What can we do about the USPA.....

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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If skyride is stealing business from dropzones, those dropzones need to do something about it with their money. They are protecting their business.

Kris.

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I guess the USPA should withdrawl assistance for those DZ's having airport and air access issues. Its their business, not the USPA's to fight their battles. The USPA should also quit helping to get STC's for jump plane operators since its their business to do that and not the USPA's. USPA also needs to ignore extending the repack cycle since its not actually heling keep you in the air, you already can do that. Also they should quit assisting the tandem manufactors in getting the FAR's reworked since tandem students are'nt USPA members right?

Chill Dude. I did not say any of the things you write in your post.

Kris.

[jlmiracle 7]

The inspection program is not bad for members, its bad for DZ's so they don't use the inspection program because they all know they won't pass.

judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

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Please, explain to me how this recommendation is bad for the members?

The ISP was created to help students since the current program was lacking.

The USPA created the program...A Good thing. Then when the DZO's cried about how hard it would be to implement the USPA backed down from doing it...

The ISP was good for students, but bad for DZO's....DZO's won, students lost.

The USPA should have stuck to their guns and kept the ISP as mandatory...It was what was best for the students and jumpers...But they caved to the DZO's.

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How is the inspection program bad for the members?

The inspection program would be GREAT for the members..IF the USPA actually did them. Only one DZ has ever been inspected and they failed. It is a voluntary program and no DZ will do it. To be a GM you should have to do more than just pledge to follow a BSR. The GM program is nothing more than a way for the USPA to ensure that people join the USPA...If DZ's did not require USPA membership, membership would drop.

To prevent that the USPA requires all GM DZ's to only allow USPA members to jump there. That makes it so people have to join the USPA to jump in many places.

On a recent poll, by the USPA the #1 reason why people were members was because they had to be members. #2 (a FAR #2) was the magazine.

If the USPA dropped the GM program, then DZ's would drop the need for people to be USPA members, and the USPA would lose many people.

That is the only reason the GM program is still around.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

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The ISP was good for students, but bad for DZO's....DZO's won, students lost.

Students are rarely USPA members. How is this a conflict of interest if the loosing parties aren't members?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mnealtx 0]

I can't speak for all places, but at Skydive Houston I had to become a USPA member as a student...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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The ISP was created to help students since the current program was lacking.

The USPA created the program...A Good thing. Then when the DZO's cried about how hard it would be to implement the USPA backed down from doing it...

The ISP was good for students, but bad for DZO's....DZO's won, students lost.

What about those DZs that have a better, more robust and well thought out student program? Would it be fair for them to take a step backwards? Isn't that working against the students and future members?

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If the USPA dropped the GM program, then DZ's would drop the need for people to be USPA members, and the USPA would lose many people.

That is the only reason the GM program is still around.

That may be true. But do you see no good in keeping the USPA around? I've called the AOPA (my membership has lapsed for the moment) and asked them about Skydiving - they told me they would never dedicate any of their efforts specifically to anything jump related. Looks like we need our own association then.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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The inspection program is not bad for members, its bad for DZ's so they don't use the inspection program because they all know they won't pass.

judy

So what do you think Judy - does the USPA work more for the DZOs or the members? Or are the two things to closely connected that you can't seperate it?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 7]

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Students are rarely USPA members. How is this a conflict of interest if the loosing parties aren't members?

Because the USPA has rules in place that most students have to become members before a certain point in the program...I know places that make students buy temp memberships with the FJC.

Also it should be the USPA's job to provide a good program of instruction. The ISP was a good start, but the DZO's made the USPA back down.

That hurts the students and they are the future of the sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

I am completely against the Group Member Program in its current form.

Let's look at the Tunnel that is a Group Member DZ. They will allow any body to fly there, regardless if they are a USPA member or not. Plus if you look at a GM Program application, there is no Cat for tunnel and how to charge them. I don't believe they should be listed as a GM DZ. If so they need to be charged as if they were flying a jet.

The only benefit of the GM Program is the "free" advertising in Parachutist. If they actually charged for that space instead of giving it up to the GM's DZ, that program might come close to paying for itself.

Group Member Committee should not be in charge of who can and who cannot have a rating course at their dz and if they should be charged for not being a GM DZ. The rating course are for the members, not the group members and should fall under the Safety and Training Committee and not the Group Membership Committee.

I sat through a good portion of the last BOD meeting and well, IMO, some more changes need to be made to the BOD, but it is coming along, slowly.

I would still be a member of the USPA regardless if DZ's required it or not.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

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What about those DZs that have a better, more robust and well thought out student program? Would it be fair for them to take a step backwards? Isn't that working against the students and future members?

If the program was really better and more robust all of the topics in the ISP would be covered. So it would hurt no one.

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That may be true. But do you see no good in keeping the USPA around? I've called the AOPA (my membership has lapsed for the moment) and asked them about Skydiving - they told me they would never dedicate any of their efforts specifically to anything jump related. Looks like we need our own association then.

The AOPA is the reason we were flying after 9/11, not the USPA.

The AOPA is about GA. AOPA has about 400,000 members. The USPA has about 35,000.

If you think the USPA has any "juice" in DC....Well, think about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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The ISP was good for students, but bad for DZO's....DZO's won, students lost.

Students are rarely USPA members. How is this a conflict of interest if the loosing parties aren't members?

_Am

Students are required to join USPA by their fourth skydive, at least at any of the schools I have ever worked at.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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And USPA members are protecting the places they go to jump. Do you like jumping at SDC? Like their jump ticket prices? (I know the answer). Skyride has one of its BOGUS dropzones shown right there on its map. Are YOUR interests served if SDC and Hinckley are defrauded out of income?

I jump at SDC because I like the facilities not because I like the jump ticket prices. I would still jump there if the prices were much higher. Just FYI, I paid full price for all my jump tickets last season.

Kris.

[Amazon 7]

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Aren't DZs often, to a large degree, up-jumper-financed skydiving clubs? Sure, the DZO makes profit or he/she wouldn't be doing it

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is some of the funniest shit you have ever posted......


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[PhreeZone 14]

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The only benefit of the GM Program is the "free" advertising in Parachutist.

Thats not near true. Ask any DZ thats had issues and needed assistance from the USPA lawyers.

I hate the GM program in its current for also, but at least put all the facts on the table.

Here is a break down of GM benifits:

B. Free Advertising:
1. A no-cost fax and phone listing in each issue of Parachutist magazine.
2. A no-cost listing in the USPA DZ Directory.
C. USPA-sponsored insurance.
D. USPA courtesy inspection and recognition of participation.
E. A copy of the USPA Skydiving Aircraft Operations Manual.
F. Access to USPA research and case files.
G. Support from the Airport, Access and Defense Fund in accordance with SOP 26.
H. Legal referrals and expert testimony on a case-by-case basis.
I. Government relations support at the state and federal levels on issues affecting state and nationwide skydiving.
J. Timely notification of issues relating to DZ operations.
K. USPA sport promotional programs.

C is a HUGE deal to a lot of DZ's operating out of Municipal airports where they are required to have a 1 Million dollar insurance policy. G has saved a few DZ's from closing due to the USPA being able to hire better lawyers then what the DZO can find in their area. USPA used I to help prevent Nevada from making the BSR's a state law if you remember....

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Greene 0]

Yes, we smile with you Amazon.
Sometime the young ones have not a clue

Lee west

[freakbrother 0]

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And USPA members are protecting the places they go to jump. Do you like jumping at SDC? Like their jump ticket prices? (I know the answer). Skyride has one of its BOGUS dropzones shown right there on its map. Are YOUR interests served if SDC and Hinckley are defrauded out of income?

I jump at SDC because I like the facilities not because I like the jump ticket prices. I would still jump there if the prices were much higher. Just FYI, I paid full price for all my jump tickets last season.

Kris.

Great. Now, are YOUR interests served if the DZs you enjoy can't afford the facilities you like because they are DEFRAUDED out of income by the likes of Skyride, which advertizes BOGUS DZs right where SDC and Hinckley are located?

.
.
www.freak-brother.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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C. USPA-sponsored insurance.

That is an individual member benefit

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D. USPA courtesy inspection and recognition of participation.

That program was canceled after the DZ where USPA's S & TA jumps failed the inspection. DZO's don't want to be inspected since they will all fail and members suffer because of it.

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F. Access to USPA research and case files.

Seems like prosecutions can get that info too.

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I. Government relations support at the state and federal levels on issues affecting state and nationwide skydiving.

USPA can't get the FAA to do anything. USPA dove tails on AOPA's shirt tails,

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J. Timely notification of issues relating to DZ operations.

A subscription to Skydiving Magazine will do the same thing.

USPA's mantra of what is good for DZ's is good for jumpers says it all. USPA is a DZO's organization, not a members organization.

The USPA GM program creates a conflict of interest between DZO's and DZ's.

The Voluntary Inspection Program's failure is a prime example of why USPA is failing to serve its members. A mandatory Inspection administered by an unbiased third party, to become a GM would lend creditability to the GM program. As it stands, it is a stamp that students can be impressed by. They have no way to know that it doesn't mean anything at all, just like they get sucked into the Skyride scam. Another example is the ISP. Instead of making the ISP mandatory (or exceed its minimum requirements as a few DZ’s do), they made it optional. This allows DZ’s with programs that don’t meet ISP minimums to continue with sub-standard training programs. When USPA went to raise the bar to the state of the art, DZO’s protested and USPA backed down. Members suffer for it.

Being a GM DZ means you wrote the check, nothing more. DZ's don't follow the BSR's when they don't want to and nothing happens to them.

USPA is a joke. They refuse to enforce their own BSR’s and continue to exist because of the misconception of students believing GM DZ’s are somehow better than non-GM DZ’s and because USPA serves DZO’s so they continue to require USPA membership.

The GM program should be eliminated in its entirety. USPA cannot serve both its members and DZO’s. Right now, members lose every time USPA must choose between DZO’s or its members.

Derek

[slug 1]

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Yes, we smile with you Amazon.
Sometime the young ones have not a clue

Lee west

But but but

If a fun jumper makes 100 jumps at $5 profit WAG thats $500 and a tandem makes only 1 jump thats only $50 profit WAG so 10 tandems in one day equals the profit from one fun jumper in a yr.

Golly gee There's money in them there tandems the more tandems the more money a DZO can make.
Dear DZO Have I got a deal for you I'll take your tandems and let you keep your fun jumpers.

50 tandems on a day good day is a lot of "work"
R.I.P.

[Kbone 0]

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You are wrong, not every DZ in California is a GM.

OK, fair enough. I just cross referenced every dropzone listing on DZ.com with the "Group Member" listing on USPA.ORG and found one! thats right one DZ that is not a group member, the "Parachute Center" in Acampo, CA.

It's only 350 miles from LA with a 5 hour drive!

The only "non-group member" listing in Southern California is Air Adventures West in Taft, which hasn't existed for 2 years!

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The fantasy world you live in is starting to show and most people aren't interested in seeing it.

It appears that I'm not the one living in a fantasy world. If every dropzone is a Group Member, I'm stuck paying for membership which makes USPA a monopoly. Maybe its time for the government to investigate, the same way they did with Microsoft!

Imagine having to belong to a "National Ski Organization" in order to ski anywhere in Southern California! Even though we own our own gear, pay our own tickets and have the experience, we still have to pay to play.

No other sport except skydiving tolerates this, and that is because people are scared to question and only interested in fitting in with the status quo.

[kelpdiver 2]

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OK, fair enough. I just cross referenced every dropzone listing on DZ.com with the "Group Member" listing on USPA.ORG and found one! thats right one DZ that is not a group member, the "Parachute Center" in Acampo, CA.

It's only 350 miles from LA with a 5 hour drive!

I'm suprised you're not familiar with Lodi. It's not exactly a small time DZ. Close enough to us up North too. And instead of making a beer run, lots of wine!

[skydived19006 4]

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***
Here is a break down of GM benifits:

B. Free Advertising:
1. A no-cost fax and phone listing in each issue of Parachutist magazine.
2. A no-cost listing in the USPA DZ Directory.
C. USPA-sponsored insurance.
D. USPA courtesy inspection and recognition of participation.
E. A copy of the USPA Skydiving Aircraft Operations Manual.
F. Access to USPA research and case files.
G. Support from the Airport, Access and Defense Fund in accordance with SOP 26.
H. Legal referrals and expert testimony on a case-by-case basis.
I. Government relations support at the state and federal levels on issues affecting state and nationwide skydiving.
J. Timely notification of issues relating to DZ operations.
K. USPA sport promotional programs.

....

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, and within this string in general. One thing I find a bit of irony in is the repeated use of the word “free”, when you know that they write a check to be a Group Member. I suppose that you get a “free” magazine every month, “free” third party insurance, etc with your individual membership.

Sounds like something right off a bad info-mercial “free for only $200.00”

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[darkwing 4]

I guess I'll chime in with my vote.

I don't think we need to do anything. USPA is a fine organization, attempting to herd cats, and getting by.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[stl135 0]

Support it. Without USPA our sport would have no chance of survival. There few things that I don't agree with USPA, but when I focus on the big picture, I see the results of USPA's hard work, especially on the Government Relations. Fellow jumpers don't foul yourselves; we still the "black sheep" of aviation. My personal experience is that every time I encounter an airport access or aircraft issue with the FAA or local authorities, USPA was there to defend the rights of skydiving/skydivers. Here is an example:Copied from USPA website.
**************************************
Jump Planes Exempt from TAWS (02/01/05)
USPA has deflected an FAA requirement for a Terrain Awareness and Warning System potentially costing tens of thousands of dollars per turbine jump plane. The rule requires installation of a TAWS by March 29, 2005, on all turbine aircraft with six or more passenger seats. USPA successfully argued that jump planes should be exempt since they fly only in visual flight conditions. The FAA agreed and wrote an exemption for jump aircraft into the final rule. Click here for the final rule summary.
***************************************
The issue with Skyride is a very sensitive situation and needs to be handle carefully. It's obvious that it has caused a lot discussion and at this point, I think USPA is trying to do it's job.
Without jumpers there are no DZ's, without DZ's jumpers don't have place to go...Without USPA, there is no skydiving.
One more thought: I heard this before:
"There are 3 things that threatens skydiving/skydivers:
1- Gravity,
2- Government Authorities,
3- Pettines among jumpers..."
You think about that...

[jlmiracle 7]

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The only benefit of the GM Program is the "free" advertising in Parachutist.

Thats not near true. Ask any DZ thats had issues and needed assistance from the USPA lawyers.

I hate the GM program in its current for also, but at least put all the facts on the table.

Here is a break down of GM benifits:

B. Free Advertising:
1. A no-cost fax and phone listing in each issue of Parachutist magazine.
2. A no-cost listing in the USPA DZ Directory.
C. USPA-sponsored insurance.
D. USPA courtesy inspection and recognition of participation.
E. A copy of the USPA Skydiving Aircraft Operations Manual.
F. Access to USPA research and case files.
G. Support from the Airport, Access and Defense Fund in accordance with SOP 26.
H. Legal referrals and expert testimony on a case-by-case basis.
I. Government relations support at the state and federal levels on issues affecting state and nationwide skydiving.
J. Timely notification of issues relating to DZ operations.
K. USPA sport promotional programs.

C is a HUGE deal to a lot of DZ's operating out of Municipal airports where they are required to have a 1 Million dollar insurance policy. G has saved a few DZ's from closing due to the USPA being able to hire better lawyers then what the DZO can find in their area. USPA used I to help prevent Nevada from making the BSR's a state law if you remember....

C does not exist - There is no insurance provided to the Group Members. The only insurance is third party insurance for INDIVIDUAL members.

The GM program does not even cover the advertising, not to mention all the other administrative head aches they cause.

and everything Hooknswoop said.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[ninjaswooper 0]

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Great. Now, are YOUR interests served if the DZs you enjoy can't afford the facilities you like because they are DEFRAUDED out of income by the likes of Skyride, which advertizes BOGUS DZs right where SDC and Hinckley are located?

Umm, some DZ will obviously get the income from the tandems sold by skyride and then would logically be able to afford the facilities we all like (turbines, a/c packing, lots o loads, organizing, etc.) So, an analogy of sorts... You like to shop at store A, it's a sweet little store in your mind. But it just so happens that shop B does a much better job of marketing, whatever, and eventually shop A's business suffers so that it can no longer provide you with the services you require (say you only buy chocolate, but the real money's in selling soda pop and it just so happens that's what your shop really sucks at) Now, being the chocolate lover you are are you going to stop buying all together, or get a fix from shop B?

A friend of mine once told me "jumpers are like whores, give them the right planes and right facilities, and they'll come to your DZ" Seems appropriate when I can certainly say that I've personally seen the faces of some of ASCs detractors jumping from our very own twin-otter in lovely Cedartown, GA.