Snivel, snivel, snivel (Spectre question)

[skyyhi 0]

Okay, so I flew my first 7 cell this weekend. A spectre 210 (for those who care. . .it was wingloaded at .71 to 1. . .hey, don't laugh, I am a newbie jumper). Opening was VERY soft and on heading but that snivel lasted forever. . .I was pulling somewhere between 3300 and 3500 feet. . .(dytter going off at 3500 - wave, pull. . .etc). Canopy fully inflated at 2200 feet. Just so you all know. . .I was never worried about the canopy not opening. . .and I didn't get nervous about the altitude (except on one jump when the snivel seemed extremely long). I was able to get to my holding area and land in the landing area each time without incident and never felt unsafe. . .it was only later when talking with others that I felt maybe that snivel was a little long.

Question - is there a way to pack a Spectre so it opens quicker and would I really want to do this?

Was I too low? Should I have been thinking about chopping when it took so long to inflate? (did think about it one time. . .)

Is there something I can do to "help" the canopy inflate faster when I am flying. . .

Disclaimer: As always, because I am a newbie, I will run any and all advice offered by my instructors when I am at the dz next. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[rjf98 0]

Well you didn't run it by me.

Let me take a look at you packing it next weekend, or ask Sharky to take a look. We both jumped spectres for a while (the same on actually).

Specres are known for sniveling. It's a good thing for those that want soft openings, or if your Jay Stokes trying to set a world record and doing H&Ps right at 2000 feet :)

If you don't roll the nose, and don't wrap the tail as much it tends to speed up the openings. Also, don't clover leaf the slider and pull it over the nose, just get it down the center.

Do these things one at a time. See what happens with each jump. You definetly don't want to do them all at once and have it slam you.

Another option is to look at the length of the bites on your line stows (although not directly related to the snivel).

Grasshopper is a rigger / packer and could be a good resource, but any of the instructors will hook you up with some good advice.

[quade 4]

Quote

USPA SIM Section 2-1 G

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:

1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL
2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL
3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL
4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL

These are the minimums so your choice of deploying higher is a good one. However, understand what might actually be happening. If you are looking at your altimeter and it indicates 3,500 AGL or your Dytter is set for 3,500 AGL and you're listening for the beeps AND you take more than a couple of seconds to wave off and pull, you may have gone through the 3,000 AGL hard deck before you actually started to deploy your parachute. Think about it, maybe one second to realize the beeps were going off, maybe two more seconds for a couple of wave offs (try it right now and get an idea of how long it takes) and maybe you ate up three total seconds right there -- that's about 500 feet.

An 800 foot opening on a Spectre would not be unheard of and actually would be right in the ballpark.

As for packing hints, you absolutely can not go wrong by packing it according to the manufacturer's recommendations.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyyhi 0]

Quote

Well you didn't run it by me.

I didn't run it by you because I didn't look at my protrack till I got up this morning (I was having a LITTLE too much fun last night. . .lots of good laughs). . .I was sharing the protrak readings with some others and they seemed to think it was sniveling too long. . .

I will make sure to see you guys next week for some tips. . .I did like that spectre though. . .very easy to land - for me anyway. . .

Thanks Rich. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[skyyhi 0]

Quote

An 800 foot opening on a Spectre would not be unheard of and actually would be right in the ballpark.

Thanks Quade. . .that actually makes sense. . .didn't really think of it that way. I am waving off when I hear the signal, then deploying. . .again, I was comfortable and the canopy was opening. . .nothing appeared to be wrong with it. . .and I had a nice pilotable (is that a word?) canopy when it opened. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[Tink1717 2]

You can try packing without rolling the nose of the canopy. BUT be warned, you can also get slammed that way.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[flypunk 0]

I usually pack mine without rolling the nose at all I don't even push it in, and roll the tail. it is really hard to get a slammer on a specter, but it can happen everynow and then.

If you need it faster play with the slider, and hold on.

...

[Nightingale 0]

I was reaching for handles on my first jump with a spectre... it just took so damn long... I counted to ten slowly (one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, etc) and it was still sniveling. I reached for red, and just as I was about to pull it, the canopy opened all at once. I looked up and started laughing "oh! there you are! bout damn time!"

[Blahr 0]

I have had openings that ate up 1000 to 1200 ft and I considered that to be excessive. None of them took anywhere near 10 seconds.
Thats an awfully long time.

[Nightingale 0]

I know it was long- thats why I almost cutaway. It probably wasn't a full ten seconds, but close to it.

talked to the packer after... he said he'd rolled the nose pretty tight to give me a real soft opening. The opening was really soft and nice, it just took FOREVER.

[The111 1]

Quote

You can try packing without rolling the nose of the canopy. BUT be warned, you can also get slammed that way.

I never roll the nose on my Spectre. I actually do the opposite, I open the 3 center cells up slightly, if that even makes a difference once the tail is wrapped. I "bias" the slider away from the nose, and I barely wrap the tail... still get 800-1000 ft openings.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[ostrich 0]

The first 20 or so jumps on my Spectre were just like that. Took about 1000 feet to open.

Now its about 500-700 feet, but still nice and soft.

I never roll the nose or push it in, just quarter the slider, and barely roll the tail.

[payback462 0]

ok, this is a little off topic, but i think its still relevant.
my question is why were you pulling at 3000ft when you were jumping a new-to-you canopy. lets say that you threw out at 3k , 800ft opening as quade suggested which still puts you BELOW your hard deck as an a-license holder but thats not what im getting at
so your at 2200ft with a canopy youve never jumped before, controlablitity check, (a nice long fliar a left turn and right turn) lets say maybe 300ft lost (just an estimate!) dont chop off my head, so now your at lets say 1900ft, maybe the spots a little off, and you need to fly a little up or downwind, that burns up another 200ft maybe. now your at 1700. lets say you fly into place to start your patten at 1000ft. well now you only have 700ft to really get to know this parachute before you need to setup for landing.

sorry for the overly long setup, but my point is, when your jumping a new canopy or still learning(which all of us are) its a good idea to pull higher then the minimum.
yes you may get 10 seconds more of freefall but id gladly take the extra MINUTES of canopy time.

but hey, maybe thats just me, i like to fly! not fall

[skyyhi 0]

Quote

my question is why were you pulling at 3000ft when you were jumping a new-to-you canopy.

That is a good question, and if you read my post my intention was pulling at 3.5K-but this was the first time for me using an audible as well as a visual alti. . .just a note, my first jump on this canopy I waved at 4k and pulled - protrak reading says 2.9k under canopy (sorry I didn't mention that) so I kinda knew it would be a longer opening on the other jumps which is why I wasn't freaked out about it. Also, after controlability check I was still able to get in a couple of 360s on the canopy on some jumps and play with front and rear risers on a couple others. Just a note. . .I like the canopy. . .I like landing it too - it was fun for this newbie jumper

As for those mentioning rolling the nose. . .I do not roll the nose - just flake the cells and kinda let them go after I finish with the lines - then wrap the tail around like normal. . .also, I packed for myself 3 times that day and paid a packer 2 more times. . .there was really no difference in the openings between the pack jobs of the two of us. . .

Thanks all for the replies so far. . .great stuff. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[payback462 0]

its all good just throwing it out there,

[billvon 2,918]

>Was I too low?

I'd say yes; you have to pull higher under a Spectre due to their long snivels. Packing can make a little bit of a difference, but once you start with some of the more extreme tricks (like not quartering the slider and letting it creep down the lines a little) your odds of getting a real slammer go up a lot. 99% of the details of packing (i.e. where the nose is, how it's rolled, how the tail is prepared) disappear within a tenth of a second of the parachute hitting the air, so no packing trick in the world will change a 4 second snivel into a 3 second one.

>Should I have been thinking about chopping when it
>took so long to inflate? (did think about it one time. . .)

I think the important thing is having a hard deck. Always chop at 2500 feet (or whatever your altitude is) no matter what the canopy is doing (if it's not open, that is.) Too many people have had cypres firings because at 1800 feet they thought to themselves "hey, it's about to open, I can feel it."

>Is there something I can do to "help" the canopy inflate faster when I am flying. . .

Deep brakes can help, but this is more of an emergency manuever than a recommended normal procedure. Releasing brakes during an opening can lead to some very nasty problems/mals; I'd only do it under very specific conditions (like you're sniveling through 500 feet.)

Other things - pulling at a higher speed can lead to a faster opening, so arching hard before you pull can help. Mods to the canopy itself (chopped or smaller slider, shortened brake lines) can also help.

[skyyhi 0]

Thanks Bill. . .this was a rented canopy so no mods there. . .and I like the openings (read: nice and soft). So from what I am gathering here is that I need to make sure I am throwing out by 3.5k (thanks Quade for pointing that out to me) so that if the canopy takes 1k to open, I am in the saddle by my hard deck without question. That is a much easier fix than trying to learn another new way to pack at this point. . .I am slow enough as it is. . .lol!

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[billvon 2,918]

>So from what I am gathering here is that I need to make sure I am
> throwing out by 3.5k (thanks Quade for pointing that out to me) so
> that if the canopy takes 1k to open, I am in the saddle by my hard
> deck without question.

Yes, and perhaps a secondary note is that you might want to consider using canopies that snivel less in the future. Most people pull low at some points in their skydiving career either intentionally (to avoid someone above them) or unintentionally; having a canopy that takes 1000 feet to open could put you in a dangerous situation if you do ever have to pull at 2000 feet.

[Tink1717 2]

Interesting. Mine ALWAYS takes 800-1100 ft to open. But every once in a while (three times in two years) WHACK!!, instant canopy. GO figure.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[PhreeZone 20]

I highly encourage anyone that claims to have an 1000+ foot opening to video it. It needs to be in sinvel for 8+ real seconds to cover 800 feet. The longest I've caught on video yet is about 6 seconds.

Opening is counted from when the pin is pulled and the bag starts lifting off your back untill the slider stops moving. Most openings are 500-700 feet at the max. Things like alti lag, paralax and even mind state can make readings vary alot, but look at video and it don't lie.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Tink1717 2]

Well then, next time I shoot vid, I'll be counting.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[baa75 0]

I think what a few people are trying to get at here is that you should be opening higher when jumping a new canopy, period. Since you don’t have many jumps to begin with then why push it to the line with how low you can open? I think this is very good advice.

As far as the snivel goes…Did you look into the characteristics of a Spectre before you jumped it? Did you ask anyone for tips on packing a Spectre before jumping it? Or about how the openings & landings are? Even if you did, you still didn’t give yourself much time in the air to try out turns & practice flares. You asked if you should have cut it away…Do you think you should have? Have you decided where you’ll cut away if you don’t have a good canopy over your head? Were you open before or after that point? I’m not trying to sound mean, just giving you a few things to think about. I have people at my DZ (and on here) who grill me with these kind of questions and it really makes me think. Hope it does the same for you.

I started jumping a Spectre at about 20 jumps and I just downsized to another Spectre. I have about 10 jumps on it but I still open a bit higher (4000K) to give myself a little more time to really get a feel for the canopy. Better to be higher with more time than to be low and figure things out a bit too late. I knew before my first jump on a Spectre to expect it to take about 800 ft to open so although it still seemed like forever, I wasn’t too worried. I also spoke with other people who jumped them and asked what they liked and didn’t like, etc. Oh, my wingloading was actually a little less than yours at first too…I was on a 200+!

My advice…regardless of what you do to shorten the snivel…Open Higher!

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[The111 1]

Quote

I highly encourage anyone that claims to have an 1000+ foot opening to video it. It needs to be in sinvel for 8+ real seconds to cover 800 feet. The longest I've caught on video yet is about 6 seconds.

I spent several solo jumps doing the following, in attempt to eliminate any sources of error. Short of video (which I'll admit I haven't done), I think I was pretty accurate.

1) At 4.5k, shove my alti in front of my face, grab my hackey tight, arch hard, and stare at the alti intently.
2) At 4k throw quickly. Like I said, the hackey was already in my hand so I can't see much lag happening here. I actually literally pulled slightly before 4k, trying to time it so my hand was letting go of the hackey just as the needle hit 4k. I returned to stable boxman immediately and kept staring @ alti.
3) Fully seated, look alti right away (yes I'm aware first priority should be airspace, but on these jumps it was small loads where I exited last with long delay and opened higher than others, so I felt it was okay to take 1 second to glance at alti before grabbing risers). My results varied from 2800ft to 3200ft. Usually was around 3100. Which equates to an opening range of 800-1200ft, average 900.

All that said, you are still right, instruments and senses fail us, video would be the ultimate proof. I'm kind of curious when the deployment process is measured as "starting". Like I said, I tried to time my attempts so the hackey left my hand at 4k exactly. Well what if it's 200ft before the PC inflates? Do we count the "pre-PC-inflation" as part of the deployment? Obviously it's all semantics, for your own personal situation you just need to know when to execute your deployment procedures and when it will seat you, but for discussions like these we like to say "deploment takes xxx feet", and as such we need a clear defintion of deployment...

EDIT: Ok, so you did say opening is the time from pin dislodge to slider stop moving. So... out of curiosity (I have not watched many deployments), how long after the hackey leaves your hand does the pin dislodge?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[PhreeZone 20]

When your alti said you were at 4000 feet, you were really lower then that. The alti is a device that tells the barometeric pressure where you just were. In freefall there is always a lag since the alti is reading the air you just fell through. Under canopy you are falling slower so the lag is less pronounced.

Look at a dytter graph, they log everything and usually show about 500-700 feet is the time from initial slowdown to the end of the graph (open canopy)

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[TribalTalon 0]

okay well. i have a spectre 170 and i do NOT roll the nose at all, i usually push in the nose a little, but not alot, and thats about it. it usually opens within like 4-5 seconds, the longest snivel i've had was like 6-7 seconds. *shrugs* just tell your packer not to roll the nose.