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efs4ever

Should "tandem passenger only" jumpers be charged EXTRA by the DZO when the TI uses his own gear?

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And if you guys bounced, then it would look as if it was one of my tandems.


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If you are visiting a drop zone, the DZO does not know you personally, he is taking on some added risk letting someone do a tandem there.


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seems like the dz is taking on an "extra" liability by letting a TM that is not under some sort of contractual obligation jump with an unlicensed passenger


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Liability Insurance is a bitch in this industry.



This is an interesting thread. There are a couple folks who talked about added risk and added liability to the DZ.

If a skydiver travels out of town and stops into the local DZ to make a jump. Someone at the DZ should check their gear, USPA membership card, log book, maybe talk to them a little bit, have them fill out a waiver before selling them some jump tickets. Basically the DZO will do the best they can to limit their exposure due to negligence by making sure that this unknown jumper is carrying all the the credentials necessary to authorize them to make a skydive. If the checkout of the credentials includes confiming an appropriatly rated tandem or AFF instructor, I don't see how the DZ has added any greater exposure to themselves or any greater liability or risk by allowing a skydiver to make a skydive within the scope and authorization of their ratings and documented experience.

Now, if the DZ let a new arrival make any kind of skydive without checking out their credentials first, then the DZO could be found negligent and add risk and liability to the DZ if the DZ let an unqualified and/or unrated skydiver make a jump that resulted in an injury to themselves and/or someone.

As long as the DZ does their due diligence in confirming that the newly arrived (unknown) jumper meets a certain level of currency and ratings shouldn't they be allowed to make any type of jump within the scope of their ratings and abilities?

Are those with the opinion that there is added risk implying that there is a higher incidence of injury or damage with a tandem skydive than a normal fun jumper? Is this why you think a tandem type of jump would subject the DZ/DZO to a higher likelihood of a lawsuit? Or are you saying that the waiver filled out by a visiting tandem passenger is less valid for the tandem passenger than it is for the visiting tandem instructor? Doesn't the DZ/DZO rely primarily on the waiver to limit their exposure to a lawsuit by anyone who takes a seat on the jump plane be it fun jumper, instructor, student, observer or pilot?

I'm just trying to understand how the DZ is exposed to a higher level of risk and/or liability with an appropriately rated skydiver making a tandem skydive.

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Are those with the opinion that there is added risk implying that there is a higher incidence of injury or damage with a tandem skydive than a normal fun jumper?



Absolutly. As a TI yourself you should realize a Tandem jump carries far more risk than a solo fun jump on conventional gear.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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When did a tandem become just another skydive? This is one thing that definitely got forgotten in this thread! What proof does the dzo have that you are any good at tandems. We get plenty of so called tandem masters drifting through here during the winter months, after a few jumps, the realization they are going to hurt someone is eveident. Another thing, your so called experienced tandem passenger, what proof does she have that she has made several jumps? I still don't see what the big deal of a few extra dollars is. Hell, there are drop zones out there that don't want even experience jumpers at them, you are complaining about a few extra dollars, give it up!
blue skies,

art

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Are those with the opinion that there is added risk implying that there is a higher incidence of injury or damage with a tandem skydive than a normal fun jumper?

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Absolutly. As a TI yourself you should realize a Tandem jump carries far more risk than a solo fun jump on conventional gear.

-jp-


My question that you replied to asked 'where is the higher incidence of injury'.
I've seen more solo jumpers carried away on a stretcher than tandem jumpers. But I have not seen a study that will show a higher incidence of injury for tandem vs solo jumpers. So, I still don't know what type of jump has more injury.

Of course a tandem jump has far more responsibility and there are potentially more components and aspects to the jump for the TI to manage and be aware of and be capable of handling than there is for a solo jumper.

But I think level of risk is a relative thing managed by many variables. Given a new 'A' license holder with 25 jumps and a seasoned veteran with 10,000 jumps and 8,000 tandems. Where is the greater risk of injury? Add in other variables, higher winds, off dz landing, landing area traffic, etc. Which jumper is at a greater risk of injury? And thus greater exposure to the DZ/DZO?

Yet a drop zone will often let the first jumper buy a jump ticket but will not let the second one buy two tickets and make a 'tandem' style jump.

There are a lot of different types of skydiving that add different types of risk. Tandem, wingsuit, tunnel, base, aff, head down, swooping, crw, camera and more I'm sure. That is the great thing about this sport. We can continue to learn new disciplines. Each discipline adds new things to be managed and if they are not managed adequately there is added risk. If there is appropriate training and then a certain amount of experience and practice, risk is minimized.

Again, I was trying to focus on exposure to the DZ/DZO. I'm not sure yet that a qualified (visiting) TI will expose the DZ to greater liability (especially carrying their own friend/relative/student), than some unknown newbie who swoops himself into the spectator area.

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My response would be yes. Let me piece out the numbers:

$30- TI fee
$20- student slot
$20- TI slot
$10- pack job
$25- rig replacement and maintenance

So, about $100 or so to produce a tandem. I've talked with several DZOs in the past and they all give me about the same range to produce a tandem (depending on what they pay the packers and such). So, the DZ can expect to net about $50 to $75 on a tandem jump depending on their local market. If you choose to waive your fee, pay your own slots, pack your own rig and absorb the wear then the DZ should just be looking for some of the net. Why would I be looking for some of the net to come back to me? Well, you are jumping on my waivers and I'm taking the risk. Of course, if you were a friend of mine and I knew ya I'd probably let it slide provided I'm not turning a paying customer away.

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When did a tandem become just another skydive? This is one thing that definitely got forgotten in this thread! What proof does the dzo have that you are any good at tandems. We get plenty of so called tandem masters drifting through here during the winter months, after a few jumps, the realization they are going to hurt someone is eveident. Another thing, your so called experienced tandem passenger, what proof does she have that she has made several jumps? I still don't see what the big deal of a few extra dollars is. Hell, there are drop zones out there that don't want even experience jumpers at them, you are complaining about a few extra dollars, give it up!


One of the main points of my post was that the DZ/DZO needs to check out and confirm the credentials of a visiting TI.

If you have let tandem masters drift through and take commercial/paying customers on a tandem jump and later realized that they were going to hurt someone, then you have not checked out and confirmed that they are qualified to be a tandem master at your dz. Now you have exposed the DZ/DZO to added risk of a law suit because you have not done your due diligence to protect your customers. You are now negligent and liable.

Because a tandem skydive is not just another skydive, a DZ/DZO may want to go a few extra steps to confirm a visiting TI level of competence. This may include letters of recommendation from the TI home DZ(s) or from more than one DZ that the visiting TI has done tandems at. Maybe videos of their tandems or maybe they should take a DZ staff person as a tandem passenger first. I don't see any problem with a DZ asking for items like this and a visiting TI should be happy to jump through 'resonable' hoops to provide them if they really want to make a tandem jump at a distant/new DZ.

I simply think that a TI traveling to visit friends/relatives in a distant city should be able to visit the local DZ and take their friends/relatives on a skydive.

Do you think there is a difference in a visiting TI taking their own friend/relative on a tandem jump and getting into the DZ rotation and taking DZ customers on a tandem jump. Do you think there is a difference in the amount of exposure/risk to the DZ for these two different situations?

Your comment about money must have been for the other guy. I have no issue about money. A DZ can set what ever rate they want to charge for what ever type of activity they want to sell. Different types of jumps, packing service, training/coaching, whatever, that is up to them. Then I can decide if I want to pay that price for that service.

I don't think the qualifications or number of jumps of the passenger matter at all in this discussion. The responsibility for accepting risk does fall on the passenger as they agree to in the waiver (the same as anyone who jumps from a plane.) The TI is responsible for that jump just like the pilot of the plane is responsible for the flight. The responsibility for safety rests on the TI and the DZ/DZO.

My issue is that I would like to visit a drop zone and make skydives that I am qualified and rated to make.

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When did a tandem become just another skydive? This is one thing that definitely got forgotten in this thread! What proof does the dzo have that you are any good at tandems. We get plenty of so called tandem masters drifting through here during the winter months, after a few jumps, the realization they are going to hurt someone is eveident. Another thing, your so called experienced tandem passenger, what proof does she have that she has made several jumps? I still don't see what the big deal of a few extra dollars is. Hell, there are drop zones out there that don't want even experience jumpers at them, you are complaining about a few extra dollars, give it up!



Well, I have a card that says the RWS qualifiies me as an Examiner. I'm on the internet as a staffer at a major DZ. I have a logbook full of tandems. Aaand I have a well used Sigma Rig with my NAME embroidered on it. B|

My WHOLE LOGBOOK is
HERE TOO!!
V
V
v
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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We got the last two slots before the plane took off that would have been EMPTY.



About the only thing I can figure is that most C-182 DZ's have a 3 person minimum for a jump. About the only way the operation can even break even.



It was a CARAVAN.
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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My response would be yes. Let me piece out the numbers:

$30- TI fee
$20- student slot
$20- TI slot
$10- pack job
$25- rig replacement and maintenance

So, about $100 or so to produce a tandem. I've talked with several DZOs in the past and they all give me about the same range to produce a tandem (depending on what they pay the packers and such). So, the DZ can expect to net about $50 to $75 on a tandem jump depending on their local market. If you choose to waive your fee, pay your own slots, pack your own rig and absorb the wear then the DZ should just be looking for some of the net. Why would I be looking for some of the net to come back to me? Well, you are jumping on my waivers and I'm taking the risk. Of course, if you were a friend of mine and I knew ya I'd probably let it slide provided I'm not turning a paying customer away.



1. We are simply two fun jumpers on one rig.
2. Other fun jumpers jump on your waivers too. (They bounce alot more often than tandems.)
3. Out of town fun jumpers cannot be "risk assessed" as easily as someone like me
4. My girlfriend from out of town is absolutely not likely to be a paying customer, so your business does not suffer.
5. At a premium price, we don't hang out and make more than one jump. (We made a days worth at Moss Point and had a blast. Thank's Mike)
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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***We got the last two slots before the plane took off that would have been EMPTY.



About the only thing I can figure is that most C-182 DZ's have a 3 person minimum for a jump. About the only way the operation can even break even.



It was a CARAVAN.



Ahhh... OK, I'm with you. You took the last two empty slots to fill the A/C. My apologies.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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We'll be heading West on December 22 for our little winter vacation. Last year we jumped at Taft and Marana. This year we hope to jump at Marana again as well as Coolidge and possibly Eloy. (Haven't talked to them yet, but we jumped all of their planes at Rantoul) Might even end up in California. Looking forward to hearing from friendly DZs who will welcome us without an excessive price tag. :)
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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Might even end up in California. Looking forward to hearing from friendly DZs who will welcome us without an excessive price tag.



Bring you GF and come and jump all you'd like in Lodi at The Parachute Center.
2 slots @ $15 each from an Otter or Beech 99 from 13,000ft ;)

Let me know when your heading this way.....:)


Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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Last year we had a tandem master with all the credentials show up at our dz. He even had a letter of recommendation from a very well known skydiver. Well to make a long story short, he is sitting in a wheelchair with no feeling from the neck down, the only good thing that happened was the student wasn't hurt too badly. So, I really don't care about credentials anymore!
blue skies,

art

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I've had several people come by with their students and make jumps at my place. What we do is I charge 20 bucks plus lift tickets for the students that are brought out independently by other USPA instructors, and they charge what they will if anything for their instruction. I've had many friends come by and want to take their wives or friends on a jump and that is different, it's just lift tickets then. It's best to just talk with the manager and be up front with what's going on, it's all in fun anyway.

jumpervali

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Added actual risk? I wouldn't say so, BUT if there was a tandem fatality or serious injury at a DZ, that could destroy the DZ publically. Think about it.



They'd probably busting down the doors to get in there and jump. I know my own interest in skydiving was piqued after a fatality at a local dz [:/]

In my 26 years of jumping, I'm not aware of a DZ being destroyed because of a fatality. (Except the one up in the Northwest somewhere that was being run like the "Pecos School of Skydiving" and deserved to be shut down.)
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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There was one that went under in Indiana only about 3-4 years ago after a Static Line Fatality. I'm not sure the exact relationship between the fatality and the closing... but it seemed to happen with in a few months of the death.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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>>I have some girlfriends who are experienced tandem jumpers. (Hope they aren't reading this) I own my own tandem equipment, have the appropriate ratings and provide all gear. I've jumped at many DZ's with this configuration, and all just charge us for the slots.

We've made jumps at Rantoul, Skydive Texas, Sky's the limit, Beeville, Texas, Skydive Houston, Skydive Spaceland, Marana Skydiving Center, Taft, Skydive San Marcos (That was just a favor for a soldier, but thanks Phil) Skydive USA and Moss Point. (Had a great time at every place, THANKS TO ALL OF YOU)

Today, however, after traveling many miles to visit an out of town place I was shocked to find that the DZO wanted an extra FIFTY BUCKS for us to make a jump together. I talked him down to 25, made the jump and left. Instead of us getting several jumps, we had to leave or go broke jumping.

Should an experienced jumper be charged EXTRA just because she chooses only to ride on a tandem, and the DZ does NOT provide any of the gear? <<


Just a thought.....what if the dzo stated to you that tandem jumps were $200 at his dz, and he would pay you $30 as a TI and an extra $10 for packing. or he will give you $60 for using your own gear and you pack it up... Then what if he told you there was a contract to sign between Instructors and the dzo for lilability issues. ... Then said you would have to wait till the close of business on sunday to receive your check for $60 and then ask for your social security # for income tax reasons.

that would have been a lot of BS for you to do a jump with your girlfriend, huh?
This is what i overheard while visiting a dz last year. For the price of 2 slots.. its a deal, and the extra $25-50 bucks is not unreal. From what I have learned in my limited experience is DZO have the ability to "set up shop" the way they feel best protects there livelihood.:)

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>>>>Just a thought.....what if the dzo stated to you that tandem jumps were $200 at his dz, and he would pay you $30 as a TI and an extra $10 for packing. or he will give you $60 for using your own gear and you pack it up... Then what if he told you there was a contract to sign between Instructors and the dzo for lilability issues. ... Then said you would have to wait till the close of business on sunday to receive your check for $60 and then ask for your social security # for income tax reasons. <<<<<

Been there and done that too. I've showed up at DZs and been put to work! Rhonda had to wait till I finished nine of their tandems before she finally got one. (for slots) :|
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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Are those with the opinion that there is added risk implying that there is a higher incidence of injury or damage with a tandem skydive than a normal fun jumper?



Absolutly. As a TI yourself you should realize a Tandem jump carries far more risk than a solo fun jump on conventional gear.



Actually, a tandem with an "experienced" passenger is much more routine than what you might get with a scared person doing their first jump. I'm not the least bit worried about ANY of my experienced girlfriends hosing me. Even Rhonda, with her knees up body position on EVERY jump. [:/]
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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I travel with my tandem rig alot.
I never assume I will be able to use it at any DZ.
It is up to the descretion of the DZO so I always call ahead and make arrangments.

I always expect to pay 2 slots plus $20 and will offer this.
It is a kind jesture for any DZO to allow me to use my gear and take a tandem at their DZ not knowing any thing more about me than what my documents say.

Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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I travel with my tandem rig alot.
I never assume I will be able to use it at any DZ.
It is up to the descretion of the DZO so I always call ahead and make arrangments.

I always expect to pay 2 slots plus $20 and will offer this.
It is a kind jesture for any DZO to allow me to use my gear and take a tandem at their DZ not knowing any thing more about me than what my documents say.

Chris



Back in the days when tandem was still "experimental" I might tend to support paying more. It's not experimental, though. Two slots for two fun jumpers is still two slots. How would you feel if you happened to show up solo with your own gear at a tandem mill by mistake, and the DZO wanted FIFTY or even TWENTY extra from you just so he could make mo money. >:( That seems to be what this operation was. [:/]

I do keep the local packers employed, though. :)
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

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