Considering the sport, but have concerns after reading 2004 ncident post

[jimmytavino 16]

...regarding this "when you leave the aircraft" comment......

May I clarify an earlier post which i made????


... yes yes yes.. TECHNICALLY speaking that statement IS accurate.... when I said your mate was WRONG.. I think what i meant,, but did not clarify is......
To make that statement is "wrong".. it's gratuitous,, it seems intended to frighten newbies,, or Impress newbies.... Or raise the relative "ballsiness" of the one who says it.....in the eyes of the newbies...
It's alarmist......... though true,, no doubt...
( I DO understand the concept of Gravity )
( and i DO understand the concept of Apathy,, regarding "high energy sports" )

But having that idea in the back of your mind,,,, is counter productive to the task at hand....it distracts the new jumper......
As pointed out by others here,,,,In many Many things in life,,,, "you're dead if you don't do anything about it..."... get on a thousand cc motorcycle,, get up to speed, and do nothing....trouble..
Attempt to scale the face of a granite cliff,,, freeze.. or do the wrong thing.. trouble...
hell get into a high speed batting cage,, stand there and let a hardball hit you in the head,, ( doing nothing to move)... trouble....
I am NOT disputing the words of the statement,, I am disputing the Fact that the words are being said to a novice....
It's sort of an "inside joke".. for the experienced crowd..In the same vein,, I very much dislike hearing "tandem Jokes"... meant to "scare" new tandem students... It's a case of an experienced jumper exerting undue influence on a novice who is not yet 'Tuned into ' the "camaraderie", of the sport,,, which sometimes involves playful joking,,, sarcasm exaggerations etc..... That stuff bothers me.... since i have always believed that an experienced jumper should be more considerate of the upcoming ones.........that's all...

[adobelover 0]

Well don't read the newspaper or watch the news then...if you were to see how many vehicle fatalities there were last year, you wouldn't want to ever drive again!

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Old age ain't no place for sissies!

[GravityGirl 0]

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Quit reading the incident reports.

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I dont agree Bonnie... There are lots to learn from the reports, for experienced jumpers and new ones.

I knew I should have worded that differently. That someone would take it wrong. That's why I followed up with:

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Learn from ground school and begin your experience and then come back to the incident reports for reference on what not to do.

My point is. Learn the other aspect of skydiving first. That way he can understand the hows and whys that he is reading, and he can put it into context.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Remster 24]

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That someone would take it wrong.

Leave it to me to misunderstand things...

Remster

[skybytch 259]

Accept the fact that you can do everything right in this sport and still be injured or killed. Number of jumps, years in sport, the gear you jump, the planes you jump out of... none of it means anything when shit decides to happen to you.

If you're okay with that, go jump. If you're not, don't jump. Simple.

[Avion 0]

The 'Downsize Check List' and 'Canopy Survival Skills" articles were great.

Rather than to insult anybody or put them down for their choises, I whole heartedly support the right to make ones own mistakes, God knows I've made enough of them, the point I was trying to make is that there is two type of risk, perhaps better said levels of risk, in skydiving: Inherent risk, that is risk that is for the most part beyond your control to reduce, such as airplane crashes, wind gusts etc..., and voluntary risk, that is additional risk, to what is inherent in the sport, that you have a choise of expose yourself to, such as getting in to a plane when your are already three sheets to the wind on the ground(altitude magnifies your high), attempting things beyond your ability, and believing that landing at terminal velocity will cure your problems.

People who voluntarily take on extreme risk of disaster and fair the worse for it, make the inherent risk appear greater than it is.

As I said before, it has taken my sustained attention for the better part of a year to realize that, and to be able to tell the difference between inherent risk and voluntary risk. I am implying, that to newbies and wuffos, all the risks taken appear to be inherent to the sport, and thus make the sport appear more dangerous than it need be.

The sport is high risk, but there is also quite alot you can do to minimize the risk you expose yourself to: Be well trained, be well equiped, be sober, and be attentive.

Blue Skies

[CygnusX-1 42]

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.if you were to see how many vehicle fatalities there were last year, you wouldn't want to ever drive again!

Off topic, but I couldn't resist.
Last year in the county (not country, or state) that I live in there were approx. 125 vehicle fatalities. And this year I think we are up to 5 already. Now let's see, which do you think is more dangerous - driving on the roads or skydiving. (Rhetorical question, please don't answer)

[jumperconway 0]

To steal a quote;
Skydiving is statistically safe yet inherently dangerous!

[kelpdiver 2]

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you are in the process of dying the instant you get out of the aircraft until the moment you do something positive to change that outcome. No other sport in existence can claim that.. .

There are few others with the same sort of immediacy to it - most of the examples others provided are more slow moving.

but surfing down the face of a wave at Jaws or Mavericks is definitely in the same category. The waverunner support is about the same as the Cypres.

Doing a cliff start on a hang glider or a paraglider is pretty close, too. Once you're more than 20 or 30ft off the ground, odds of surviving a crash landing drops fast.

Decompression diving, esp in caves, is somewhere on the periphery. Once you've gone a certain bit beyond the no decompression limit, surfacing does mean likely death. That's pretty deep or far - busting the tables mildly might garner itchy skin, aching joints or persistent headaches.

[GentleTiger 0]

those incidents, you may find, were for the most part guys who like to swoop by doing last second turns, people who don't do gear checks, and mis-packed parachutes. All perfectly avoidable incidences, with the exception of a very few.

Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving down the street.

If you're nervous about going out on your own, do some more tandems and talk with lots of folks at the dropzone.

I also welcome you to read my other posts...I had a handful of concerns too.

Blue Skies and best of luck,
Tiger

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Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[davedlg 0]

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Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving down the street.

Not unless you live on a *VERY* dangerous street. Skydiving is high risk.

[GentleTiger 0]

I agree that jumping is high risk, but only because if something happens, the consequences are high. As far as living on a VERY dangerous street: A. That's a choice and B. It's really only dangerous if you make it dangerous, i.e. pulling out of the driveway and sitting in the line of high speed traffic, not having a "safe" car, etc.

Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Statistically, skydiving is safer than driving down the street.

This has been covered before...no statistics will support that conclusion.

On an annual basis, 1 in 1000 Americans die skydiving. 1 in 6000 die driving. 10,000 miles at 50mph (both very conservative numbers) translates to 200 hours of exposure. 150 jumps at 40 minutes per jump in the air (aggressive numbers) translates to 100 hours of exposure.

I did like the statistically safe but inherantly dangerous line.

[Feeblemind 1]

Well what i am getting from the feedback and privat PM is as follows.

1) in the beginning Listen, learn, ask questions follow directions and double gear checked before boarding the aircraft.

2) Upon exit ARCH!!! relax and do as instructed by your coaches.

3) Relax and deal with any unforeseen event promptly (have plan before you exit, trying to figure it out at velocity is a bad idea)

4 Fly the canopy as coached, don't let the canopy fly you. Follow all instructions from coaches regarding turns for final approach....Low turns can equal pain or worse. Fy the canopy within your ability.

5) Repeat steps 1-4 until qualified for solo student jumps.

6) be Anal when it comes to your gear checks, if you don't it might be your second to last mistake, your last will be the exit with a gear problem.

So is that a pretty simple assessment?

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[CygnusX-1 42]

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4) …Follow all instructions from coaches regarding turns for final approach....Low turns can equal pain or worse. Fy the canopy within your ability.

Please do NOT follow this statement verbatim. Generally, instructors will try to get you to land safely. I have also heard stories (first hand account) of directions that would send you into a gully, building, or (pick an) obstacle. You are the one under canopy, not your instructor. Trust your instincts. If you think you are being led somewhere you don’t want to go, don’t do it. This may seem logically obvious, but if it were true these accounts would not have happened.

[koz2000 1]

Another thing that will save you.
Touch EVERY handle before you exit, Main, cutaway, reserve. Go through a mental scenario of pulling, having a malfunction, looking at each handle and grabing it, and then pulling them correctly. This muscle memory makes it very nice when you do have a cutaway and it seems like a routine action.

I check every handle 2-4 times on the plane ride, it's repetitive but it works.

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[davedlg 0]

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Please do NOT follow this statement verbatim. Generally, instructors will try to get you to land safely. I have also heard stories (first hand account) of directions that would send you into a gully, building, or (pick an) obstacle. You are the one under canopy, not your instructor. Trust your instincts. If you think you are being led somewhere you don’t want to go, don’t do it. This may seem logically obvious, but if it were true these accounts would not have happened.

Very good advice. In AFF, I had an instructor get confused which canopy I was in the air and instruct me to turn when I was 50' above the ground. I knew better than to follow that command.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Very good advice. In AFF, I had an instructor get confused which canopy I was in the air and instruct me to turn when I was 50' above the ground. I knew better than to follow that command.

Ditto. I was in the process of fighting out of severe line twists when the talk-down guy said "Unstow your brakes and see if you can steer the canopy." From his perspective - looked like a lineover. From mine? I knew getting the brakes out was exactly the wrong thing to do.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[NWFlyer 2]

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Well what i am getting from the feedback and privat PM is as follows....

So is that a pretty simple assessment?

Only you can decide if this sport is worth the risk. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you're clearly an information sponge. This is a good thing, but also remember that the more information you gather, the more "noise" you may need to filter out. Trust your instructors, trust the USPA-developed training materials first.

I'm a total newbie, so this is coming from the current student's perspective. Things that have worked for me in getting through my student progression:

1) Reviewing constantly. Every time I move onto the next level in my training, I go back to the early stuff and reread it.

2) Touching my handles all the damn time. Somehow, feeling that they're there helps me relax.

3) Asking a lot of questions. Ask them again if you don't understand the answers. Feed the information back in your own words to make sure you understand it.

4) Be mentally and physically ready to skydive every time you come out to the DZ. If you're not, ground yourself. I've only had to do this to myself once, but I'm glad I did.

5) Stay focused on the task at hand. A few times I've thought about inviting some of my whuffo friends out to watch me skydive, but I realize that I don't need any more distractions before the jump and I'm usually busy debriefing after. Sure, there's lots of downtime (especially with Washington winter weather) but during the times that I need to be focused, I want to be able to focus and not worry about guests. At some point I will, but not now.

6) Visualize. One of my instructors calls it my "zen yoga thing." I will visualize a skydive 10 or 20 times before I do it, including at least a couple of times with my eyes closed, breathing deeply, on the ride up. My most successful skydives have been the ones where I have time to do this. The times I hae a "brain lock" in the air and forget what my next maneuver is supposed to be are the times that we planned the dive quickly or made last-minute changes on the ride based on the altitude we were getting. If I've imagined it a bunch of times in my head, it's a lot easier to execute in the air.

I'm sure there's a lot more but that's what I'm thinking of right now... good luck and remember, most of all RELAX and HAVE FUN!

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Scrumpot 1]

The other thing to keep in mind that is also grossly OVERLOOKED when someone makes this FALSE statement is (and this is for you gentle tiger ...to consider, please):

The RELATIVE EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENT needing to be factored in, when comparing to the RELATIVE LIKELIHOOD (to be statistically accurate) of mishap &/or incident/fatality.

The sheer #'s of people who drive, and then TOTAL AMOUNT OF TIME (ie: "exposure") to that element as compared to skydiving just DO NOT CORRELATE! The analogy, as stated, that "skydiving is safer than driving" is a complete and utter fallacy! The comparison, without getting into much deeper further qualification (which if done would show it as such) is totally otherwise "apples to oranges".

It is used by some to deflect, and then justify the danger (especially to WHUFFO's) sometimes, but please make no mistake about it (and if you do truly still somehow actually believe this ---pull your head out of the sand) SKYDIVING IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS ...STATISTICALLY OR OTHERWISE (if the "statistics" were considered correctly) THAN DRIVING!

If you can not accept that straight-on and deal with it (without the need to put up these false deflections) then get out of the sport! You are deluding yourself.

-Grant

**edited to add: (OOPS! ...This is pretty much what you said ...and much more succinctly than I, I might add ...Me and my HASTE to jump right on as well, this clearly FALSE statement! ---Just drives me NUTS whenever I see/hear it though) ...I'm going to keep YOUR post "bookmarked" Kelp, methinks, for future reference. -WELL STATED!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skybytch 259]

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So is that a pretty simple assessment?

7) Don't fuckin' die.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Another thing that will save you.
Touch EVERY handle before you exit, Main, cutaway, reserve. Go through a mental scenario of pulling, having a malfunction, looking at each handle and grabing it, and then pulling them correctly. This muscle memory makes it very nice when you do have a cutaway and it seems like a routine action.
I check every handle 2-4 times on the plane ride, it's repetitive but it works.

I always do the above, and indeed the motions felt almost natural when I had to use the handles.
For what it's worth, I always feel my PC hackey when the door opens, then when I get near the door, to make sure the PC is well stowed; I also take a good look at my chest strap routing before heading out...
(Don't give too much credit to what I wrote, I have shit for experience! It's only my personal approach.)

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[mattjw916 2]

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those incidents, you may find, were for the most part guys

That's a lame generalization... most SKYDIVERS are male so obviously most incidents will involve males.

The ground doesn't discriminate and even experienced jumpers with conservative w/l can "hook it in." http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1210549;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[JDBoston 0]

I think the incident stats are more disproportionate than the participant numbers.

One good thing to remember when people start talking about skydiving vs. driving a car is that driving a car you can be dumb or unlucky enough to total the f'in thing and walk away from it.

A mistake of that magnitude in skydiving and you are DEAD.

You are moving your body faster than it's designed for near other solid objects, and you do not have 3000 pounds of metal and plastic to protect you from impacts.

Joe

[Salsa_John 0]

yea, what you said

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez