Jump masters responsibility

[skydiver51 0]

Some of you may rememeber the crash of the C182 last summer in Cushing Oklahoma where the pilot was killed and two first time jumpers were seriously injured. This article was in the Oklahoma City news paper this weekend and I was wondering if the jump master abandoned his students as claimed.

"The two groups claim instructors and jumpmasters at the Oklahoma Skydiving Center never prepared them for a flight emergency. The survivors also claim jumpmaster Tony Hays abandoned his charges once the plane went into a flat spin at about 3,500 feet June 21.

"It was gutless," said Bob Stieber, who watched from the ground as his son, Jake, escaped serious injury and possibly death when he parachuted from the plummeting plane.

"His instructor was the first one to jump out of the plane," Bob Stieber said. "When it came right down to it, they didn't care about anybody.

Pilot Hill shouted: "Everyone exit the plane!"

"The jumpmaster looked at the first-time skydivers and said an emergency was occurring. Moments later, he was out of the plane and heading toward safety. "

I'm not a jump master but thought they are suspose to get the studenys out before leaving themselves.

[darkwing 4]

I am reluctant to chime in when the only "facts" available are from a newspaper article. I can certainly envision circumstances where it would be impossible to get others out of a 182 unless one person got out of the way first. Sometimes (i.e. in emergencies) the ideal situation is not available. No time (no altitude). Having said that, I'd still like to know who was where in the plane. What equipment did they have, how big were they, etc. Until I know a lot more I can neither condemn nor exonerate anyone here.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[skydiver51 0]

The news paper article quoted the people who were on the plane when it crashed. From the article I gather the jump master was at the door and did a diving exit. But before he jumped he took the time to announce there was an emergency, for everyone to exit, then jumped. According to the people on the plane he didn't try to help anyone.

[gerrcoin 0]

Ok let's not speculate here. I don't know of the incident but without detailed info, like maybe NTSB report, it's difficult to say anything constructive. But for my two cents...
The c182 can carry 5 ie. pilot,JM and up to 3 (small) students. More than 1 student on a 182 implies that this was not AFF but either S/L or IAD, both of which go from 3,500' anyway. JM is always by the door to spot and help students in climbing onto strut. So it's just as well he got out first in order to avoid blocking the exit or slowing others.
If the pilot hadn't already told them to bail by the time the a/c had entered a flat spin then you can be sure that it was a pretty sudden incident. But at the first sign of even relatively 'minor' trouble the pilot would have told them to exit anyway in order to have the best chance of saving the a/c. From the (not neccessarily accurate) news clipping, that sounds more like what happened.
There is no good reason for a 182 to enter a flat spin (even with a dead engine) without something drastic occuring like locked controls or a part of the tail departing the aircraft. Are you sure that maybe one of the students didn't hit the tail on the way out considering that it would not be a standard exit.
In any case the build up of g loading in a flat spin is tremendous and after a few turns would most likely pin everyone inside the a/c. The sooner you exit the better the chances you and everyone else has of surviving. Pilot usually goes last and has the least chance of making it. The descent rate would be something like 1,500 to 2,000 ft/min down, so that gives you just over 1 minute from 3,500'. Again speed is the key. So it sound like he did the correct thing.
On the other hand, the JM had the responsibility for insuring that all jumpers on the lift (not just students) are aware of the emergency procedures for that type of aircraft. It's slightly disturbing that the students claim to have had no safety briefing for the a/c, especially on a first jump.

[skydiver51 0]

The icendent has been posted on here back when it happened. There were 5 jumpers on a wide body Cessna with droop tips. They put one jumper out (all were S/L) and were rearangeing when the plane went out of control. No one hit the plane. It is believed a stall caused the plane to lose control. I will try to post both articles.

[skydiver51 0]

Here is the whole article.

Crash survivors recall skydiving trip
2004-02-15
By Michael Baker
Staff Writer


The plane's engine sputtered to a stall.
The plane spun violently and started to plunge June 21 near Cushing.

• Survivors, pilot's family might sue
Video

The wind tore Jake Stieber from the aircraft. In a free fall from half a mile above the ground, his parachute automatically opened.

Stieber pried open his eyes.

"I could see the plane. I could see trees underneath. I watched the plane crash. I honestly figured they were all dead," Stieber said.

Inside the plummeting plane, Glenn Miller scrambled for his daughter. They locked eyes.

Miller's daughter, Shelly York, was frozen with terror. The color drained from her face.

How it happened

1. About 4 p.m., the group posed for a picture before boarding a Cessna 182 Skylane piloted by Stephen A. Hill at Cushing Regional Airport to go skydiving.
2. The plane circled the airport several times before climbing to 3,500 feet. Coble jumped first, and his parachute safely deployed.

3. The plane banked violently to the left side. Witnesses on the ground told the NTSB the plane went slightly "upward then out of control in a counter-clockwise spin." The engine sputtered before cutting out. The pilot yelled for everyone to exit the plane. Jumpmaster Tony Hays was the next out.

4. While the plane was spinning, Jake Stieber was thrown toward the plane door and sucked out. He hit his head on the side of the plane but made it out, and his parachute deployed safely. As the plane continued to descend sharply, one witness told the NTSB the engines revved back up at about 300-400 feet. But the plane continued in what the NTSB called a flat spin before crashing in some trees.

5. The crash killed pilot Stephen A. Hill and seriously injured would-be skydivers Glenn Miller and Shelly York.


"I went to grab my daughter," Miller said. "She couldn't move. Wouldn't move ... I believe you could have heard a pin drop."

Miller, Stieber and other witnesses of the crash -- which left one person dead and two skydivers seriously injured -- recently spoke with The Oklahoman and KWTV NEWS 9. Their accounts detail what happened.

It was a Saturday, and clouds dotted the sky.

York, 30, had asked her father to join her on a skydiving adventure. The first-timers were thrilled to head to the Oklahoma Skydiving Center at Cushing Regional Airport.

Bob Stieber and his son, Jake, also headed to Cushing. The trip was an early birthday present for Jake.

"I'd wanted to do it for a long time," 21-year-old Jake Stieber said. "I didn't know if I'd have the guts to do it."

Miller, York and the Stiebers bonded during a day of skydiving classes.

About 4 p.m., the time came to jump.

Fearful flight
Jake Stieber, Tim Coble, Miller and York posed for a photo, then boarded a 1965 Cessna 182 Skylane, which Stephen A. Hill piloted. Jumpmaster Tony Hays joined them, Miller and others said. Hays could not be reached for comment.

Because the plane was too small for everyone, the Stiebers split up. Jake went first and Bob waited for the next run.

Once airborne, the plane circled before climbing to about 3,500 feet.

The 36-year-old Coble jumped first. His parachute opened and he drifted toward the ground.

"I remember talking with Shelly about how he looked like he was having a good time," Jake Stieber said.

Stieber was next and shifted into position by the door.

Then things went bad.

The plane banked violently to the port side. The left wing's tip pointed down. The engine cut out.

As Coble glided down, he looked left. The plane was at eye level.

"It was right beside me," Coble said, remembering how the plane's nose pointed down at a 45-degree angle. The aircraft started a flat spin and spiraled downward like a corkscrew.

Inside the plane, an alarm rang.

The word "stall" sounded from the cockpit.

Pilot Hill shouted: "Everyone exit the plane!"

The jumpmaster looked at the first-time skydivers and said an emergency was occurring. Moments later, he was out of the plane and heading toward safety.

"It was just pure fear," Stieber said. "I had no idea what to do after that."

The plane spun counter- clockwise.

Jake Stieber reached for York. Miller also reached for his daughter.

The two men started crawling along the floor. Their legs entangled each other.

Miller lunged toward his daughter, bumping Stieber out of the way.

Stieber was thrown toward the door. The wind sucked him out. His head clipped the side of the plane.

A safety mechanism deployed his parachute at about 1,100 feet. He opened his eyes and watched the plane fall. He fiercely pulled on both parachute guide chords to slow down.

Stieber curled his legs and braced for impact. He survived with scrapes, cuts, bumps and bruises.

Inside the falling aircraft, Miller tried to get his daughter out of the plane as the engine revved and it disappeared behind trees.

Miller remembers thinking that maybe everything would be OK.

"Then I remember waking up outside on the ground with paramedics standing over me," Miller said.

Miller and his daughter never got out of the plane.

Plane, lives mangled
Bob Stieber, 49, watched the ordeal from the ground. He didn't know if his son was one of the jumpers.

"I figured everybody that was still on the plane was dead."

Bob Stieber jumped into a truck and headed toward the wreckage, relieved when he spotted his son running toward the crash scene.

The mangled wreckage showed the plane was falling relatively flat when it hit the ground, according to a National Transportation Safety Board preliminary report. The fuselage was crushed downward and the wings had twisted from the plane.

Hill, an Oklahoma native and owner of a California music studio, was dead. He left behind a wife and an 11- month-old son.

In the following weeks, friends described Hill as a safety-conscious pilot. He had moved to Oklahoma for the summer to log flight hours in an attempt to become a full- time pilot and spend more time with his son.

"Our hearts go out to the pilot's family," Bob Stieber said.

Miller, 60, fractured a bone in his back, had some broken ribs and broke his hip. He needed a metal plate in his forehead and right ankle, along with two 8-inch metal rods in his back. He spent five weeks in the hospital.

"I am blessed," York said, remembering what she thought when she woke from a three-week coma. "I don't remember anything from the crash. My last memory is getting on the plane."

York was released from the hospital after two months.

Scars cover parts of her body. She will need several reconstructive operations for her face.

York suffered brain damage and lost sight in her right eye. Her sense of smell is gone. The damage has caused parts of her personality to change, such as her sense of humor.

York, a single mother, is slowly becoming reacquainted with her two sons, Beau, 4, and J.D., 6, and her 8-year-old daughter, April.

The recent interview was the first time Miller and York had seen the Stiebers since the crash. Coble did not attend the reunion, but talked to The Oklahoman by phone.

"I'm just glad we're all sitting here right now," Bob Stieber said.

The reunion, punctuated by hugs and teary eyes, prompted Bob Stieber to make a prediction:

"Something better was planned for them. That's why they got out of that plane alive."

[riddler 0]

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More than 1 student on a 182 implies that this was not AFF but either S/L or IAD,

Question - do normal IAD and SL jumps use AADs? Or is that usually deactivated?

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A safety mechanism deployed his parachute at about 1,100 feet

Never mind - question answered.

[gerrcoin 0]

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There were 5 jumpers on a wide body Cessna with droop tips.

Unlikely. Pilot and 4 jumpers. 5 pax would overload a 182.
The article seems to have a fair ammount on inaccuracies in it.

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The word "stall" sounded from the cockpit.

Stall warning Horn which beeps. You will hear it sometimes when taking off as the a/c is just above the stall. Will definately sound in a spin.

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Stieber was thrown toward the door. The wind sucked him out

Centrifugal forces threw him out.

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A safety mechanism deployed his parachute at about 1,100 feet

S/L rigs don't have an AAD because there is no chance of not deploying the main (that's what the static line is for) and they only increase the danger of reserve deployment before a cut away. His S/L would have been hooked up before entering the a/c and would have pulled the main. He was probably unconcious for a few seconds and doesn't remember the canopy opening.

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He fiercely pulled on both parachute guide chords to slow down

Sounds like the reporter didn't have a clue about either aviation or skydiving and misunderstood terms mentioned to him/her eg. S/L for an automatic deployment 'safety mechanism'.
The article made the pilot sound like a relatively inexperienced one

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He had moved to Oklahoma for the summer to log flight hours in an attempt to become a full-time pilot

All dz pilots are very experienced (no DZO would hire otherwise). Most have a CPL (commericial pilots licence) - I'm not sure if this is required by the FAA under flying for reward. In any case he would have been sufficiently experienced to recover from a spin from 3,500'.
A stall with enough altitude is not really a problem. All student pilots (<40 hrs) must practice stalls and stall recovery. A spin usually happens when one wing stalls just before the other (wing drop) but again this is something that student pilots practice recovering from. You cut power (throttle back - probably misinterpreted on the ground as:"The engine sputtered before cutting out"), stick fully forward and full opposite rudder. The flat attitude of the spin suggests that the elevators were neutral or even up slightly. You usually loose about 1,500' in an average recovery. A 182 wouldn't usually drop a wing in a stall but in a turn, maybe.
The thrust of my arguement here is that there were probably other factors at play here and I feel the article isn't accurate enough to draw any real conclusion from.

[gerrcoin 0]

Clicky
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030626X00959&key=1
For preliminary NTSB report.
Can't really draw anything from this either.

[skydiver51 0]

182 Fatal crash - OK 6/22/03 PRESS clippings

Check out the origanal post. There were 5 jumpers and the pilot.
One had already been put out, one was sucked out the door, then the jump master went out. That left the father and daughter, who went down with the plane along with the pilot. The pilot didn't make it. The father and daughter were injured. I use to jump at this drop zone a few years back and wondered myself if 6 people should have been on the plane. Jake Stieber, Tim Coble, Glenn Miller and Shelly York were the students, Tony Hayes was the jump master and Stephen Hill was the pilot.

Edit: Coble was put out, then Hays jumped and Stieber was sucked out. The jump master went out before the rest of the students.

[gerrcoin 0]

Aplolgies, on rereading the NTSB report confirms 6 people on board. I find that very unusual. The 182 was designed as a 4 seater but with the seats gone you could get 5. Space is not really the issue. Aircraft are limited in what weight they can carry and how that weight is distributed. That's why everyone has to be as far forward on the a/c as possible even though there may seem like a lot of space at the back. It's to do with the centre of gravity and directly effects the stability and handling of the a/c.
The report doesn't not mention overloading so they may have been legal, but only just. It's possible that someone moving towards the tail at a critical moment could cause the a/c to pitch up and stall - especially since they would be flying slowly and with the power off for a climb out exit.

[sunshine 2]

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S/L rigs don't have an AAD because there is no chance of not deploying the main (that's what the static line is for) and they only increase the danger of reserve deployment before a cut away. His S/L would have been hooked up before entering the a/c and would have pulled the main. He was probably unconcious for a few seconds and doesn't remember the canopy opening.

S/L rigs sure do have AADs. The S/L is not always hooked up before leaving the ground. At the S/L DZ i went through student training at, all rigs have student cypres and the S/L was not hooked up until jumprun. We were told in the event of AC emergency, to simply jump out of the plane and pull silver. And since the jumpmaster would be in the way, he would exit to make room for the last 2 students to jump after him.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[gerrcoin 0]

I stand corrected. I've never heard of them on S/L before and would have thought they were a bad idea for that anyway. But then again I've always seen the static lines hooked up before entering the a/c to prevent any nasty memory lapses by the JM (and premature first freefall surprises for the students).
Anyway, we digress. I feel the JM did the right thing, given assumed circumstances, and the students felt abandoned to their fates because they claimed they weren't briefed on emergency exit proceedures and didn't know what to expect. Has anyone here trained at this club who can attest to the training there.

[riggerrob 558]

Some wide-body Cessna 182s can legally carry a pilot plus 5 skydivers, provided they have an STC to install enough seat belts.

AADs have been mandatory for all Canadian students since before I became a CSPA Instructor in 1982.

Some DZs attach all static-lines before take-off, while others attach static-lines one at a time at jump altitude.

It is easy to stall most jump planes on jump run. All it takes is a moment of inattention or a student moving too far aft.

Sounds like centrifugal force tossed the instructor out.

To quote Dan Yahrling "the instructor's responsibility is to be the last one out alive."

[gerrcoin 0]

Hmmm...It's been pointed out to me that FAA regs make it mandatory to have student Cypres on S/L and IAD rigs. I jump UK & Ireland (under JAA) and have not seen this before. Disregard this in my posts.

[MarkM 0]

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Hmmm...It's been pointed out to me that FAA regs make it mandatory to have student Cypres on S/L and IAD rigs. I jump UK & Ireland (under JAA) and have not seen this before. Disregard this in my posts.

I don't think it's a FAA reg in the US, but a USPA rule. All student rigs are required to have AADs. I could be wrong, but I didn't think the FAA had too many rules covering skydiving(a self regulated sport).

In an emergency everyone is resposible for themselves. If a SL student's main doesn't open on a "normal" jump the JM isn't going to magically float down and save their lives. I think in this case the JM notified everyone of the emergency, then got the hell out of the way by exiting.

[Mad47 0]

How is it possible for JM sitting by the door of tiny C-182 going into spin to let/force terrified students get out first?

[cruzit 0]

My .02 cents. I instructed and JMed at Cushing for 3 years. Although I have not been out there teaching for the past 3 years...Mike Palmer was still the DZO at the time and I wouldn't think he had changed his safety policies.

The students were IAD. All of the DZ's student rigs were equipped with Student Cypreses.

Since I was not there, I don't care to speculate as to whether the Instructor or JM gave the required "what to do in the event of an aircraft emergency" spiel. However, having taught and JMed hundreds of students out the DZ and aircraft in question, I can tell you that what we told the students in the event of an aircraft emergency was that they were to follow their jumpmaster's instructions.

Generally speaking, the jumpmaster has to exit first to clear the door for the students. IMO the JM and the student in the student position were lucky they got out at all as the plane was stalling and going into a flat spin.

While I empathize with the injured students (the only one killed was the pilot), they themselves said the JM instructed them to exit after him. Unfortunately in a flat spin situation, it was unlikely after the first rotation or two that they would be able to exit due to the centrifigal forces.

[billvon 2,379]

>S/L rigs don't have an AAD . . .

All US student rigs, including S/L rigs, must have AAD's.

>A spin usually happens when one wing stalls just before the other
> (wing drop) but again this is something that student pilots practice
> recovering from.

Spin training was removed from the PP syllabus years ago. It was considered too dangerous.

(someone else posted)
>To quote Dan Yahrling "the instructor's responsibility is to be the last one out alive."

Not really practical on a C182. When I was JM'ing students, I could effectively get myself and the jumper in student position out the door; I simply can't reach the rest, and if I remained in the airplane to help them, I would block their exit. I would get the first student out, tell the other two to bail out on their reserves, and exit the airplane. About the only exception to this would be a cargo-door C206; it has enough room to manuever all the students out before I exited as well.

[pilotdave 0]

I have no clue how people were arranged in the plane. But after doing a few 182 jumps yesterday with only 4 jumpers on board, I can't even imagine how crowded it would be with 5. Under normal circumstances, moving around in a 182 is very difficult. If the JM was near the door, getting out may have been the only way anyone else on board could have gotten to the door. Everyone knows the risks when they get into a skydiving plane...or at least they should. I don't blame the JM even if he did just try to save himself.

Dave

[cruzit 0]

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When I was JM'ing students, I could effectively get myself and the jumper in student position out the door; I simply can't reach the rest, and if I remained in the airplane to help them, I would block their exit. I would get the first student out, tell the other two to bail out on their reserves, and exit the airplane.

That's my feeling exactly. When I was instructing students, my instructions during training for aircraft emergencies were for the students to exit after me
with both hands on their reserve, count to two (in order for the reserve to clear the tail) and pull.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Even in Fandango emergency procedures were taught.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[bch7773 0]

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He fiercely pulled on both parachute guide chords to slow down

Sounds like the reporter didn't have a clue about either aviation or skydiving and misunderstood terms mentioned to him/her eg. S/L for an automatic deployment 'safety mechanism'.

I believe the reporter is referring to the toggles that he pulled down to flare on landing. and the "automatic deployment safety mechanism" was the cypress.

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The article made the pilot sound like a relatively inexperienced one

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He had moved to Oklahoma for the summer to log flight hours in an attempt to become a full-time pilot

All dz pilots are very experienced (no DZO would hire otherwise). Most have a CPL (commericial pilots licence) - I'm not sure if this is required by the FAA under flying for reward. In any case he would have been sufficiently experienced to recover from a spin from 3,500'.

I believe that the CPL is required, along with several hundred hours of flight time (not sure of exact amount). However, I know at many small DZs the pilots are doing the job in order to get flight time, in order to eventually get a better job.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[mikecm469 1]

I made my first dozen jumps at OSC, and I can say that we had fit 5 jumpers in that plane a couple of times. It was cramped, buy possible. Normally the first student out sat at the front of the plane next to the door, the JM was behind him and the rest of the students in the back. With that seating I can understand why the JM would go out first to allow the room for the others to get out. I also know that emergency exits and emergency procedures were drilled into our heads continuously during my first jump course.
Mike is anal about student safety, he chewed quite a few experienced jumpers butts for coming to close to his students on a couple of occasions that I know of. He even chewed mine once.

I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid!

[Kris 0]

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I have no clue how people were arranged in the plane. But after doing a few 182 jumps yesterday with only 4 jumpers on board, I can't even imagine how crowded it would be with 5.

Like Cruzit (who was one of my instructors when I started), I also worked out at OSC under Mike Palmer as an IAD-I. My first couple of hundred jumps were out of the plane that went in.

The plane was a wide-body 182 equipped with a STOL kit on the leading edge of the wings, plus wing-tip extensions. Handling 5 normal-sized pax + a pilot wasn't an issue.

As for what to do with them in an emergency, if the pilot says bail, I'm getting the student nearest the door out then telling the rest to follow me. In a small Cessna you don't have the room to do otherwise. Depending on the emergency, you don't usually have the time either.

Either way, I'll take my cue from the pilot. Leaving before the pilot gives permission can make a bad situation worse in a small plane.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™