PhreeZone 15 #26 December 7, 2004 QuoteI do not cry for Mike, but if DeSantis did it once he could do it again. There are a few DZ's in his state that have came out and said they will not be filing incident reports for anything less then a fatality now since they don't want a whole list of things being used against them in the future. Have a jumper break a leg and you file an incident report on it, then later have the USPA turn that over to someone sueing you to prove that your operation is unsafe since there were injuries there in the past? No wonder the number of incident reports for nonfatalities has decreased while injuries have increased in the last 5 years. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #27 December 7, 2004 QuoteThere are a few DZ's in his state that have came out and said they will not be filing incident reports for anything less then a fatality now since they don't want a whole list of things being used against them in the future. Have a jumper break a leg and you file an incident report on it, then later have the USPA turn that over to someone sueing you to prove that your operation is unsafe since there were injuries there in the past? No wonder the number of incident reports for nonfatalities has decreased while injuries have increased in the last 5 years. The USPA continues to do stupid things. They should be collecting data on accidents to try and find ways toprevent them. But by their own actions and the lack of action for people who act like a lone wolf, they hamstring themselves."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #28 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuote By suing DeSantis he was suing USPA. Does anyone know what reports or documents, if any, were released or is it all, "he said, I heard, I know someone who said" shit. The bottom line in all this is WE the Members of the USPA got sued by Michael Hawkes because JOHN DeSANTIS acted outside the RULES of OUR association. Do you know what, if any reports or documents were released to whom. If you can't answer the question just say so. Everyone wants to point a finger but i don't see anyone with facts. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #29 December 7, 2004 QuoteDo you know what, if any reports or documents were released to whom. If you can't answer the question just say so. First off it shouldn't matter what documents were release, the facts are DESANTIS released them against in rules of the USPA. Desantis gave the incident report to the plantiffs attorney. After 30 days he was suppose to destroy his copy. He purposely did not comply. I'm pissed! Check out the BOD minutes for the meeting he was slapped him on the wrist. Since you have no problem with Desantis and his actions, YOU can pay the legal bill. I will expect my check in the mail! JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #30 December 7, 2004 (not a direct reply to anyone...) What if DeSantis was "whistleblowing"? Often, whistleblowers must operate outside the boundaries set by their company/union/fraternity/whatever to get things handled. Often, a beaurocracy has rules in place to protect themselves, and if those rules prevent the whistleblower from blowing the whistle, then shouldn't those rules be re-evaluated and re-determined? In other words, since we don't really know what docs were sent around, or how DeSantis came to have them, it would be interesting to discover that before passing judgment on him. We tend to support whistleblowers even when they break the law to do so....why can't we get the information here before hanging someone when we don't have factual data yet to do so with? Or is this a case that as long as it doesn't affect us, it's all right to support the whistle blower, but when it affects us we withdraw that openminded attitude? I dunno. Just throwing this out there. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #31 December 7, 2004 The notion of trust is completely inconsistent with his actions on this matter. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32 December 7, 2004 Quote In other words, since we don't really know what docs were sent around, or how DeSantis came to have them, it would be interesting to discover that before passing judgment on him. Quote Boy...that was a while ago I thought! I don't remember the exact details...and it's not my place to infer anything. John has always been an up front, straight forward guy, with the organizations best interest at heart. Same as Gary Peek... As I recall... John was acting not as a member of the board out to hurt a DZO, but somewhat as a 'private' business person. The materials were of the nature of records, that could have been procured through legal channels, but that formality was circumvented because of his relationship in the organization. The slap on the wrist so to speak... Is about HOW not WHAT happened. At least that's how I remember it went... I could be wrong. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #33 December 7, 2004 Quote(not a direct reply to anyone...) What if DeSantis was "whistleblowing"? Often, whistleblowers must operate outside the boundaries set by their company/union/fraternity/whatever to get things handled. Often, a beaurocracy has rules in place to protect themselves, and if those rules prevent the whistleblower from blowing the whistle, then shouldn't those rules be re-evaluated and re-determined? Generally speaking we reserve "whistleblower" for someone within the organization that has a problem with safety, ethics, etc. I don't believe that fits in this case. It seems that there was a clear violation of privileged information in this case, creating the ethics violation by Mr. D. Had he been an attorney he would face disciplinary action and likely loss of license from his state bar association for such an action. As has been pointed out, DZs are now reluctant to send accident data to USPA, a situation that negatively affects all of us.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #34 December 7, 2004 Is the seemingly "light" reprimand of John D an idication that the executive board would have approved of the release anyway? I have not read the minutes of the meeting so I don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #35 December 7, 2004 Quote Is the seemingly "light" reprimand of John D an idication that the executive board would have approved of the release anyway? Quote That's kind of the way I interpreted the whole thing. Since it wasn't done the long slow legal way, and there wasn't a record of 'discovery' or whatever.. The DZ that was being sued over an injury / liability issue, was somewhat blind sided in court because the plaintiff had better records in regard to his operational history than he did. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #36 December 8, 2004 QuoteIn other words, since we don't really know what docs were sent around, or how DeSantis came to have them, it would be interesting to discover that before passing judgment on him. They were incident reports voluntarily submited to USPA by Hawks, and his DZ staff. Desantis's actions in this matter is the largest reason many DZ's are no longer reporting incidents to the USPA. The reports from USPA DZ's to USPA HQ droped off hugely right after this.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #37 December 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteDo you know what, if any reports or documents were released to whom. If you can't answer the question just say so. First off it shouldn't matter what documents were release, the facts are DESANTIS released them against in rules of the USPA. Desantis gave the incident report to the plantiffs attorney. After 30 days he was suppose to destroy his copy. He purposely did not comply. I'm pissed! Check out the BOD minutes for the meeting he was slapped him on the wrist. Since you have no problem with Desantis and his actions, YOU can pay the legal bill. I will expect my check in the mail! Judy First off, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I had or didn't have a problem with John Desantis's actions. Second, as members of USPA we will all pay the legal bill, this one and any other that comes along. We also pay for the insurance that will come this bill. It is a standard practice in business to insure officers against suit. I asked if anyone knew what reports/documents, if any were released. Many people were running their mouth, but no one answered. Your have stated:QuoteDesantis gave the incident report to the plantiffs attorney. After 30 days he was suppose to destroy his copy Do You know this to be fact or what you have heard. If you know it to be fact would you name the source. Thank you for the information. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #38 December 8, 2004 QuoteWell I am not Upset that the USPA defended him. I AM upset he was not removed for a clear violation of his job duties for a personal grudge. Exactly.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #39 December 8, 2004 QuoteDo You know this to be fact or what you have heard. If you know it to be fact would you name the source. Thank you for the information. Former USPA Regional and National Director Ray Ferrell for one. Several others in the "know" as well.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #40 December 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteDo You know this to be fact or what you have heard. If you know it to be fact would you name the source. Thank you for the information. Former USPA Regional and National Director Ray Ferrell for one. Several others in the "know" as well. Do you consider Ray to be unbiased when it comes to Hawkes and DeSanitis?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #41 December 8, 2004 QuoteDo you consider Ray to be unbiased when it comes to Hawkes and DeSanitis? Depends what you consider unbiased. He doesn't much care for either man, but he definately thinks Desantis did wrong, and should have been removed from office when he was impeached. It is my opinion that he has no personal vendetta against either man.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #42 December 8, 2004 Thanks for the straight forward answer, they are hard to come by it seems. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #43 December 8, 2004 QuoteSecond, as members of USPA we will all pay the legal bill, this one and any other that comes along. We also pay for the insurance that will come this bill. It is a standard practice in business to insure officers against suit. This is the problem with having to join a club to gain access to public airspace. Once again the lawyers are the clear winners. Why do we put up with this sort of self inflected punishment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #44 December 8, 2004 Quote Former USPA Regional and National Director Ray Ferrell for one. Several others in the "know" as well. Have you ever talked to John D about it to get his side of the story?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #45 December 8, 2004 >Have you ever talked to John D about it to get his side of the story? Have you?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #46 December 8, 2004 Quote Have you? Do you think I would have suggested it, had I not? Yeah, I've talked with John D several different times about a couple of the things he's been involved with that are somewhat controversial. To me he's always made a pretty good case for what he's done.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #47 December 8, 2004 Quote>Have you ever talked to John D about it to get his side of the story? Have you? Yes I have, on several occasions. I am aware of all the documents involved and how they came to be in John's possession. Are you? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #48 December 8, 2004 QuoteQuote>Have you ever talked to John D about it to get his side of the story? Have you? Yes I have, on several occasions. I am aware of all the documents involved and how they came to be in John's possession. Then why do you keep asking if we know which documents. You made it appear that you didn't know which documents we are all referring to and that we are all just making this up. The fact still remains that he violated the trust of the members by doing what he did. His actions cost me money as a member of the USPA. I would have much rather seen that money spent on something productive and useful to skydiving instead of his ego. He does not have my best interest as a skydiver at heart. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #49 December 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote>Have you ever talked to John D about it to get his side of the story? Have you? Yes I have, on several occasions. I am aware of all the documents involved and how they came to be in John's possession. Then why do you keep asking if we know which documents. You made it appear that you didn't know which documents we are all referring to and that we are all just making this up. The fact still remains that he violated the trust of the members by doing what he did. His actions cost me money as a member of the USPA. I would have much rather seen that money spent on something productive and useful to skydiving instead of his ego. He does not have my best interest as a skydiver at heart. Judy And you made it appear that you do know what documents are in question. Do you?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #50 December 8, 2004 >And you made it appear that you do know what documents are in question. Do you? This thread is going to get moved to Speaker's if you continue to use it as a way to pick fights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
