't receive emergency training. It's their word against the JM and Instructor. A good thing to have is a copy of a test that you give the students after their class. We did that when I was a JM. If the student didn't answer one of the questions correct, that told me that I didn't do my job in teaching them. I would then sit down with that student and review with them.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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As for them saying they didn't receive emergency training. It's their word against the JM and Instructor. A good thing to have is a copy of a test that you give the students after their class.



When I taught the FJC at that DZ, no student ever left the classroom until the test was filled out correctly and both I and the student was comfortable they understood what they needed to do to save their own life.

I may have misread the newspaper, but I thought it said the JM told the students to exit after him. I don't know what else he could have done but exit to get out of the way....I guess the students thought he should have crashed with the plane.

I really, really feel for the students who were injured, but I don't believe they are correct when they indicate their JM was "gutless" for exiting.

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I really, really feel for the students who were injured, but I don't believe they are correct when they indicate their JM was "gutless" for exiting.



You are so right. There is only so much a JM can do. It's up to each and everyone one of us that skydives to save our own life.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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As far a JM'ing. I tell all students that I will not die for them. I will move everyone to the door and out that I can however, "if you see my tennis shoes going out the door, follow them, quickly.".



I'm with you on this. When I did students, I always told them it was their job to save their own life.

As for them saying they didn't receive emergency training. It's their word against the JM and Instructor. A good thing to have is a copy of a test that you give the students after their class. We did that when I was a JM. If the student didn't answer one of the questions correct, that told me that I didn't do my job in teaching them. I would then sit down with that student and review with them.



You guys sounds great, my FJCI was great too. I wouldn't have gotten on the plane is he hadn't made me feel confident that I knew what to do, including airplane emergencies. The test is critical, it would scare me if they had just told me everything and said "ok lets go"

Never go to a DZ strip show.

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I really, really feel for the students who were injured, but I don't believe they are correct when they indicate their JM was "gutless" for exiting.



You are so right. There is only so much a JM can do. It's up to each and everyone one of us that skydives to save our own life.



That is one thing that really sticks out from my training almost 8 years ago. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN LIFE. That was stressed often (I think because the questions we were asking).
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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If I remember correctly the question on the test was "In the event of an aircraft emergency, what should you do." The correct answer, "Follow your Jumpmaster's directions."

Every student must correctly answer this before they jump at Cushing.

Unfortunately, it sounds to me as if the plane went into a stall as the JM shifted back to allow the second student to the front of the plane. If the pilot began yelling exit when the JM and the student were dosey doing into position it is probable that the JM told the students "exit after me." It's what I would have done. There is no way anyone gets out if the JM stays in the forward position between the legs of the individual in the student position. Your job as the JM is to get out of the way so as many people as possible can exit.

This was a tragic, tragic aviation accident, not a skydiving incident.

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Great minds think alike. I was just going to say all that. I too would have just looked back in the plane and told the students to follow me out. Naturally they would have learned to leave the aircraft with their hand on that silver handle, cause that's what they would have said on their test.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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I may have misread the newspaper, but I thought it said the JM told the students to exit after him. I don't know what else he could have done but exit to get out of the way....I guess the students thought he should have crashed with the plane.



According to the jumpers highlighted in the news story, the JM only said "Emergency" or "Prepare for an emergency." The pilot then said "Everyone out." At that point, supposedly the JM exited the plane "in a perfect dive."

Again, according to four people with less than four jumps collectively (one can't remember a thing; another was already out of the plane)

dgm

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First off I don't know anything about what really happened.

Aren't students suppose to have their rigs on and strapped tightly before they even get on the airplane?

All the student has to do is jump and pull.

Sure they probably didn't have their helmet, radios,and googles on but that doesn't mean you can't bail out! The pilot doesn't have these things when he jumps!

What was the jumpmaster suppose to do differently?

When I did AFF, they taught us during ground training that if you are above 2K, go for your main.
If you are below 2K go striaght for your reserve.

In an emergancy, the most important thing is to get the hell out!

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