What can we do about the USPA.....

[pilotdave 0]

I think I've only been to one non-GM DZ. They DO require USPA membership.

BSRs, student training programs, etc are all voluntary. We follow the guidelines not because they're law like the FARs but because they help keep us safe.

The non-USPA DZ does not follow all BSRs or the ISP exactly. They do have an S&TA though (don't know if he's an "official" USPA S&TA or not) and a DZO that make the safety/BSR enforcement decisions.

The DZ isn't a group member because the DZO can't find a real benefit to joining. But requiring USPA membership, having all USPA-rated instructors, and all that makes sense to help protect the DZ. The jumpers have USPA insurance, they're properly trained, etc.

Dave

[skydived19006 4]

I was being a bit of a “devils advocate” with my response, my point was that there are benefits to having the group members tied directly to/with the individual member.

Also, the USPA does collect what I guess to be well in excess of $100,000 form it's group members, and that's every year. Maybe the split could be justified by the group members complaining that their money is spent on individual benefits as well.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[gjhdiver 0]

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taking care of it's members, and staying out of business it has no place being involved in?


Stop the Group Membership program. The USPA (and the dues I pay to it) are for the individual members benifit, NOT DZ's!!! DZ can hold their own.

I agree. USPA needs to be reminded that it's function is to secure acces sto skydiving, and benefits for, it's membership. Because of the way that elected posts tend to get filled with DZO's, it spends too much time behaving like a trade organization instead. That's why I never cast a vote for anyone for an elected USPA post that is a DZO or has a substantial business interest in the sport. No matter how good that person may be, there's too much potential for conflicts of interest in which the general membership invariably loses.

[diablopilot 2]

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Do one time tandem customers count as jumpers to you?

They typicaly are not members of the USPA.

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And I read that Perris is no longer accepting them.

What's your point. The thread for the discusion of SkyRide and their practices is elsewhere. This is about the USPA and it's function.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[chuckbrown 0]

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This is the best post you have ever written. I'm impressed.

The most simple solution to your problem is to cancel your USPA membership.

Someone with your jump #'s and time in the sport will have no problem boycotting the USPA.

Most dropzones in the area will still allow you to jump
at their facility because they know you and are willing to bend the rules for you.

Now, what is the more typical jumper to do? Every DZ in California is a frekin Group Member. If you don't belong, you can't jump period.

The solution is this.....If enough jumpers cancel their memberships, DZ's will have to let non USPA members jump at their dropzones, assuming they want to stay in business and keep their circle of upjumpers.

Trying to reform the USPA is like beating a dead horse. Just move on and prey that enough people will follow. Only then will you see a real change.

Kbone

Jesus, I love hearing this! What needs to be done is that an alternative to USPA needs to be developed so that jumpers have insurance coverage. Non-GM DZs require USPA membership for the insurance. USPA is an out of control monster.

[Reginald 0]

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taking care of it's members, and staying out of business it has no place being involved in?


Stop the Group Membership program. The USPA (and the dues I pay to it) are for the individual members benifit, NOT DZ's!!! DZ can hold their own.

I appreciate your position, however, it would lend credence to your stand if you would argue your reasons cogently instead of just stating your position. Would you care to detail your reasoning?

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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What's your point. The thread for the discussion of SkyRide and their practices is elsewhere. This is about the USPA and it's function.

Do you feel that taking care of jumpers and the DZ are mutually exclusive points of order? I feel they are interconnected. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't see some huge conspiracy of the USPA sticking it to the members to take care of DZOs. It makes me laugh to hear people bitch about that all the time. The BOD is made up of JUMPERS! This is not some evil or corrupt organization, but jumpers. Do you really think they want to screw things for themselves?

Would I be upset if DZs started their own association? No. But is it really needed in a sport that is so damn small? Why further separate our resources? What exactly does the member (me) lose out on by having the DZ watched/monitored/defended by the USPA? Please tell me, I want exact details. So far, I just hear vague references of "conflict of interest." If this can't be articulated then what are you really bitching about?

I'm a member and I am glad that USPA has gotten involved in the Skyride issue. At the time of this post there are close to 900 posts from USPA members on that topic (making it one of the largest threads ever on this site). There are a good amount of members that do not own a DZ that are helping with those actions as well.

Is USPA perfect? Nope. I have my complaints about them. I used to hear from a former ND all the issues that organization has...it seems some of it is getting better and other areas are the same. There is new blood in there, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens.

You know what needs to be changed? Getting the USPA closer to the members. Having meetings more often and someplace that is easily accessible to the members (like at/near a DZ). To this day, the highest amount of members at a meeting was at the one held at Skydive Chicago. This will also help reduce costs - how much does USPA waste in funds on transportation, meeting space and hotel rooms. Why do the meetings need to be held at expensive locations? All of these points were brought up to the USPA by Roger Nelson. It seems that nothing has happened in this area.

Outside of paying fees and getting a magazine, most jumpers don't know anything about the USPA or who they voted in (IF they voted). The USPA needs to work on making itself more accessible to its members.

If you don't like it that much then put your name on the ballot next time. Or just don't renew your membership this year.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jlmiracle 7]

First, I agree with you that the Group Member Program needs to go away. This has been discussed over and over and over for years. To many GM DZO's on the board to change that.

Second, go to a board meeting, they will let you know why some of it is closed sessions, otherwise, you, as a member, can sit in on most everything discussed. If you do plan on attending a meeting, get yourself familiar with Roberts Rules or Order and find out what edition they are going to be using.

Third, the BOD is trying to do something about Skyride due to the amount of complaints from individual members. Do you expect them to just blow them ALL off? I would hope not.

That's all I've got to say about that before my internet crashes again.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do one time tandem customers count as jumpers to you?

They tipicaly are not members of the USPA.

But we all know that they pay for the turbines, and a percentage of them do become USPA members. For the same reason that the USPA has safety guidelines to promote their well being, it has incentive to curtail behavior that gives the sport a black eye.

And why shouldn't it act in the interests of the multiple individuals whose intellectual property was stolen? They're members as well, and it's far more efficient for the point of attack to come from the USPA.

You see this as misrepresentation of the membership...I see quite the opposite.

[Ron 7]

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This is the best post you have ever written. I'm impressed.

The most simple solution to your problem is to cancel your USPA membership.

Someone with your jump #'s and time in the sport will have no problem boycotting the USPA.

Most dropzones in the area will still allow you to jump
at their facility because they know you and are willing to bend the rules for you.

Now, what is the more typical jumper to do? Every DZ in California is a frekin Group Member. If you don't belong, you can't jump period.

The solution is this.....If enough jumpers cancel their memberships, DZ's will have to let non USPA members jump at their dropzones, assuming they want to stay in business and keep their circle of upjumpers.

Trying to reform the USPA is like beating a dead horse. Just move on and prey that enough people will follow. Only then will you see a real change.

I don't normally agree with you...But I do here.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[slug 1]

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And my thread is an answer to those calls, and a call for support against USPA becoming involved in concerns it was never created for.

Hi JP

Affirmative If the USPA members have a problem with USPA's actions they need to contact their elected reps and express their concerns.

R.I.P.

[diablopilot 2]

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You see this as misrepresentation of the membership...I see quite the opposite.

May members also thing the price of skydiving equipment is artificialy high. Should the USPA be involved in that?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

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I does'nt take much to impress you but once again, your response fails to impress anyone else :troll:

Do you have to attack him to disagree?

What if I told you I feel the same way? The USPA cannot serve two masters both the Members (You and I) and the DZO's (Group Members).

The USPA is supposed to be a member run organization, but many times they ignore the membership in favor of the DZO's.

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Termination of his or anyones' membership to the USPA is not the answer, termination of membership and people who encourage others to terminate their makes it more difficult for the USPA to do the job the membership has tasked them to do within the scope of their purpose. Termination of his membership is not the answer, being an advocate for the individual member is.

When the organization no longer does its job of representing the membership it is no longer a good idea. Chuck, think of the US relvolution. If you no longer feel that you are represented, and you have made efforts to be heard and they ignore you...Leaving might be the only answer.

They will:
1. Wake the fuck up and realise that they are not doing what the members want and change.

2. Dissapear to be replaced by a new organization.

BTW the AOPA does more by accident for skydiving than the USPA does. They have more members and MUCH more of a voice in DC.

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who the hell are you to speak for JP's resolve or constitution for what he feels is right, He never said he intends to boycott the USPA, he did say he disagrees with a position they have taken. He feels that the stance the USPA has assumed is not in the best intrest of the individual members. You have no right to say how he feels or should feel about a "boycott".

No offense, but he has every right to say that.

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So you are saying you have first hand knowledge that a DZO is breaking the rules and allowing non-USPA members to jump at their DZ's, thats a pretty bold statement, do you have factual evidence to support your statement? If not I'd suggest you retract this statment. It sounds to me as if you are envious of the fact that JP has made a name for himself in the industry and that he is respected by his peers. Who the hell is John Strap anyway?

Why are you attacking this guy? If you have a problem with his position please state why...I'd like to hear it.

I *FOR A FACT* know of DZ's that allow non USPA members to jump...Both GM and non GM's. The only real benefit to beinga GM is the insurance....Which its value is often debated.

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So are you saying they break the rules, they don't break the rules or they selectively break the rules?

Every DZ I know breaks rules. From Cloud clearence, repacks, and Aircraft MX. No DZ follows ALL the rules all the time.

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So you are encouraging a boycott of the USPA, I wonder how the USPA would feel about that, do you think it might piss them off enough to pull your ratings and terminate your membership? Probably as likely to happen as a large number of members canceling their membership in protest to the USPAs position on this issue. How stupid does your suggestion sound now?

Still sounds like a workable idea. Why do you support the USPA so much? Have you ever delt with them before? There IS skydiving without the USPA. Sky Dive DeLand does not require membership for instance. There is no law that says you have to be a member of the USPA....NONE. Relate that to SCUBA diving. NAUI, PADI, SSI are ALL just like the USPA..Why is the USPA better than all of them...I would really like to know your thoughts on this.

Having more than one organization would be good for the sport. However it is uunlikley since most don't care enough and the sport is so small that more than one organization most liklely would not do well.

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Well, I gotta agree with you here to a point there Kball reform is tough, but if you believe passionately about an issue then you try, it's part of being a man and an adult that thinks beyond ones self.

Thinking beyond ones self is also making hard choices and not staying on the easy path just cause its easy.

Many people think the USPA has lost sight of its mission. It would be wrong to do nothing about it. A boycott is one way of checking them.

1. What do you think the USPA does that makes them a "Sacred cow" that can't be touched?

2. Have you delt with the USPA on any issue?

3. Do you belong to any other Organizations like the USPA?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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On a somewhat related topic, is it a conflict for USPA to require its Group Member DZs pledge to require individual membership in order to jump at a GM DZ?

Yes it is.

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If the DZs had their own organization, would they still require that skydivers be a member of what would then be a third party organization?

Most likley no.

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I really doubt that the DZs out there that are not USPA Group Members require USPA individual membership to jump at their DZs.

Very few do.

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Since the DZs would no longer be affiliated with USPA, should the USPA also drop all the BSRs, student training guidelines, ratings, etc, as what would the USPA mean to the new DZ organization, and what authority would USPA have to “enforce” their rules on a business that was not affiliated with them?

No the place for the USPA is along the lines of NAUI, or PADI. They have programs to teach and certify people, they have basic rules for safe participation in the sport, they certify instructors and participate in some legal situations.

You notice that if you are NAUI you can dive with a PADI shop? And the reverse is also true.

The USPA shoud drop the GM program....But they will not...Know why?

Because of the GM pledge that states that you will only allow USPA members to jump there...The USPA knows that if that goes away them DZ's will no longer make people be members. and then people would drop the USPA like a hot rock.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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I *FOR A FACT* know of DZ's that allow non USPA members to jump...Both GM and non GM's. The only real benefit to beinga GM is the insurance....Which its value is often debated.

What insurance? Only individual members get insurance through the USPA. So there is even less value to the GM Program.

Since we are talking Group Member Program. how did the tunnel (Orlando) become group member and who decided how much to charge them because their is no tunnel cat on the application.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

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What insurance? Only individual members get insurance through the USPA. So there is even less value to the GM Program

Sorry I meant by making the Jumpers be members and thus having insurance.

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Since we are talking Group Member Program. how did the tunnel (Orlando) become group member and who decided how much to charge them because their is no tunnel cat on the application.

I am sure they just called up and asked...Or filled in a form and sent it in.

I know it is rated by size.....So what they paid is a good question. But since it is really not that expensive to be a GM (The 82nd team and the GB team were both members with NO Aircraft so it can easily happen BTW)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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The USPA is supposed to be a member run organization, but many times they ignore the membership in favor of the DZO's.

On what topics? When, why, how, and does it show it in the minutes?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mjosparky 3]

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Every DZ in California is a frekin Group Member. If you don't belong, you can't jump period.

You are wrong, not every DZ in California is a GM. What you need to do is buy a pet, get out more or start taking medication. The fantasy world you live in is starting to show and most people aren't interested in seeing it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kelpdiver 2]

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You notice that if you are NAUI you can dive with a PADI shop? And the reverse is also true.

But there's more than a few PADI shops that will try to tell you otherwise. Hmm..lying about rival outfits...sounds just like Skyride!

[kelpdiver 2]

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You see this as misrepresentation of the membership...I see quite the opposite.

May members also thing the price of skydiving equipment is artificialy high. Should the USPA be involved in that?

You're suggesting that if the USPA represents its members on one issue, it must do so on every other issue. Your secondary issue is irrelevent to the first one.

If enough people are unhappy AND CAN SEE A USPA SOLUTION, then let em at it. But that's its own topic thread. I haven't seen 1000 posts on it myself.

If people find parachutes overpriced, they can buy less often. ZPs last a lot longer than people keep them. Instruments are very well priced, quite relative to those in other sports. I can't say if containers should be cheaper- Wings goes for close to 1000 and I've paid 500 for a diving BC that was essentially a piece of steel, some webbing, and an air bladder. Prices seem pretty typical for a niche sport.

[Shotgun 1]

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Stop the Group Membership program. The USPA (and the dues I pay to it) are for the individual members benifit, NOT DZ's!!! DZ can hold their own.

I seem to remember USPA helping the dz's a few years ago and I don't recall anyone complaining:

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September 2001 - The House Aviation Subcommittee held a hearing on the economic impacts of the airspace shutdown on aviation businesses. Using financial data supplied by DZs, USPA testified on behalf of skydiving businesses and ensured that they were eligible for government assistance programs.

September 2001 - Jump plane operators were grounded, along with everyone else in the days following the terrorist attacks. USPA immediately engaged senior FAA management and White House staff with information about jump plane operations. Most DZs were back in action after losing only one weekend, and long before banner tow, news, and aerial survey aircraft operators.

I don't know enough about the Skyride issue to have an opinion on whether they should be involved or not, but the 9/11 shutdown was the first thing that came to mind when you said that USPA shouldn't be helping DZ's. I was certainly glad they were involved at that time because I was pretty much out of work during the shutdown (since I worked at the dz).

[slug 1]

Hi Ron

I agree with you also. Damn JP's on the west coast and your on east coast makes a person wonder how the people in the middle of the US think about USPA.

Maybe more than one issue will be resolved by dealing with ASC issue.

Deland doesn't require USPA membership? Might be a reason to visit florida again since I'm not a USPA member

R.I.P.

[dgskydive 0]

Don't even worry about KBONE. He has been shown to be a muckracker and Liar.

Call it a personal attack if you want KBONE, but it is the truth. Still waiting on your response to when you wrongfully and knowingly lied about me selling the wrong gear to someone. I think HH should just ban you and get it over with.

Dom

[skr 1]

How about running for the board of directors,
and if you don't make it then get involved in
the relevant committees and doing some of
the work, and when you become a known
quantity start making a difference where the
differences get made?

Skr

[penniless 0]

The GM issue and the Skyride issue are separate.

Skyride appears to be operating in a fraudulent manner that damages legitimate dropzones. It thus becomes an issue to skydivers who need access to DZs. It thus becomes USPA business.

I am pleased that USPA is following up on this.