Considering the sport, but have concerns after reading 2004 ncident post

[GentleTiger 0]

maybe I should have typed "people" instead of "guys".

this was a post about giving advice to someone who is considering the sport, not an argument of how statistics should be interpreted.

may I suggest you stick with the thread?

Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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may I suggest you stick with the thread?

Yes let's please do. Skydiving is NOT a safe activity and it sure can be as dangerous as you want to make it. So to tell someone that skydiving is statistically safer than driving is not helping them out at all. Who cares how safe (which we know it's not) or dangerous driving is, we're talking about our risk tolerances in the sport of skydiving.

To the originator or this thread. Hey I asked the same questions you asked when I first decided to get into the sport (and believe me I questioned my sanity when I decided to start BASE jumping). It is possible to make hundreds and thousands of jumps without injury. But in order to do this, you need to know your limits, know your gear and don't do stupid things in the air. Yes most skydiving accidents these days are the result of people doing stupid things under a perfectly good canopy. In some cases it's because they tried to go too fast too soon under a canopy they had no business jumping at that stage of their jumping career. In some cases, they just didn't know the performance characteristics of their canopy (and this is likely because they have yet to seek canopy control coaching where we are taught this very important skill). And in many cases they just did the wrong thing either because they didn't know any better or because they panicked. Most of us believe that the rewards out weigh the risks in this sport and this is why we continue to risk our lives. But make sure that you've accepted the possibility that you too could be seriously injured or killed by jumping. If you haven't accepted these risks, then go play golf or something. But if you do accept the risks, learn your limits, know your gear and don't panic or do stupid shit up there in the skies. Then skydiving too can be a sport for you.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Wrong JP Brother...you jumped with Parris JP, that's Byron JP (I think). Listen to ALL these people...Note the disparity in what they are saying. Take them for what they are, a bunch of people you don't know and can't trust. A lot being said is good (even some of the jackasses making light of the cliché I used)
(I would like to take this opportunity to point out to all the greenies that the above jackass statement is in no way directed to a single individual. If you feel I just attacked you personally....that's probably because you, in fact, are a jackass)
But never take anything away from this or any other site about skydiving and use it without running it by your instructors first.

except the stuff about listening...
oh yea and the stuff about Follow safety guidelines...to the letter

...and of course "Be smart enough to ask (you're a noob, what should you really know) pack, ADD etc.. are proper prior to boarding the plane."

Oh well, like I said...run it by your instructor....or in your case your probi!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[skybill 18]

Dear Feeble,
The numbers are essentially bullshit. Skydiving is not a crapshoot where the odds of the chute opening are like beating the roll of the dice! The last thing you need at 2500 feet is pretty gear, you need good gear. The skydivers that have been around for a while jump good gear "and" know how to use it! So, get some good gear and good training. Your survival depends upon your actions, not someone else's inactions. As R.L. Tycer would probably write on the back page of your log book,"Knowledge is Power you dumb ass!!!"

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[ahegeman 0]

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maybe I should have typed "people" instead of "guys".

this was a post about giving advice to someone who is considering the sport, not an argument of how statistics should be interpreted.

may I suggest you stick with the thread?

Tiger

If you don't want to argue about interpreting statistics, then don't make patently wrong observations claiming statistics back you up, such as "Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving down the street", especially to newbies trying to make an honest assessment of risk before they put their life on the line.

Here's a link to a post I made last year comparing the fatality rates of cars vs. skydiving based on 2003 NHTSA stats. In short, a skydive is as likely to kill you as 676 miles in a car. That's a long "drive down the street" to equal the danger of one skydive.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[GentleTiger 0]

Numbers are tangible and they don't lie, however, there are any number of ways to interpret statistics. You will find that I am, by far, NOT the only one who says that "Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving."

For example, say there's a piece of land a company wants to log. They hire surveyors. Environmentalist groups hire their own, then the government hires theirs. Now, they come up with the same numbers, but the way they interpret them supports their existing beliefs.

The answers you get depend on the questions you ask.

From my point of view, skydiving IS safer.

Your argumentativeness was uncalled for.

Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[ahegeman 0]

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Numbers are tangible and they don't lie, however, there are any number of ways to interpret statistics.

Some of those ways are right and some of those ways are wrong.

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You will find that I am, by far, NOT the only one who says that "Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving."

And you will find that group far in the minority.

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For example, say there's a piece of land a company wants to log. They hire surveyors. Environmentalist groups hire their own, then the government hires theirs. Now, they come up with the same numbers, but the way they interpret them supports their existing beliefs.

If its so easy to argue numbers, then by all means give me an alternate interpretation of the numbers I gave you. I look forward to being educated.

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From my point of view, skydiving IS safer.

If skydiving is safer than your driving, please let me know if you ever drive through Fort Worth so I can barricade myself in my house.

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Your argumentativeness was uncalled for.

You ain't seen nuthin' yet. I was being gentle.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[kelpdiver 2]

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Numbers are tangible and they don't lie, however, there are any number of ways to interpret statistics. You will find that I am, by far, NOT the only one who says that "Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving."

A lot of people sleep more comfortably believing it, sure. Or use it as a defensive claim to those who think we want to die.

If you're going to compare risks of two activities, you need to select a method.

1- deaths by participant rate. We covered that one already. Skydiving is 6x more dangerous on a yearly basis.

2- deaths by time exposure. Using a very unfair set of rough guesses, skydiving was still twice as deadly.

3- deaths per single exposure. Skydiving is 1 in 70,000 jumps. Driving isn't remotely in that neighborhood. In the state of California, there is an average of 10-11 deaths per day. I can assure you the 30some million residents take more than a million car trips per day.

So what method do you choose?

[bigway 4]

this sounds like this post should be in SC by now.


Skydiving is dangerous....FULL STOP, who cares how dangerous, who cares what the numbers say....you are jumping out of a plane at a height that will kill you if your parachute does not open.

Driving a car is an everyday thing, transport on the ground is an essential part of life these days, driving ina car , a bus, riding a bike, walking accross the street, all of these or one of these things is a risk that MUST be taken in life, yes you may die and yes you may have a higher chance of killing yourself doing this than skydiving but who gives a shit? IT HAS TO BE DONE!, skydiving does not have to be done, there is a chance you will kill yourself, it is NOT a risk that you have to take in life.
You could die any day doing everyday things that MUST be done in life, or you could risk adding an extra danger in your life that does not need to be done.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[tbrown 26]

Considering whether to take up skydiving is a good excercise in sober reflection and only you can answer the question for yourself. On top of that you also have to take into consideration the fact that you have a young family and that anything you do affects their lives, for better or worse (and that includes something as "harmless" as playing basketball with your buds at the local Y).

I like to tell people that ours is a "safe enough" sport. It's a lot safer than most people think it is, but not as safe as skydivers would like it to be. You have two unique opportunities to get killed every time, dying in a plane crash or else getting killed during the jump. It can happen and sadly sometimes it does. Usually, on the jump anyway, it happens because somebody screws up and pulls a real no-no (a low pull, or more recently a low hook turn, etc). With proper training, attention and care, we'd all like to think we won't pull that kind of a stunt, and for the most part we don't. Problem is, you only have to screw up badly enough once and death is permanent.

You've made a tandem, so you know how beautiful it is up there, both in freefall and under canopy. The sport offers an exceptional reward in return for taking exceptional risk. There is no place more beautiful than to be out in the middle of the sky, but to get there you have to jump. You can learn to jump safely. You can learn how to use and take proper care of your rig. You can use AAD's and RSL's. You can take canopy coaching and learn how to fly to a safe landing (and given what people are doing with today's hot canopies, you really should make it a priority to get all the coaching you can). You can see and be seen, you can decide what risks you will or will not accept, which loads you're not ready to go on, and avoid people with dangerous reputations. You can train and train and train, keep your mind open and willing to learn from others. All of that should help you make many thousands of jumps for years to come. But it never quite takes away the risk that each and every jump can kill you. You will have close calls, you will have low pulls, near collisions, and almost certainly a few cutaways. You will learn what being really scared feels like, but hopefully only now & then, just enough to "keep you honest".

When my kids were little, I gave it up and stayed away for many years. It was my personal decision. I know plenty of jumpers with small children who are able to keep on jumping and I have no problem with them either, that's their decision. But if concern for your kids is a problem, then it could be a valid reason for you to stay away for now. And though this sounds like skydiving heresy, you need to consider where skydiving fits with your marriage.

Bottom line I guess is that it's okay not to jump. And if we do jump, we need to be clear about why we do it and why we love it. Of course we love it, if we don't love it then why in hell do it at all ? So think it over, just as long and hhard as you need to. Good luck & God bless, whatever you decide.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[gdmusumeci 0]

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7) Don't fuckin' die.

My SO says this every time I leave the house for the DZ (and she's not coming along). It's somehow reassuring; I hope to follow this rule for quite some time....

[JDBoston 0]

Actually, the answer you get depends on how you define "safer."

If by safer you mean "more forgiving of fuckups," I would really like to hear you argue why driving is more dangerous than skydiving.

I know more people who have died skydiving than who have died in car accidents... and I know a LOT more people who drive than people who jump.

Joe

[GentleTiger 0]

well said.

bbs
Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[JDBoston 0]

Thanks... but it was actually a question for you based on your previous post.

Joe

[GentleTiger 0]

well, it's easy to spend a couple of hundred hours in the car and not get killed...in skydiving terms, it wuld be the equivilant of a few thousand jumps. pretty good odds I'd say.

Nowadays, there are people with 10,000+ jumps and they are still jumping. You'll also find peiple with years and years of jumping who haven't been killed..with that in mind, in 10,000 trips I think I can speak confidently about bang ups...fatal or not.

Last year, or the year before, there wre 2.5 million tandems, zero fatailities. pretty goo odds there too.

so, while the consequences are inherently high, statistics can show you that it's safer than driving, or they can show you that it's more dangerous...it depends on your own mind set.

Sure, we walk away with bumps and bruises at times, but very few fatalitises if you compare them to the number of fatalities in the US while drving.

I have to admit that from these posts, I am reconsidering the truth of my stance on this issue. It was something that was said to me, so I pass it on to newbies considering the sport to help calm them down.

I'm so tired I'm seein double, but I hope this answers your question.

I'm surprised this thread hasnt' been moved.

bbs
Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[PhreeZone 15]

Do you have a source for that 2.5 million tandems part? I've never heard numbers near that high.

I can find people that are killed on their first jump. Just since people make it to 10000 jumps does'nt mean they can not die or get hurt jumping.

The one thing that remains true in this sport is that the ground could careless who you are, how many jumps you have or how many people like you... it is cold, hard and unforgiving. Make a slight error and you might be luckly and only break things, or it might just kill you.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[GentleTiger 0]

yeah, one of my guys at the dz who knows his shit...

yknow, it seems some of you are just lookin for an argument...lighten up, give it a rest and stick with the thread.

I'm not the only one who said driving is safer, so get off my back.

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[ahegeman 0]

Speaking of your back, how's it healing up?

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do you have a source for that 2.5 million tandems part? I've never heard numbers near that high.

I believe it's close to 10x higher (300,000) and is pretty close to the US total jumps.

Tandems are, by record, much safer than solo jumping. Doing a single jump that way might approach a year of driving risk.

[Err, I have to take that out. The single jump works out much better than a year of driving. If 1 customer out of 300,000 die each year on average (not counting the TM here), heck of a lot better than the 1 in 6000 drivers who die. ]

[Feeblemind 1]

Well here is the deal,


I am going to TAFF school and going to persue my class A with Ed (bodypilot1). His credientials are impeckable (did I spell that right?) and he has a no bull shit approach.

To define what I mean by that I was advised to speak to him and I have done so. He explained to me the program, his methods and the risks. I feel comfortable putting my training in his hands. I will see you all in the skys and I hope some day to jump with you all.

I really appreciate all the feedbaack and suggestions. Most of all I would like to thanks Bonnie for spending a ton of time with me in PM and on the phone, the information she provided was invaluable.

Phil

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[bigway 4]

good luck and welcome to our 3-dimensional playground in the sky

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Zep 0]

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Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving down the street.

Not unless you live on a *VERY* dangerous street. Skydiving is high risk.

Or live in Spain

You reach adolesence you get hit by a car
You reach your teen learn to drive, have an accident you die
You work in the construction industry you'll die
You raise a familly you'll wish you were dead (at times)
You manage to reach retirement age then you die
inbetween times skydive you'll be alive every minute your on the DZ

Gone fishing

[tdog 0]

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Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving down the street.

Not unless you live on a *VERY* dangerous street. Skydiving is high risk.

Or live in Spain

So someone posted the miles of driving = the danger of one skydive ratio. Wasn’t it like every 600 miles in a car = one skydive, every 29 miles on a motorcycle = one skydive?

If someone was really bored, they could put together a chart of miles per city... I know the drivers in Paris and Montreal Canada scared the shit out of me... No offense to my French speaking friends, but I bet it is 400 miles in a car in Paris and 350 miles in a car in Montreal.

If you guys ever lose the thrill of BASE or Skydiving – and need a “pick-me-up” rush, try driving a 24 wheel over sized, over weight, tractor-trailer thru downtown Montreal! (I had a CDL to support the company when they needed a backup to the backup to the backup driver, but I am not a truck driver at all, so I had sweaty hands whenever driving a 80’ long object in rush hour in any city, but Montreal made me stop once I cleared the city, jump out of the truck, and bow down to the ground and yell, “Land!”

[kelpdiver 2]

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So someone posted the miles of driving = the danger of one skydive ratio. Wasn’t it like every 600 miles in a car = one skydive, every 29 miles on a motorcycle = one skydive?

Ooh, can I add 2800 jumps to my total, then?

I guess I can believe it, given the number of Sunday Morning retreads with 700lb Harleys and a six pack, doing 800 miles annually. (800 is actually the average across the entire brand, including the ones doing 20k/year)