jjiimmyyt 0 #1 September 29, 2004 I really don't understand it at all. Yes, I can do most of THE list time after time. I jump a F111 220ft cell or ZP 9 cell 200ft, loaded around 1 or so. I have fun, but don't believe I've taken both to the ragged edge yet. Yes, I play with risers, even try swooping type stuff, above 1k, then set up for landing. Why is it that people are in such a rush? Is it to be cool? I think (hope) more experienced/most people would agree that seeing a newbie smash in is not cool. Is it because I've had an injury relatively early on and realise this sport can kill you, even if you do everything right, (I didn't) and don't want to increase the odds. I don't know. One jumper at Perris said to me, 'my, thats an awfully big canopy' I replied 'yeah but my medical bills will be lower'. I ignored him after that. This guy was a D licensed jumper who should know better. i know I'm ranting but after speaking to a couple of the younger guys around the DZ who are in such a rush I'm getting a bit annoyed. Swooping etc is cool as fuck but until you csn continually setup for landings and be accurate its going to hurt/kill you. Please be careful newbies such as myself. I hate reading the incidents forum. Don't be presurised or think you can do what you cant. Learn to fly the shit out of what you've got and ask STAs or CCIs who've seen you fly what they think. Right, rant over, everyone have fun this weekend but be safe as you can. please. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #2 September 29, 2004 Soooo, I guess I should cancel my order for the Vengeance 120 huh? No matter how many people beat this concept to death, the ones that really need to hear it probably aren't here in the first place... that said, I will be pretty happy with my slightly sub~1.1 loading for the moment... at least until I get ~50 more jumps + some formal canopy training. Some people jump sub 1:1 w/l canopies for years... some don't and try to progress naturally and carefully... and some people lack sense and femur in for one reason or another... such is life... you can't save people from themselves in the long run.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #3 September 29, 2004 Quote I jump a F111 220ft cell or ZP 9 cell 200ft, loaded around 1 or so. I have fun, but don't believe I've taken both to the ragged edge yet. Yes, I play with risers, even try swooping type stuff, above 1k, then set up for landing. Excellent. Your canopy choice will make learning easier and reduce your chances of death/injury. Quote Why is it that people are in such a rush? Big canopies are boring unless you have just a few jumps (easily fixed) or the landing area is small and surrounded by cliffs/trees/boulders (not common at dropzones). Needing hundreds of jumps to master a canopy and Brian Germain's wingloading-never-exceed formula (roughly 1.0 + .1/100 jumps) don't change that. Quote Right, rant over, everyone have fun this weekend but be safe as you can. please. People have been ranting for at least the last nine years about premature down-sizing with no noticeable effect. If you want to do something positive take up a collection to fund a canopy seminar at your dropzone. More education has led people to be less stupid (carving vs. snap turns; front risers vs. toggles). Education combined with the de-stigmatization of high-performance landings may also lead more people to go faster under larger parachutes - I'd jump something much smaller for the speed if I was only landing straight-in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #4 September 29, 2004 all of the above and more. its cool, its fun, it allows you to do more things and get where you want even on a windy day. but its risky and it can hurt. you'll know when you're ready to downsize, and i doubt anyone else could know it for you. its all about how you feel. i'm close to 300 jumps and still on my S2 170 which i have had since jump # 30 or so. can i handle a 150? yes. must i downsize? not really. the main reason i dont downsize is $$, but i'm still having lots of fun on my 170, so there's no rush... take your time. you'll know when its time (and then wait some more... ) O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjiimmyyt 0 #5 September 29, 2004 I'm not waiting to downsize, dont feel the need, Im sure with the way I fly/land my CCI/DZO would OK a smaller canopy, the Wings on order will hold a 200 max. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #6 September 30, 2004 I finally just got to the point in the SIM to know what the hell you guys have been talking about with this downsizing thing. I'd rather be damn comfortable with my current size (no I don't have one yet. need more research and a few more jumps) than to worry about downsizing cause some jerk is looking at me cross-eyed for using a student sized canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZoneRat 0 #7 September 30, 2004 >"Big canopies are boring..." Quote Amazing. There we are hangin' by some nylon and string, our feet danglin' a thousand feet above the ground... and we yawn and go "man, this boat is sooo slooow..." lol. Skydiving's so wierd.“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dropzonefool 0 #8 September 30, 2004 What we do is get a GET WELL SOON CARD. All sign it and give it to the jumper before he hurts himself. For a Newbie it seems to mean something when it is signed by alot of D lic. # Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites atsaubrey 0 #9 September 30, 2004 I 100% agree. i seem to be the only jumper i know of who keeps upsizing. Could i handle a smaler canopy? Probably in the right conditions...but after a no wind landing this weekend, i'm happy with what i have. My point is, wring out what you have before moving "forward"!"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #10 September 30, 2004 If you're serious about your canopy flight, you will need to dedicate jumps towards learning how your canopy flies (regardless of whether or not it's a big or a small canopy). Flying a smaller canopy isn't a big deal. But it takes time, patience and dedicating jumps towards flying your canopy up high, flying it close to others and seeking instruction from qualified canopy control instructors so as to learn good habits and not get into any bad ones. It's good that someone with 75 jumps doesn't want to downsize. It shows that you have good sense and that the message is getting out to some. But the bottom line is how much time are you willing to spend towards learning the flight characteristics of each canopy you fly (it usually taking hundreds and hundreds of jumps per canopy to truly understand them). Show good judgement towards how you learn each canopy you'll ever use, seek training from qualified instructors (I'm off to do some ground launch training in CA in November to go along with some coaching I did in Perris Valley a few weeks ago), be honest with your goals and your self evaluation and you'll know when the time is right to change canopies. Notice I didn't say downsize. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Linas120 0 #11 September 30, 2004 There are good and bad matters related with the downsizing. As for the good ones - they vary from jumper to jumper, but the bad ones - in my very personal opinion - are rather common: 1. Downsizing too early 2. Downsizing drastically (190>119) 3. Downsizing only for the purpose of showing off (the jumper does not really feel confident with the smaller canopy, but s/he stick to the idea that the downsize will contribute to his/her reputation as a skillfull skydiver) 4. Having a very significant EGO, but pretty low actual skills of canopy piloting 5. Following the logic: the increase in the number of jumps should be directly proportional to the increase in wing loading (no. of jumps does not always correspond to the individual's skills) 6. "All guys in our DZ jump small canopies, therefore I need one either" type of thinking That's what I think of this issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #12 September 30, 2004 ...Why is it that people are in such a rush?...One jumper at Perris said to me, 'my, thats an awfully big canopy'... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Amazing. Peer pressure is alive & well. Glad it didn't faze you. Today marks 22 years since my first jump. For the past 11 years I jumped a 290 sq. ft. Star Trac. When I ordered new gear this year I wanted something a bit faster so I got a Triathalon 220. It's plenty fast enough, but I can sink it into a tight spot if necessary. I average fewer than 50 jumps per year and have no business under a highly-loaded canopy. Fortunately I have no desire to push that envelope. I sure admire you guys and love to watch, but if I wanted to be going that fast I wouldn't have pulled. There's no shame in landing last. Besides, hanging under canopy watching the scenery is no less thrilling now than it was in the old days. Remember why you wanted to make that first jump? Cheers Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites John4455 0 #13 September 30, 2004 I have been jumping for 7 1/2 years and have always been the kind of person to take things slow. I would always watch what other people were doing, and make my own decision about things like down sizing and swooping, among other things. In the brief 7 1/2 years that I have been jumping, I have seen people come and go into this sport. One thing that I have noticed was that it is often the person that stays on the ragged edge all the time that doesn't last. The kind of person that is in a hurry to learn to swoop, that can't wait to get one of those new smaller hot rod canopies that often gives it up. Sometimes, but not always because of injury. It just catches up with them. Thats just one of my personal observations. For me, I don't want to be the best, the fastest, the most daring skydiver. I just want to enjoy this sport for a long time. How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #14 September 30, 2004 I'm in agreement w/taking the proper time and training to downsize... I've had experienced jumpers (not good jumpers necessarily... just taking up space mostly...) tell me that I should/could be one a 150 but I want to get all I can out of the ZP 190 that I'm currently on before I step down to a ZP 170... ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #15 September 30, 2004 I jump a S2 170 and am happy with it... Personally, if it were totally down to flight and landing I would go as big as possible (I love freefall the canopy for me is a means to an end) Only reason I would consider going smaller is the size and weight of my container + the packing hassle. Think I'll stick where I am tho... mid size seems fair on both side of the coin Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reese04 0 #16 September 30, 2004 I think opinions on downsizing can be greatly influenced by the attitude of your home dz. I came from a very large, progressive dz with a strong hp canopy culutre. I never felt pressured to downsize, but my spectre 135 loaded at 1.1 was nothing special. Several weeks ago, I was visiting a much smaller dz and was asked by one of the locals what kind of canopy I had. After I told him, he said, "Oh, so you're a hot dog then. That's a small canopy." I thought he was joking at first, but no, he was being serious. A couple weeks after that, I went to another large dz and when asked the same question I got the reply, "Wow, that's a big boat of a canopy," from one of the experienced locals. Personally, I will be downsizing to a 120 shortly, but that is only after careful consideration and lots of practice and formal instruction on my 135. It is certainly not somthing that I'm feeling pressured to do. -Cass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #17 September 30, 2004 I agree... I was put on a 190 at jump 5 (at a w/l of 1:1 or so...in fact my Jumpmaster practically insisted I didn't know much about wingloading yet but didn't have a problem with it) on the other hand I regularly hear about DZs that have students on nothing smaller then 220s regardless of size... and I know that in the Air Force Freefall program they throw the students out with 300+ sq ft canopies w/10 sec delays for they're first jump. Scott ------------------------------------------------------------Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites soarfree 0 #18 September 30, 2004 My rush for wanting to downsize was financial. The 210 & 190 I was jumping as a student were more expensive to rent (and sometimes to pack) than the 170. I also wanted to buy gear and did not want to buy a 210 or 190 that I would be wanting to drop down from in another few months. Yes, I realize these were not safe thoughts and injuries are expensive. I'm just adding to the conversation of why people may want to downsize more quickly. (In the end I went to my instructor who assured me I had the skills to be safe on a 170 and helped me to downsize appropriately) Blue skies. Well behaved women rarely make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #19 September 30, 2004 I think the answer would be boredom. I love the canopy part of the Skydive. Ever since AFF I have used my risers I can flat turn my canopy at any time. So now I am getting bored. So I can understand why people want to down size. I can also see why some people think they should be able to progress faster then others. We are not all the same it is good to know what you pick up fast and what you don’t. I wanted to start on front riser approaches but I asked my AFF instructor what he thinks. He has always taken the time to explain to me what to do and why. He doesn’t just tell me “don’t do that” and for that I am very grateful. So I do think there is a right way and a wrong way of doing it. If you do have people who will take the time and set up steps and goals for you I say go head. Once you achieve step one go to step two and so on. Sorry for the long explanation I just felt like I wanted every one here to know what I mean. People tend to get very heated when discussing downsizing.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #20 September 30, 2004 Boredom coupled with inexperience and lack of knowledge. Its easy to get to a place where you figure nothing can go wrong. The reality of the situation is that people don't know enough about what can and will go wrong on any given canopy flight to recognize the difference between being "conservative" and being "on the edge." When you start to throw in what everyone else around you is doing the lack of knowledge becomes compounded with the preasures of being at the DZ. People see the hot shot swoopers flying around and "want to be like them." I don't think that there is anything wrong with this but for the most part there seems to be difficulty in grasping how much effort has been put into being that good. I think that when a person reaches the point where they are "comfortable" on the canopy that they are flying they want to step back up the the edge and push things a little further. They have grown acustom to the way that they feel and how they are treated for being at the edge with such little experience. This at least seems clear to me. By the time a person has reached that level of comfort which promotes the boredom that they are experience they have been "getting away with" being on the edge for what they feel is long enough to give them the experience to handle this new obstacle. Their friends are preasuring them to keep up because they too don't have the experience to know any better and the people who do are just "too old and being cautious." Hence every year we have to come on here punch up the incidents forum and read about someone with a few hundred jumps dieing under a 2.x stilletto or whatever HP canopy people seem to want this year. Everyone blames someone, a couple of new threads start up about a wingloading BSR, and its the fault of the person who sold them the canopy. I won't go on about which of them things I think are valid but I do think its clear that the skydiving community can't make up its mind. Should the few people who die every year cause us to further restrict everyone else? I don't know, I can't answer that question but it comes up on this forum every time one of "these" incidents occurs. (Thats not even counting the number of femur-to-wingloading/swooping related injuries that we probally don't hear about) I guess more on topic I can say that the canopy I jump is one that went from me pushing it to me being about where I should be. I mildly sprained an ankle with it too when I was much closer to the front of that spectrum. You learn a few things when you fuck up. That being said I am in no hurry to downsize. This comes back to the whole concept of knowledge and boredom. It seems that the people in that situation are not informed enough about the choices that they are making. People downsize for this or that reason. It seems to me that the only valid reason to downsize is to go faster. (Might be my inexperience speaking here.) Wanting to go faster can have lots of reasons though. My personal choice has been to learn how to make the canopy that I have go faster rather than learn how to fly a faster canopy. These choices both have risks associated with them, however it is easier to mitigate the risk factors of learning to make a canopy fly faster. If I get in a tight spot I can choose to not execute a "higher performance" landing. I can revert to the skills that I have flying my canopy in "standard" flight. If I was jumping a faster canopy I wouldn't have that option, I am stuck with what I have and I have to be able to save my ass or pay the consequences. I have a decent understanding of the canopy I am flying. I don't know everything, in fact I have barely scratched the surface of understanding how it flys but I do have the ability to push it more and learn more things. I am not spending my time learning the basics of flying the canopy. I think that this is key in being able to learn with more effeciency. If I went from the canopy I have now down a size and maybe to a more elliptical planform then I would be back to the basics for a couple hundred jumps because I would be lacking the experience of the basics. If I wait to downsize till I have learned how to do more advanced things on the canopy I have I don't have to keep spending a few hundred jumps every year learning basics. I can learn on something that is a little "safer" than a "highly loaded over-downsized canopy." People clearly think that to be good they have to jump the smallest canopy possible. I know that I won't bust out the 300+ foot swoops with my canopy, but I also recognize that I don't have the skill to fly a canopy that would let me. Its a different level of skill and most people don't recognize that. They think about it like most people think about cars. Faster the car the easier it is to win the race. That concept is just not the case. It might help win the race if you have the skill to take advantage of the higher performance features. Most people don't (and never will) when it comes to cars and the same can be said about canopies. I guess the bottom line is, its not the canopy that makes for good swoops, its the pilot. Every canopy has some range of performace that can be achieved. You have to have the skill to meet that range of performance or your going to get hurt. p.s. If you want to ignore my post because of my jump numbers go ahead. I don't have the patience to try and convince a person who doesn't want to listen. Experience and intelligence are not mutually exclusive, in fact those who lack the former need the latter to ensure that they don't die trying to gain said experience. I suppose you can always count on luck, but I was never one to go to the casino. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #21 September 30, 2004 Just like to congratulate you on probably the longest post I have ever seen Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #22 September 30, 2004 QuoteJust like to congratulate you on probably the longest post I have ever seen Some of the WL, RSL, and Cypress threads have MUCH longer posts. This one is a long read Click me~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamsville 0 #23 September 30, 2004 Quote: I'd jump something much smaller for the speed if I was only landing straight-in. In response, I think this is how some people start a downsizing. We can do the same straight-in approach and get more speed out of it, just for using a smaller canopy. As long as we can handle it. Then, if there is a temptation to try more aggresive turns near the ground before much practice, all of a sudden an accident happens. Make sure you know the reasons why you want to downsize for the way YOU fly, and then make a downsizing decision. I have canopies loading at 1.4 and 1.2 (2 Stilettos), and have for some time since I haven't decided to do aggresive landings. It's up to the jumper to decide where they really are on the curve. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #24 September 30, 2004 I hear ya... I followed advice given to me....when I was buying my first rig I bought a canopy that was right for me 'now' ( or then...if you get me) Well I did....and got a ZP 215 9 cell.... Its taught me plenty......and whenver I get the slight feeling that Its a bit big....I try and learn to do something new.....and realise everything that everyone has been saying.......learn to wring every ounce of performance outta your canopy before going smaller... On a big canopy you can probably get away with alot more....without having to sweat it having to do it right EVERY time on a canopy thats a tad too small for you ( and shittin yrself in the process) + big canopies and trash pack jobs....well I'll put it this way...I have never worried about it......it always opensAlot of peeps make you feel like a bad dawg if you have a big canopy.....but I say learn to fly it outta its skin and then downsizing (eventually) will be less of a 'gamble' and more of a sure thang...... And anyways...I wanna do BASE jumping so as more of a physchological aid...I dont wanna get used to seeing less than 200ft square foot above my head Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #25 September 30, 2004 I know a number of people that have been in the sport 10, 15, 20 and 25 years with thousands of jumps. SOME of them fly small Hp canopies. Many of them fly at a WL of 1.1ish. I asked a couple of them why they don’t fly a HP canopy and the most common responses were, "It's how you become an experienced skydiver" or “Because I don’t like titanium”. It made me think that I am in no hurry to downsize."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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dropzonefool 0 #8 September 30, 2004 What we do is get a GET WELL SOON CARD. All sign it and give it to the jumper before he hurts himself. For a Newbie it seems to mean something when it is signed by alot of D lic. # Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atsaubrey 0 #9 September 30, 2004 I 100% agree. i seem to be the only jumper i know of who keeps upsizing. Could i handle a smaler canopy? Probably in the right conditions...but after a no wind landing this weekend, i'm happy with what i have. My point is, wring out what you have before moving "forward"!"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #10 September 30, 2004 If you're serious about your canopy flight, you will need to dedicate jumps towards learning how your canopy flies (regardless of whether or not it's a big or a small canopy). Flying a smaller canopy isn't a big deal. But it takes time, patience and dedicating jumps towards flying your canopy up high, flying it close to others and seeking instruction from qualified canopy control instructors so as to learn good habits and not get into any bad ones. It's good that someone with 75 jumps doesn't want to downsize. It shows that you have good sense and that the message is getting out to some. But the bottom line is how much time are you willing to spend towards learning the flight characteristics of each canopy you fly (it usually taking hundreds and hundreds of jumps per canopy to truly understand them). Show good judgement towards how you learn each canopy you'll ever use, seek training from qualified instructors (I'm off to do some ground launch training in CA in November to go along with some coaching I did in Perris Valley a few weeks ago), be honest with your goals and your self evaluation and you'll know when the time is right to change canopies. Notice I didn't say downsize. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Linas120 0 #11 September 30, 2004 There are good and bad matters related with the downsizing. As for the good ones - they vary from jumper to jumper, but the bad ones - in my very personal opinion - are rather common: 1. Downsizing too early 2. Downsizing drastically (190>119) 3. Downsizing only for the purpose of showing off (the jumper does not really feel confident with the smaller canopy, but s/he stick to the idea that the downsize will contribute to his/her reputation as a skillfull skydiver) 4. Having a very significant EGO, but pretty low actual skills of canopy piloting 5. Following the logic: the increase in the number of jumps should be directly proportional to the increase in wing loading (no. of jumps does not always correspond to the individual's skills) 6. "All guys in our DZ jump small canopies, therefore I need one either" type of thinking That's what I think of this issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #12 September 30, 2004 ...Why is it that people are in such a rush?...One jumper at Perris said to me, 'my, thats an awfully big canopy'... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Amazing. Peer pressure is alive & well. Glad it didn't faze you. Today marks 22 years since my first jump. For the past 11 years I jumped a 290 sq. ft. Star Trac. When I ordered new gear this year I wanted something a bit faster so I got a Triathalon 220. It's plenty fast enough, but I can sink it into a tight spot if necessary. I average fewer than 50 jumps per year and have no business under a highly-loaded canopy. Fortunately I have no desire to push that envelope. I sure admire you guys and love to watch, but if I wanted to be going that fast I wouldn't have pulled. There's no shame in landing last. Besides, hanging under canopy watching the scenery is no less thrilling now than it was in the old days. Remember why you wanted to make that first jump? Cheers Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #13 September 30, 2004 I have been jumping for 7 1/2 years and have always been the kind of person to take things slow. I would always watch what other people were doing, and make my own decision about things like down sizing and swooping, among other things. In the brief 7 1/2 years that I have been jumping, I have seen people come and go into this sport. One thing that I have noticed was that it is often the person that stays on the ragged edge all the time that doesn't last. The kind of person that is in a hurry to learn to swoop, that can't wait to get one of those new smaller hot rod canopies that often gives it up. Sometimes, but not always because of injury. It just catches up with them. Thats just one of my personal observations. For me, I don't want to be the best, the fastest, the most daring skydiver. I just want to enjoy this sport for a long time. How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #14 September 30, 2004 I'm in agreement w/taking the proper time and training to downsize... I've had experienced jumpers (not good jumpers necessarily... just taking up space mostly...) tell me that I should/could be one a 150 but I want to get all I can out of the ZP 190 that I'm currently on before I step down to a ZP 170... ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #15 September 30, 2004 I jump a S2 170 and am happy with it... Personally, if it were totally down to flight and landing I would go as big as possible (I love freefall the canopy for me is a means to an end) Only reason I would consider going smaller is the size and weight of my container + the packing hassle. Think I'll stick where I am tho... mid size seems fair on both side of the coin Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reese04 0 #16 September 30, 2004 I think opinions on downsizing can be greatly influenced by the attitude of your home dz. I came from a very large, progressive dz with a strong hp canopy culutre. I never felt pressured to downsize, but my spectre 135 loaded at 1.1 was nothing special. Several weeks ago, I was visiting a much smaller dz and was asked by one of the locals what kind of canopy I had. After I told him, he said, "Oh, so you're a hot dog then. That's a small canopy." I thought he was joking at first, but no, he was being serious. A couple weeks after that, I went to another large dz and when asked the same question I got the reply, "Wow, that's a big boat of a canopy," from one of the experienced locals. Personally, I will be downsizing to a 120 shortly, but that is only after careful consideration and lots of practice and formal instruction on my 135. It is certainly not somthing that I'm feeling pressured to do. -Cass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #17 September 30, 2004 I agree... I was put on a 190 at jump 5 (at a w/l of 1:1 or so...in fact my Jumpmaster practically insisted I didn't know much about wingloading yet but didn't have a problem with it) on the other hand I regularly hear about DZs that have students on nothing smaller then 220s regardless of size... and I know that in the Air Force Freefall program they throw the students out with 300+ sq ft canopies w/10 sec delays for they're first jump. Scott ------------------------------------------------------------Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soarfree 0 #18 September 30, 2004 My rush for wanting to downsize was financial. The 210 & 190 I was jumping as a student were more expensive to rent (and sometimes to pack) than the 170. I also wanted to buy gear and did not want to buy a 210 or 190 that I would be wanting to drop down from in another few months. Yes, I realize these were not safe thoughts and injuries are expensive. I'm just adding to the conversation of why people may want to downsize more quickly. (In the end I went to my instructor who assured me I had the skills to be safe on a 170 and helped me to downsize appropriately) Blue skies. Well behaved women rarely make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #19 September 30, 2004 I think the answer would be boredom. I love the canopy part of the Skydive. Ever since AFF I have used my risers I can flat turn my canopy at any time. So now I am getting bored. So I can understand why people want to down size. I can also see why some people think they should be able to progress faster then others. We are not all the same it is good to know what you pick up fast and what you don’t. I wanted to start on front riser approaches but I asked my AFF instructor what he thinks. He has always taken the time to explain to me what to do and why. He doesn’t just tell me “don’t do that” and for that I am very grateful. So I do think there is a right way and a wrong way of doing it. If you do have people who will take the time and set up steps and goals for you I say go head. Once you achieve step one go to step two and so on. Sorry for the long explanation I just felt like I wanted every one here to know what I mean. People tend to get very heated when discussing downsizing.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #20 September 30, 2004 Boredom coupled with inexperience and lack of knowledge. Its easy to get to a place where you figure nothing can go wrong. The reality of the situation is that people don't know enough about what can and will go wrong on any given canopy flight to recognize the difference between being "conservative" and being "on the edge." When you start to throw in what everyone else around you is doing the lack of knowledge becomes compounded with the preasures of being at the DZ. People see the hot shot swoopers flying around and "want to be like them." I don't think that there is anything wrong with this but for the most part there seems to be difficulty in grasping how much effort has been put into being that good. I think that when a person reaches the point where they are "comfortable" on the canopy that they are flying they want to step back up the the edge and push things a little further. They have grown acustom to the way that they feel and how they are treated for being at the edge with such little experience. This at least seems clear to me. By the time a person has reached that level of comfort which promotes the boredom that they are experience they have been "getting away with" being on the edge for what they feel is long enough to give them the experience to handle this new obstacle. Their friends are preasuring them to keep up because they too don't have the experience to know any better and the people who do are just "too old and being cautious." Hence every year we have to come on here punch up the incidents forum and read about someone with a few hundred jumps dieing under a 2.x stilletto or whatever HP canopy people seem to want this year. Everyone blames someone, a couple of new threads start up about a wingloading BSR, and its the fault of the person who sold them the canopy. I won't go on about which of them things I think are valid but I do think its clear that the skydiving community can't make up its mind. Should the few people who die every year cause us to further restrict everyone else? I don't know, I can't answer that question but it comes up on this forum every time one of "these" incidents occurs. (Thats not even counting the number of femur-to-wingloading/swooping related injuries that we probally don't hear about) I guess more on topic I can say that the canopy I jump is one that went from me pushing it to me being about where I should be. I mildly sprained an ankle with it too when I was much closer to the front of that spectrum. You learn a few things when you fuck up. That being said I am in no hurry to downsize. This comes back to the whole concept of knowledge and boredom. It seems that the people in that situation are not informed enough about the choices that they are making. People downsize for this or that reason. It seems to me that the only valid reason to downsize is to go faster. (Might be my inexperience speaking here.) Wanting to go faster can have lots of reasons though. My personal choice has been to learn how to make the canopy that I have go faster rather than learn how to fly a faster canopy. These choices both have risks associated with them, however it is easier to mitigate the risk factors of learning to make a canopy fly faster. If I get in a tight spot I can choose to not execute a "higher performance" landing. I can revert to the skills that I have flying my canopy in "standard" flight. If I was jumping a faster canopy I wouldn't have that option, I am stuck with what I have and I have to be able to save my ass or pay the consequences. I have a decent understanding of the canopy I am flying. I don't know everything, in fact I have barely scratched the surface of understanding how it flys but I do have the ability to push it more and learn more things. I am not spending my time learning the basics of flying the canopy. I think that this is key in being able to learn with more effeciency. If I went from the canopy I have now down a size and maybe to a more elliptical planform then I would be back to the basics for a couple hundred jumps because I would be lacking the experience of the basics. If I wait to downsize till I have learned how to do more advanced things on the canopy I have I don't have to keep spending a few hundred jumps every year learning basics. I can learn on something that is a little "safer" than a "highly loaded over-downsized canopy." People clearly think that to be good they have to jump the smallest canopy possible. I know that I won't bust out the 300+ foot swoops with my canopy, but I also recognize that I don't have the skill to fly a canopy that would let me. Its a different level of skill and most people don't recognize that. They think about it like most people think about cars. Faster the car the easier it is to win the race. That concept is just not the case. It might help win the race if you have the skill to take advantage of the higher performance features. Most people don't (and never will) when it comes to cars and the same can be said about canopies. I guess the bottom line is, its not the canopy that makes for good swoops, its the pilot. Every canopy has some range of performace that can be achieved. You have to have the skill to meet that range of performance or your going to get hurt. p.s. If you want to ignore my post because of my jump numbers go ahead. I don't have the patience to try and convince a person who doesn't want to listen. Experience and intelligence are not mutually exclusive, in fact those who lack the former need the latter to ensure that they don't die trying to gain said experience. I suppose you can always count on luck, but I was never one to go to the casino. ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #21 September 30, 2004 Just like to congratulate you on probably the longest post I have ever seen Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #22 September 30, 2004 QuoteJust like to congratulate you on probably the longest post I have ever seen Some of the WL, RSL, and Cypress threads have MUCH longer posts. This one is a long read Click me~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #23 September 30, 2004 Quote: I'd jump something much smaller for the speed if I was only landing straight-in. In response, I think this is how some people start a downsizing. We can do the same straight-in approach and get more speed out of it, just for using a smaller canopy. As long as we can handle it. Then, if there is a temptation to try more aggresive turns near the ground before much practice, all of a sudden an accident happens. Make sure you know the reasons why you want to downsize for the way YOU fly, and then make a downsizing decision. I have canopies loading at 1.4 and 1.2 (2 Stilettos), and have for some time since I haven't decided to do aggresive landings. It's up to the jumper to decide where they really are on the curve. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #24 September 30, 2004 I hear ya... I followed advice given to me....when I was buying my first rig I bought a canopy that was right for me 'now' ( or then...if you get me) Well I did....and got a ZP 215 9 cell.... Its taught me plenty......and whenver I get the slight feeling that Its a bit big....I try and learn to do something new.....and realise everything that everyone has been saying.......learn to wring every ounce of performance outta your canopy before going smaller... On a big canopy you can probably get away with alot more....without having to sweat it having to do it right EVERY time on a canopy thats a tad too small for you ( and shittin yrself in the process) + big canopies and trash pack jobs....well I'll put it this way...I have never worried about it......it always opensAlot of peeps make you feel like a bad dawg if you have a big canopy.....but I say learn to fly it outta its skin and then downsizing (eventually) will be less of a 'gamble' and more of a sure thang...... And anyways...I wanna do BASE jumping so as more of a physchological aid...I dont wanna get used to seeing less than 200ft square foot above my head Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #25 September 30, 2004 I know a number of people that have been in the sport 10, 15, 20 and 25 years with thousands of jumps. SOME of them fly small Hp canopies. Many of them fly at a WL of 1.1ish. I asked a couple of them why they don’t fly a HP canopy and the most common responses were, "It's how you become an experienced skydiver" or “Because I don’t like titanium”. It made me think that I am in no hurry to downsize."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
