Considering the sport, but have concerns after reading 2004 ncident post

[Feeblemind 1]

Hey All,

I just made my first tandem jump last week and enjoyed the heck out of it after I got over the terror of jumping from a perfectly good aircraft. I have a good friend that jumps frequently and invited me to the DZ where he new he would get me to jump.

Well with that said, I am in an odd spot. Being married with two children and a type "A" personality I research stuff carefully. Where as I enjoyed the skydive and am considering getting a license. My friend directed me to this site and told me to check it out. Well of course I went straight to the incidents forum and read about this years fatalities and it has taken away some of my desire to continue.

It concerns me on reading the posts of the injuries/fatalities of the new sky divers.

I consider my self to have pretty good common sense (which makes me wonder why I want to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft, hehe) but it seems the only thing that can prepare you for most of the incidents I read was experience. More often than not I want to do things in the safest possible manner, is this the sport for me?

My pal says your dead when you leave the aircraft and you have to save your own life along the way. Again it seems like experience is the best tool here but getting it is the risky part.

The DZ I did my tandem and would train at is VERY safety minded, am I just being a sissy?

I guess the number I would really like to see is the number of fatalities in relation to the number of sky dives.

Thanks,

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[freakflyer9999 1]

The vast majority of skydivers live through their student training. Just suck it up and go jump.

[kelpdiver 2]

1 death in 70,000 jumps seems to be a decent ballpark estimate. Tandems are better, perhaps 3-4 times more jumps. And if you read through the incidents, a good chunk, including most of the landings, come from aggressive choices in gear and in use.

But...if you enter the sport you must be prepared for the possibility of dying or being badly injured, and it may happen even if you do everything right.

The AFF student jumps on student gear with one or two instructors is probably safer than the normal risk, so you could elect to do a few jumps to help you decide how the positive side of the risk/reward balance measures.

[koz2000 1]

You are completely correct to research the sport. We sometimes fail to remember that we can get killed on every skydive. What your friend said is true, you have to save your life on every jump. However, you can take steps to be very safe. If you look at many of the fatalities, the number one killer is low turns under canopy. Sometimes these low turns are for "speed building" and some are due to obstacles. The mistakes aren't made at the time of impact, they're made at a higher altitude where you can take the easy out (landing area) or realize you're too low to start a high performance turn. Quality gear is also a consideration. Using an AAD is a great way to reduce fatalities, I know they're expensive but they're worth every penny when you're incapacitated, or you loose altitude awareness.
Also remember it's ok to say no to a particular dive, or jump condition. I bit my wife's head on when she agreed to do a 6-way jump (her having 21 jumps) w/ an instructor (who is not the sharpest tool in the box) and four other very inexperienced jumpers. They set themselves up for failure. She didn't want to dissapoint everyone and scratch off the dive. Or there will be times when the winds are too high but people are egging you on to manifest, it's ok to say no and stay on the ground.

Just like airplane crashes, the majority of parachute incidents are pilot error. Yes sometimes crap does happen, but technology has made this sport a lot safer. If we can just educate jumpers and make them act on that education we'll reduce many of the fatalities.

There are approx 25,000 - 30,000 active skydivers in the US and probably the average number of jumps per skydiver is 150 per year which comes to 4.5 million jumps. If you bring it way down to 25 jumps per year avg, you're still looking at 750,000 skydives. your odds are pretty good.

I too have a wife and children and there are a LOT of other skydivers out there that have families as well. Go to the DZ, sit throught the first jump course, if you still have reservations, talk to your instructor about them. Remember, you're the only person that's making you leave the airplane, no instructor will push you out, ( but they might assist you)

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[tombuch 0]

Some quick 10 year statistics (USA domestic) from my book:

1 out of every 70,130 jumps results in a fatality, and there is one fatality for every 903 USPA members. Those simple stats don't tell the complete story. Tandem tends to be much safer, and there are many things an individual jumper can do to improve the odds. Continue doing your research, and make conservative decisions. I can't assure you that skydiving is an appropriate activity given your lifestyle...only you can do that.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[jimmytavino 16]

....my pal says you're dead when you leave the aircraft,, you have to save your own life along the way.....***

how dramatic...!!!... well your friend is Wrong!!
If he believes this then he is either just quoting what he's heard,( quite unoriginal) ,,,or he is just SCARED!!!!

I am never more ALIVE,, as when i exit an aircraft...
In fact when I go through that door,,, I am not jumping OUT of a perfectly good ANYTHING,,,
I am jumping INTO... something...
I am jumping Into the world of freefall.. and i do it with my eyes and my brains.... wide open...
I never make a jump without being prepared... My gear is prepared, and my attitude is prepared,, and my game plan is one of preparation as well...( that's why we dirt dive)
Sure ,, there are situation....many things CAN happen., this is a somewhat unpredictable sport... It is how we react and respond to those situations which will determine whether the sport is dangerous or safe, for EACH of us....Things happen,, they happen TO you,, they happen because of you,, and they happen in Spite of you.... Be ready for it....but not to the point of distraction from your REAL goals,,, learning to skydive...
True enough,,,novice and intermediate skydivers may very well Lack TOTAL understanding and knowledge of techniques....that takes time...
They may Lack even the awareness of what might occur,,, or the instincts to TELL when something has already occured......
That's why they are novices....that's why they SHOULD be wary.. that's why they need to be so vigilant and careful,, as they begin following the path which leads to experience.......
Pay great attention to your instruction,, because contrary to what most non jumpers and some tandem students believe,,,,,,,the sport can be absolutely Safe!!!.... ( sorry to dash the hopes of all the would-be heros and Thrillseekers )...With the proper understanding of gear and techniques and a careful cautious approach to the early formative jumps, anyone ( TYPE A B C or D ) .. can share in the freedom which skydiving offers to us. Go slow and easy.. one step at a time, paying close attention to safety procedures,, and it's statistically safer than many many ground bound hobbies..
It seems to me that most years. we see a fatality number below 30 or so...nationwide. and that recently at least,,, 20 to 30 % of those are more the result of individual misjudgements ( i. e. pushing the 'envelope' . or a poorly timed lapse in judgement) than inherant problems with the sport itself...... Remember,, the gear which you will use and the techniques which you will be taught, are the beneficial by products, of decades of research and development, trial and error....Most of the "bugs" have been worked out, by now...
So it DOES come down to the INDIVIDUAL himself or herself....Regardless of a persons "stature" in life or within his/her own world,,, everyone plays on an even ( low ) level when they first take up the sport.... Practice humility, let your Ears work, more than your Mouth. (though you should ask some questions,,, and be sure to listen to the answers ) Learn to whom you should listen and to whom you should not... ( Hint.... Instructors... Yes... Local dropzone "show-offs" No....)
Try NOT to get carried away with mimicing some of the higher level aspects of our sport,, Until Your own skill levels and basic safety approaches to the sport can be developed......Remember,, when you see canopy pilots , wowing the crowd with a leaf kicking, fence skirting , pond skimming swoop, or enthusiastically re-living a recent jump where they accomplished sooooo much between exit and opening,,, that they likely were crawling,, before they were taking some first baby steps, before learning to stride with confidence,, and before
turning that stride into a sprint,,, as their talents became developed......
For sure it is a long and slow path,,, sometimes YEARS,, sometimes decades!!! But it is a satisfying journey,, and one which you should take,, if you approach it properly...
There is a LOT to do between "making my first tandem",,, and "getting a license"..however...
It will take a dedication of time,, energy, money, and heart... there may be stumbling blocks along the way,,, setbacks,, even injuries.....
If those things deter you..... that's ok... don't take it personally....
" Not every Person who makes a tandem jump, is cut out to truly become, a Practiced and Polished and Licensed Skydiver..." the world needs whuffos too.......
p.s Most ALL dropzones are pretty safety minded... just be sure that that becomes your own personal mantra, as well..... Let's be careful out there.....

skydive softly, skydive often, skydive with friends.
jmy o[:-) a3914 d12122 scr scs nscr

[kelpdiver 2]

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how dramatic...!!!... well your friend is Wrong!!
If he believes this then he is either just quoting what he's heard,( quite unoriginal) ,,,or he is just SCARED!!!!

I am never more ALIVE,, as when i exit an aircraft...

It's often said, but not wrong. When you leave the plane, you are a minute or so from pancaking the earth, with some modification of that fact for the AAD. You feel ALIVE in large part because you've taken personal control over your existence.

There aren't too many sports where you intentionally put yourself in a position of certain death, and then recover. That might be a better definition for "extreme" than "looks good on TV to 14 year olds."

[JohnMitchell 14]

I'm concerned about getting killed, too, and that's probably why I'm still here.

You can control the risks in this sport a lot more than in others. It's almost as safe as you want to make it. Come on in and have fun.

[Avion 0]

I'm new to the sport too. I decided to learn how to fly in a tunnel before starting to jump to relieve that stress from the other tasks I had to deal with in AFF. After I aquired some basic free fall skills, I realized I was clueless about how to fly and land a canopy.

I too like to research things I'm going to get involved with. So, I read the USPA fatalaties database covering a few years and the incidents forum here extensively. At first I was horrified stiff. Then overcoming my initial shock, began to notice some patterns. Most accidents commonly occur at two times: At canopy deployment, and at landing.

After following the incidents forum for months, I have recently realized that if you take out the accidents due to suicidal skydivers, inebriated skydivers, and reckless skydivers a lot less are left over. These causes I just cited are preventable accidents. If you employ some common sense(prehaps better called uncommon sense, implying that you avoid attempting maneuvers beyond your ability), are sober and want to continue living, the risk you expose yourself to is actually very small statistically.

There is more to be said here, but after making that realization my apprehension has started going away. Just hanging out and listening to experienced jumpers with hundreds and thousands of jumps also helps. Their confidence seems to rub off.

My last words about this are: It is indeed a high risk sport, but if you are well prepared to handle yourself and watch out for others that might ruine you day, you stand to have a lot of fun. I've already had more good clean fun than I've had in a long time just floating around in the tunnel.

Cheers

By the way I think the numbers run something like 30 deaths per 3,000,000 jumps. Although, that excludes both major and minior injuries, those numbers are significantly higher. To put this this into perspective research some skiing or scuba statistics

[skytash 0]

I always respond to wuffos who say 'Isn't it risky?' that it is actually a low risk, high hazard sport. The chances of something going wrong are quite low, but if it does, it is usually quite serious.

You can reduce or increase the risk element by making choices on gear, landing pattern and people you jump with. There will always be some risk, and it doesn't hurt to remember that it does translate into high hazard.

In my view, those who are most scared are actually those who have the lowest risk of hurting themselves as they are careful to take all steps to reduce their fear - always stay a bit scared as it will sharpen your concentration and make you more careful.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[Feeblemind 1]

....my pal says you're dead when you leave the aircraft,, you have to save your own life along the way.....
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how dramatic...!!!... well your friend is Wrong!!
If he believes this then he is either just quoting what he's heard,( quite unoriginal [, unmerciful, unresolved, unrestrained, unreasonably, unregulated, unreasonable] ) ,,,or he is just SCARED!!!!

First of all maybe I spoke out of context. What my mate meant is that when you exit the aircraft if you do nothing (absent an ADD) you're gonna splat, if you encouter some type of in-fall incident and do nothing you splat etc... I think he basically meant you have to be aware of your surroundings and be prepared to deal with the unexpected, if not the consequences are quite severe.

As far as him being scared?! He is one of the most intelligent, common sense and safety conscious individuals on the planet!! With that said I would never tell or presume that he is scared of anything (I am not in need of an ass whipping). With that said, he has explained to me today that as you progress and become more aggressive in your skills most folks take more severe risks (i.e. Swooping, hook turns etc...) and these optional items can result in pain or a memorial.

He was also very specific on listening to instructors and as the other fellar said "open your ears and shut your yap" doing this will result in knowledge.

My biggest concern is equipment failure. He took time with me today and removed his chute from the pack explaining all the components in great detail, and when I say great detail i mean almost to the manufacturing specs!

He also explained a few of the malfunctions that can occur during deployment (my greatest concern). He explained horse shoes, hook -n- toe and line twists. He also mention the one where you pull and the device that is supposed to deploy the container fails to do so and is directly behind you in the slip stream (I forgot the name). He said that is very rare, but I must admit it's the one that concerns me the most. Due to the fact I am rather stocky with little flex ability I doubt I could reach back and give it a yank. It basically would give me the option of popping the reserve which my understanding is inherently dangerous with this type of malfunction.

All I am doing is seeking knowledge to make an educated decision on whether or not to pursue the investment, time, energy and dedication of this sport. Please do not insult my friend (well actually several folks) for my poor choice of explanation on the exit statement. my main concern is the safety of the equipment. I guess I am looking for some type of reassurance that if I am safe (i.e. follow all packing, donning , jumping and deploying procedures that I will have to make the mistake that will result in rapid stop trauma.

Sorry if I sound scared, but with one jump I think I should be.


Feed back appreciated.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[PhreeZone 15]

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I have recently realized that if you take out the accidents due to suicides, drunken idiots, and reckless fools few are left over.

Ahh, so all the low unintentional turns are reckless fools?

The single largest killer of skydivers is low turns to the ground. Intentional or unintentional... the ground does'nt matter either way. You are still just as dead.

In addition to the fatalities look at the injuries. There are far far more people serverly injuried every year then there are fatalities.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[GravityGirl 0]

Pay attention in class and believe in yourself....

....and have fun.

Quit reading the incident reports. Learn from ground school and begin your experience and then come back to the incident reports for reference on what not to do.

In drivers ed they teach you about the car and how it works. They let you get behind the wheel an practice the basics before they show you the gore movies. Imagine a 15 year old driving for the first time if she/he had just sat down and watched red asphalt!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[diablopilot 2]

BAsed on the number of skydives made in the US every year, and the number of fatalities, you probably take bigger chances in the shower each morning. That said.....

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My pal says your dead when you leave the aircraft and you have to save your own life along the way.

He's just about right. You CAN die doing this, from anything ranging from your mistakes to a series of events totaly out of your control. Personaly I don't consider myself a dare devil with a death wish, which is why each and every time I exit I do everything I think possible to minimize points for a chain of negative events to start (within reason).

Get out there and jump, but a) take your time, and b) be a knowlage sponge. Listen, and ask questions, even the "dumb" ones.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Avion 0]

Um, I meant all the skydivers who recklessly attempt things beyond their ability, rather than all people who unintentionally turn low. Stuff like trying to swoop a Velocity 90, wearing 20lbs of lead, with only 300 jumps worth of experience.

The guy, that just bounce off the parking lot of Skydive Atlanta, is another perfect example. He was on the "Watch out for this guy, he's gonna hurt himself, it's just a matter of time" list. Having done reckless things myself, in my younger years, and gotten away with them more or less well, I recognize reckless acts for what they are.

You know what I mean, your one of the 'Elders' here. I realize that this may sound harsh, and that those people have families and friends. But to us newbies, the consequences of these jumpers 'poor judement' is horrifying, until you learn that doing such things, is willfully inviting catastrophy. It has taken me a year, of reading the incidents form, just to get a handle on what reckless behavior is in regards to skydiving.

[bigway 4]

not to put you down or anything but if you are scared do not do it. it is not for everyone.
That said though, i have never been scared, i will never jump scared and the day i am scared i will leave the sport.....though i am nervous before every jump. That is why i am alive, when you are nervous you make sure you do everything right, when you are scared, you panic.
The only time i am not nervous on a dz is when i am in freefall, it is the most relaxed feeling in the world for me.
Skydiving is a safe sport, but only as safe as jumping out of a plane can be.
You might do thousands of jumps and die of old age, you might die on your first jump. You may just put yourself in a wheel chair for the rest of your life.
The thing is, if you can not accept the risk of bouncing or ending up not being able to walk or anything else you can imagine to happen you should not do it.
Are you ready to accept the fact that by no fault of your own that your reserve might malfunction at 2000ft and you hit the ground 70mph?
I dont mean to sound harsh but everyone is giving you statistics, i want you know that many Skydivers have lost many friends over this time in this sport.
you come accross as the sort of person who puts alot of thought into the risk. Then if you were to injure yourself in a bad way, you would just say that you wish you never did it and be very sour about it.
Skydiving needs to be in your soul..It is a risky sport, a life or death risky sport, are you prepared to risk your life everytime you jump?
Good luck on your desicion, if you join the sport once accepting the risks, you will become a new person, You will meet people that are extremley fantastic and you will be part of a huge family. Everyone looks after each other but you have no friends below 2000ft when in freefall.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Zenister 0]

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my pal says you're dead when you leave the aircraft,, you have to save your own life along the way.....***

how dramatic...!!!... well your friend is Wrong!!
If he believes this then he is either just quoting what he's heard,( quite unoriginal)

bravado and BS, often stated (or unorigininal if you prefer) but no matter how many jumps you have...his statement is completely accurate.. you are in the process of dying the instant you get out of the aircraft until the moment you do something positive to change that outcome. No other sport in existence can claim that.. (not even russian roulette, if you want to call that a sport) no matter how alive skydiving makes you feel, if you do nothing (and have no electronic device to act in your stead) after you exit the aircraft, you are DEAD. period.

everyone that is involved in this sport should understand that they are taking ultimate responsibility for their fate everytime they leave an aircraft. This is reflected in the care you take in your training, gear, situational awareness, packjob, canopy and approach choices.. etc... but in the end you make the decision, you take the action..... get out of the plane. or stay inside... pull or do not.....

do. or do not...

there are few things in life that are that black and white, where the line of division is so finely drawn... and few things (IME) that illustrate exacty what it means to be really alive, aware and complete in each moment, as it occurs...and that (for me) is worth all the risk....every single time..

training, awareness and preparation (proper gear etc) are what allow you to have this experience 'safely', again and again... but never, ever fool yourself and pretend that death isnt near and waiting for those who do not respect the inherent danger in the sport, or those unlucky enough to have the chain of circumstance stacked against them in that instance..... another 'unoriginal thought' but equally true in skydiving..

"you can do everything right, and still die".

but it is soooooooo absolutely worth it....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Feeblemind 1]

Gravity,

First off thanks for not posting a positive response (it really made sense)!!

JP, you most likely took me on my 1st jump.....It was last week and you were visiting your old DZ am I right???? I forgot cash and gave you my last DV tape (I will makethat right BTW)

SO I am getting from what you all are saying that if you?

1) Go to class listen and learn...

2) Follow safety guidelines...to the letter

3) Be smart enough to ask (you're a noob, what should you really know) pack, ADD etc.. are proper prior to boarding the plane.

4) (Most mportant.. Mouth closed, ears open and no such thing as a dumb question.

5) jump with safe equipment (i.e. a reputable companies rental gear that is inspected by someone you trust).

I should e realitively safe?



Feed Back appreciated.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[bigway 4]

you sound like you really need to go and sit in a class for AFF level one, the instructors will teach you everything you need to know for the stage you are at.
I got caught on a door of a plane, thank god the door handle broke and my lines got twisted around me....you know what mate, not for one second though was i scared, i had no time to be scared, i had a job to do, and that was save my life. At that moment everything from my first AFF class come flooding back to me, all the emergency procedures i was taught come straight to my head and i got to work.
Once you learn what you need to know, skydiving is easy...just pay attention, you sound like you would pay great attention and would make a safe skydiver. Keep up the questions, maybe go to your dz and ask if you can go up in the plane as an observer and not jump, just watch everyone, watch they way they do their checks and sit at the dropzone for the day and see how people operate.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[AggieDave 6]

First of all, Skydiving is not a "safe" sport.

Its a calculated risk sport, you have to be comfortable with the potental consequences. Its also a calculated risk sport due to the fact that you can control many of the risks (not all of them), by choosing the skydives you go and don't go on, choosing who you jump with, what kind of gear, what DZ and plane you jump out of, seeking the best training you can find and learning well from the beginning (especially canopy control).


So no matter what anyone else tells you, YOU have to be ok with the decision to skydive or not to skydive. I'll tell you that for me, the rewards far outweigh the risks involved, but that's for me and my decision.

Reading the incident reports was good for you, you saw past the tandem jump, you saw past the bullshit and now understand that this sport is infact dangerous. Its not a carnival ride, its not a walk in the park, much to the difference of opinion with many jumpers new to this sport.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Travman 6]

I am the same as you. When I take an interest in something I research down to the last detail. By the time I did my first jump course I had read through all the training manuals and had an idea of what to expect. Also during my research I had read through many many incident reports. I found in most of them there are good lessons to be learned, and I felt better after reading them, learn from others mistakes.
There is a risk in this sport, but hey you can't wrap yourself in cotton wool, you WILL die some day. You could decide not to jump, then get hit by a bus instead.

[speedy 0]

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you are in the process of dying the instant you get out of the aircraft until the moment you do something positive to change that outcome. No other sport in existence can claim that..

Maybe true but it's all put in a dramatic way. I've been in lots of situations where unless I take some positive action I will be dead. Downhill skiing or simpley driving my car. If I am doing a 100 mph and do not respond the conditions around me I may die. People die in cars because they fall asleep at the wheel.

You can do everything right in skydiving and still die. True, but as we have seen, lying on a beach sunning yourself can be fatal.

When I jump out of an aircraft, to be sure I am going to die, I have to actively do nothing. I would find that very hard to do.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Remster 24]

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Quit reading the incident reports.

I dont agree Bonnie... There are lots to learn from the reports, for experienced jumpers and new ones.



Also, to the posted you said that

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Um, I meant all the skydivers who recklessly attempt things beyond their ability, rather than all people who unintentionally turn low. Stuff like trying to swoop a Velocity 90, wearing 20lbs of lead, with only 300 jumps worth of experience.

Dont kid yourself. You dont need a swoopmonster to femur in or kill yourself. Doing a low turn on ANY canopy can be fatal, its just that a healyly loaded ground hungry canopy forgives less these big errors. Read "wings level": http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=42 , "The long Haul" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=560, and the ever popular "dowsize checklist" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

Remster

[gordy 0]

I recommend that you read the article by Brian Germain on the front page at the moment....that to me describes exactly what skydiving is about...

[StevePhelps 0]

I wouldn't tell you it isn't dangerous, because it is, but if there were incident reports readily available about football, scuba diving, motorcycle riding, etc. It would probably give you the same sense of trepidation as the skydiving incident reports do.