PackerBarry 0 #1 March 10, 2004 wasn't sure where to post this, but decided here would be best due to the reasoning involved... a jumper at my dz (really nice guy), very low time jumper has been in the phase of buying all of his new gear after getting his A license... he agonized about every purchase and bought what he felt was the top of the line in every category... he bought a bonehead havok helmet... one day I was joking with him about his concerns about a pack job and used my standard reply of "look, grab, look, grab, pull, pull, arch and you'll be okay" line to which he answered that he couldn't look because his helmet precluded him from looking down.... I didn't believe him, but when he demonstrated... no kidding, he couldn't look down due the the oversized face shield on this monstrosity... I then asked him why he had on goggles underneath the face plate, to which he replied that do much air passed through the seals that his eyes watered to the point of not being able to see in free fall.... here's the question..... I replied, if you can't see your handles and you have to wear goggles under a full face helmet... get rid of it and get something else I'm wondering what others out there would have said in the same situation... for that matter what advice would some of you have in that situation? he's a great guy and I want to make sure that he stays safe, but seems to have been infected with the new and shiny disease thanx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #2 March 10, 2004 A friend of mine had one of those helmets. I'm pretty sure it was the Havok...definitely one of the Bonehead helmets. He had the same problem. Got rid of it and bought something else. If I remember correctly, there were also a few interesting snag points that he was concerned about. I haven't used many different helmets, but I think that was the worst and possibly most potentially dangerous helmet design I've seen so far. Not being able to see your handles is very dangerous. OK, he may be able to find his handles in an emergency without being able to see them, but then again he may not. Also, consider the very real possibility that a handle becomes partially or completely dislodged during the skydive. He'll have no way of knowing. Tell him to get rid of that helmet and buy one that isn't going to creat an added level of danger. Stay safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #3 March 10, 2004 these must be strange helmets. Any pic available ??? Edited to add : May the force be with him scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bosveld 0 #4 March 10, 2004 A Really experienced skydiver at our DZ made a good point the other day, and I tend to agree with him. He said that Helmets and most other skydiving equipment have become more fashion items than anything else. People loose focus on practicality and care only if stuff looks "cool". If only people would give so much attention to functionality than they do to looking "cool". Don't get me wrong, I love having the right colour that mach my rig with my jumpsuit etc. but first and foremost I pay attention to how well stuff works! Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, will be true! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #5 March 10, 2004 This is why in the UK you cannot wear a full face helmet till you have B license (50 jumps and an accuracy qualification). Most modern full face helmets do allow good viability of the handles so the rule often seems obsolete, but I think there are still some which truly do explain its continued application. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #6 March 10, 2004 How big is your friend? I have the same helmet and not only can I see my handles, I can see my chest strap as I am loosening it up under canopy. I have a huge gourd of a head and because I wear glasses this is the only full face in production I can wear. Which sucks because I like the Oxygen A3. his head might not be long enough for that type of helmet regardless of sizing (the havoc is another helmet that adjusts it's size by the pads on the inside). If he can quickly lower his visor to the stops without pausing to adjust the lip over the chin then that might be the case. This particular helmet is more of an annoyance than anything else. If you can find a better fitting full-face then there is no reason to have it._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #7 March 10, 2004 Interesting, when I was trying out full face helmets, I got the Havok because it offered greater visability of my handles. It was a big selling point. Try the Oxygen A3 then the Havok. I found the Havak to be a little easier to see my handles and much much better than the Bonehead boomerang. It sounds like this guys chin guard is way to big for him or maybe he just needs smaller pads? p.s., the Havok is the most comfortable helmet you will ever wear. scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #8 March 10, 2004 Quotethat do much air passed through the seals that his eyes watered to the point of not being able to see in free fall.... OK stop right there! This tells me that his helmet is WAY to big for him. This guy must be really small! I've never had air seep up under my chin guard. once again, my helmet fits me correctly, thats why I can see my handles. Edited to remove personal attack. Please avoid them. All "full face" helmets have that little "blind spot" due to the chin guard. It's the price of having a full face. Practice your emergency procedures if you have any doubts! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #9 March 10, 2004 he never said it was a bad helmet, he said it wasn't adapted to that person.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #10 March 10, 2004 QuoteThis tells me that his helmet is WAY to big for him. This guy must be really small! You don't KNOW that...you are assuming that. You may be right, but you may also not be. QuoteYou are bad mouthing a really good helmet because you are ignorant. He just needs one that fits! He is not bad mouthing it...He is saying that this helmet on this person has issues. I personally don't like the Havok since it looks to me to be a snagged line waiting to happen."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #11 March 10, 2004 QuoteI replied, if you can't see your handles and you have to wear goggles under a full face helmet... get rid of it and get something else I'm wondering what others out there would have said in the same situation... for that matter what advice would some of you have in that situation? I would check to make sure that he is putting it on correctly, and that it is the right size for him. If he was putting it on right, and it was the right size...Then I would have him get something else...For whatever reason it is clear that this helmet does not fit him. As for not seeing the handles....I would have him train wearing the helmet. You can see the handles if you turn your head slightly. I look at my right handle (Turn my head to the left slightly) and grab it. Then look at my left handle (Turn my head to the right slightly) and grab it. I then ARCH like hell pull right, then left. A one handed cutaway procedure would need to bee REALLY drilled, and a straight reserve pull needs to be trained like hell...Its not normal to look away from an object you want to touch...But looking right at it will obscure it.. So the answer is to recognize the issue, devise a workable training plan, and drill it like hell."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #12 March 10, 2004 Ummm..most women that I know of can't see there handles due to there built in equipment..I just dont see his problem as being that big of a problem. you can work on the issue and fix it by feel. hence the beautfy of having a pillow release and a metal reserve. two totaly different feelings. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #13 March 10, 2004 Quotethese must be strange helmets. Any pic available ??? [ url "www.boneheadcomposites.com/havok.htm" ] HAVOK [/url] Sorry______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #14 March 10, 2004 Drop the "L" off the end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #15 March 10, 2004 thanks. nice look though... I'd love to try it... Never jumped with a full face... Don't know why, maybe cause I love the air on my face...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PackerBarry 0 #16 March 10, 2004 I wasn't badmouthing the helmet and I dont' really appreciate being categorized as ignorant... let's see, 1. can't see handles and can't properly do emergency procedures due to the limiting factors caused by the helmet. 2. wind blows through the helmet causing him to have to wear goggles under the full faced helmet in my ignorance it just seemed that perhaps this is not the helmet design for him... maybe I'm ignorant in thinking that a helmet should properly fit, not obscure vision and form a wind free zone around the orbital arcs... but then again I must be ignorant due to the fact that I didn't know that you had one and therefore it must be cool... sorry for the acerbic tone there, but my point is, I don't have any care as to what he wears (brand, appearance or model) only that he wears a helmet that is suited for him, doesn't have a ton of unneccessary snag points, shields his eyes and works for him. I am concerned with the functionality of the system and in my humble opinion, in this particular case, this particular model, on this particular person, this is not the deisgn that is working for him. as a matter of fact, he came in the other day and stated (with a bit more than a little surprise in his voice) that he'd done what I sugessted-- I suggested that since he couldn't see his handles and if he was going to continue to jump to do practice touches of his handles in both free fall and under canopy... he found that the handles were in a different position when under canopy... to you and I this is obvious but to him it was an epiphany, he said it took him something like 10 seconds to find them again .... that's a long time under a spinning mal.... once again I told him to get something else.... I don't care if it's a pro-tech with 2.00 goggles..... safety is the concern here, not looking cool for the chicks on the walk to the plane.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PackerBarry 0 #17 March 10, 2004 oh yeah, so far as fit, he agonized over the brand and model of helmet, so he was fitted serveral times... since he got it a master and 4 or 5 senior riggers have looked at it trying to figure out why the air is coming in and why he can't see his handles... we all tried it on and none of us can see our handles either.... may just be a body style/ head shape issue here.... there is no way the air is coming up from underneath.. the only thing that we can figure out is that the air is coming out of the blow hole, talk hole... whatever you call that vent in front of the mouth , or perhaps it is coming through one of the seams ....I know that when I got an A3 out of the gear store for him to try on, he was amazed to be able to see his handles... who knows.... this next weekend, I'm going to get him to jump a loaner A3 or Z1 to see if the wind problem goes away. btw, the reason I call it Darth Vader's helmet is because while walking to the plane or on the ride up... everyone on the drop zone entertains themselves with various renditions of "Luke, I am your father.." etc... he has even started to play along and go with the impression Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #18 March 10, 2004 Quote wasn't badmouthing the helmet and I dont' really appreciate being categorized as ignorant... let's see and I don't appreciate that you are suggesting that I said you were ignorant, as I was trying to defend you scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #19 March 10, 2004 Well, at least he gets the intimidating guy. . . My dropzone I get "Make way for Dark Helmet!!" _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PackerBarry 0 #20 March 10, 2004 sorry, that wasn't directed at you. it was directed at an earlier post that was edited to remove the offensive remark... sorry for the misunderstanding and thank you for coming to my defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabr190 0 #21 March 11, 2004 Just my .02, Maybe he should call Bonehead and ask a few questions. I have two full face helmets, a Z1 and a Havok. I actually had to mod the face shield on the Havok to let MORE air in due to fogging and I have no problems seeing my handles or chest strap with the visor fully closed. It really sounds like a fitment problem IMHO. By the way, I have a pretty large melon also, 7 5/8 Call Bonehead they have GREAT customer service, see what they say and let us all know the answer. Sorry, this took a while to post, so I may be repeating what someone else has alreay said. "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #22 March 11, 2004 Perhaps this is the problem. I forgot to mention that BoneHead composites is right across the street from Perris Valley. (my home DZ) When I was checking out the Havok, we went through 4 different pad configurations before I found one that fit perfectly. The head and chin are interchangable. I eventually went with all medium sized pads. Being at the factory, I was able to tweak with it till I found the right combination of pads, chinstrap ect. Your friend sounds like he just ordered a size, waited and hoped for the best. Do you know that you can bake the pads in the oven to fit better? Has your friend tried this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #23 March 11, 2004 Seems there is better advice coming in... He should definitely contact BH costumer service... Been a pleasure to defend you QuoteWell, at least he gets the intimidating guy. . . My dropzone I get "Make way for Dark Helmet!!" scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #24 March 11, 2004 QuoteUmmm..most women that I know of can't see there handles due to there built in equipment..I just dont see his problem as being that big of a problem. you can work on the issue and fix it by feel. hence the beautfy of having a pillow release and a metal reserve. two totaly different feelings Hey I resemble that. But I have no problem seeing my handles.. We modified my rig to have a lower chest strap under my breasts and the handles were moved up some specifically for visibility. I do turn them to the outside so they stick out next to the girls. I make sure the material is pulled tight and to the outside of the MLW so I CAN see them. I have a Havok... I cut a hole where the screen covered hole is in the front to allow for breathing thru it to prevent any fogging here in the cold and WET of Seattle. There are vents that allow some air in but I have never had an issue with too much to make my eyes water. I do not wear goggles with it. When I get under canopy I flip the faceplate to the up position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #25 March 11, 2004 seems to have been infected with the new and shiny disease >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the dude needs a better-fitting helmet, perhaps a smaller model, maybe even from a different manufacturer. Sounds like the dude has a small head and a loose HAVOK liner. His next step should be asking Bonehead to shop him a smaller liner with a larger chin/draft guard. In defence of full-face helmets, when one of our PFF students wanted to buy a Para-Sport Italia full-face helmet, we walked him through a few ground rehearsals of emergency procedures. Once we (instructors) were satisfied that he could find all his handles, we allowed him to do his last few PFF dives wearing that Para-Sport Italia full-face helmet. In defence of Bonehead HAVOK helmets, after agonizing for years over which full-face to buy, I recently got a HAVOK and love it! Like another poster, I have a huge head (the second largest jaw Bonehead has ever seen) and the HAVOK is one of the few full-faces that fit over my spectatcles. That being said, I would only recommend it to skydivers with similar-sized heads. Smaller helmets fit better on smaller heads. Buying helmets is like buying shoes: f$$k fashion, fit is the most important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
