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Remster

What would YOU do?

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Retire that pair of underwear as soon as I got to the ground. [:/]
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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First, let me guess what caused the collision. It seems like the camera guy (orange canopy) caught burble off of the pink canopy, which caused part of his nose to roll under, followed by a right turn and the collision with the green canopy.

As far as resolving the collision, I think they did everything right. Green canopy guy was through the orange canopy's lines. If the orange canopy had cut away first, his lines would have gone slack and recoiled up into the green canopy guy, potentially causing a worse entanglement.

Of course, it would have been better to avoid the entanglement in the first place. The orange canopy should have been aware that getting burbled can cause a loss of control and worked to avoid the burble. After getting burbled, aggressive left toggle may have helped maintain heading. From the video it is tough to tell how much, if any, left input he gave. Finally, it takes two people to get into a collision. From the slo-mo it looks like the green canopy didn't start turning away until just before the collision happened.

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It's not always clear cut, but from :58 onward the jumper is substantially below the canopy and is definitely in the lines. I've been in wraps and entanglements, and I would call it an entanglement. Regardless of what we call it, I think they handled it correctly. If I was the guy with the green canopy, I wouldn't want the bottom guy to cut away first.

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I guess I wouldn't have done the same. Better to have a flying canopy with mess around rather than cutting away and counting on gravity to pull me through the lines of the fouled canopy
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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airtwardo

Low guy should have chopped pretty early, especially when seeing legs in the lines.


Something I thought about addressing in my first post but decided to skip: Because there is no audio on the clip, it's impossible to tell if the jumpers communicated before anybody cut away. In a wrap or entanglement, if time allows, clear communication and deciding on a course of action is extremely important. It can be tough to tell exactly what is going on with the other guy, and unilaterally taking action can make things worse.

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Not a regular CRW dog, but have done a handful of jumps. From my training, looks like they did what I was taught. Upper jumper was in lower jumpers lines= entanglement.
Try to communicate.
Assess available altitude to work the problem.
Upper jumper should try to clear lines if possible, if not, communicate that he will chop before cutting away and hopefully fall clear of lower jumper.

If lower jumper chopped, slack in lines would be a bear for upper jumper to try and clear.

Looks like they did it "by the book".
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I noticed that after the guy with the green canopy cut away that his reserve didn't open up straight immediately.

Am I correct in assuming that he didn't have an RSL? If so, would the situation gotten a bit tougher if his reserve had immediately deployed ?

I know that its all speculation but I am curious as to what some of the CRW guys think.

Cheers

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Sky_doggy

I noticed that after the guy with the green canopy cut away that his reserve didn't open up straight immediately.

Am I correct in assuming that he didn't have an RSL? If so, would the situation gotten a bit tougher if his reserve had immediately deployed ?

I know that its all speculation but I am curious as to what some of the CRW guys think.

Cheers





No RSL's in CReW ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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My CReW experience is....2 jumps! haha And all I remember is the communication part.
But to me, the top guy cutting away first makes no sense at all.
What if he doesnt clear the entanglement? Then you'll have 2 people wrapped in lines going back in freefall, and a wasted good canopy.
If bottom guy cuts away first, the top person keeps flying his canopy and has a chance to untangle himself without the load of the bottom guy. I think the people in this video got lucky they didnt made it worse.
Again, my CReW experience is nada and I'll be happy to stand corrected. Can a experienced dog chime in?
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yeyo

Can a experienced dog chime in?


I only have 700-ish CRW jumps, so I'm not the most experienced CRW dog. I have been in my share of wraps and entanglements, including one entanglement where I used the "high guy cuts away" technique (actually, that's my only CRW cutaway). I can also talk CRW all day in person, but set me down in front of a keyboard and I can barely put a sentence together. I'm going to quote Mike Lewis' CRW emergency procedures:
Quote

An entanglement usually results from one jumper passing through the lines of another jumper's canopy. This causes the two parachutes to be entangled, with the pilots dangling beneath them. This situation almost always requires both jumpers to cut away. Usually one person will be suspended higher than the other. The general rule for entanglements is the top person goes first. If the bottom jumper releases, his lines and risers may recoil upward and wrap the other person. When the top person releases first, he may bounce off the bottom person on the way by, but he won't have much momentum.

The top jumper usually is the one who passed through the lines, and many times his parachute will pull itself out of the mess after being released. This is a bonus for the bottom jumper. Sometimes the entanglement will start spinning, with one jumper hanging downward and the other one orbiting the entanglement. In this situation the orbiter should cut away first. This will fling the orbiter clear of the entanglement without changing the other jumper's orientation. If the jumper hanging downward releases first, it will change the orbiter' orientation to the mess and could make his situation worse.



It seems counter-intuitive, but when the top jumper cuts away, they usually fall clear without any difficulty. If they do get stuck, they have taut lines to work with instead of a mess of spaghetti. It's a lot easier to sort out lines or use a hook knife on them is they have some tension. Additionally, the low jumper isn't in any more danger doing it this way. If the top jumper is unable to extricate himself, the low guy still has the option of cutting away. It isn't just theoretical, decades of experience has proven this approach.

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Who said this was a CRW jump?
Upper jumper doesn't use RSL (or disconnected) but lower apparently does.
Without audio it's impossible to say whether they've communicated, I'd say yes and I'd say it was no CRW.

And just for fun of it: lower guy there, I'd cutaway holding on the left rear (providing sufficient altitude, communication and no RSL). Upper - as in video (providing sufficient altitude, communication, without RSL).
What goes around, comes later.

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format

Who said this was a CRW jump?
Upper jumper doesn't use RSL (or disconnected) but lower apparently does.
Without audio it's impossible to say whether they've communicated, I'd say yes and I'd say it was no CRW.

And just for fun of it: lower guy there, I'd cutaway holding on the left rear (providing sufficient altitude, communication and no RSL). Upper - as in video (providing sufficient altitude, communication, without RSL).




It's correct that it was not a CRW jump but anytime you are that close to another jumper under canopy I think "CRWrules" apply.
Meaning you should have training for CRW and no RSL.

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Hellis


It's correct that it was not a CRW jump but anytime you are that close to another jumper under canopy I think "CRWrules" apply.



Which brings up the issue of what CRW maneuvering and collision rules are in the USPA SIM or other document appropriate to one's country. Anyone want to look up what the USPA says, and see whether it would be appropriate in a case like this?

Jumpers typically don't get CRW collision training unless they are learning CRW specifically.

Anyone download the video before it went private?

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Quote


Jumpers typically don't get CRW collision training unless they are learning CRW specifically.



I teach it in my Canopy Safety Course for jumpers. I have also had a seminar on it at Spaceland last year.

The information is out there and people are willing to teach it. The question is, are jumpers willing to listen.

top

ETA: I think the emergency was handled very well here. "Flocking" instructions might need review though.
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