old yet more radical canopy Vs down sizing on better design

[Westie 0]

Hi guys and girls.

Ive got about 300 jumps and am thinking of getting a new main. Ive recently been told that I can do two things if I want to get a main with better performance.

either down sizing but staying with the saber 2 or moving on to a stilleto ( or something similar) that is about the same size as my current main canopy.

Does the fact that the Sabre 2 is a modern Canopy make it a higher performing main in comparison to a old stilletto of similar/larger size?

I am intending to get on a canopy course soon and I am very current so please no comments on the fact I have relatively low jump numbers, thanks.

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[grega 0]

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Does the fact that the Sabre 2 is a modern Canopy make it a higher performing main in comparison to a old stilletto of similar/larger size?

Hmm not really, sabre 2 is also newer design than velocity, but i don't think it's higher performing.

Then again what does "higher performing" mean to you?

"George just lucky i guess!"

[ianmdrennan 2]

In order to answer your question we need to know what your canopy goals are, and where you are currently in your canopy flight progression. Also we need to know what you're looking for in a canopy (what characteristics you want). Each canopy has different things they do well, it all depends how their traits fit into both your goals, flying style and what you want to get out of your canopy.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[damion75 0]

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Does the fact that the Sabre 2 is a modern Canopy make it a higher performing main in comparison to a old stilletto of similar/larger size?

As grega said, define 'high performance'! the speed of a canopy is,as far as I am aware, primarily governed by wingloading. Thus a 150 Stilletto is not significantly faster forwards than a 150 Sabre2. The Difference is in the turns and the landings - the Stilletto will be very different to fly turning harder and diving far more in the turns and it is that tendency to lose height in the turn which is most likely to catch out someone unused to an elliptical canopy. I have just put about 100 jumps on my first elliptical (Vision 150) and am learning all this by playing at high altitudes!

Surely there is someone at South Cerney who can discuss this with you? If not then why not make a trip to Nethers where there are several very good canopy pilots who will be able to give you the detail that I can't.

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Westie 0]

For me I require something thats gonna get me back from long spots.but has the ability for me to learn how to swoop on it with an reasonable margin for error.

My overall goal is to learn how to swoop correctly. in about 6 to 700 hundred jumps time I would like to have have a good foundation of knowledge so that I am confident in getting on a high performance wing.

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[Westie 0]

sure thing cant wait to get back down the DZ, I'd just like to get a heads up before the season starts!

See you around.

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[ianmdrennan 2]

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The Difference is in the turns and the landings - the Stilletto will be very different to fly turning harder and diving far more in the turns and it is that tendency to lose height in the turn which is most likely to catch out someone unused to an elliptical canopy.

The Stiletto turns much faster than a Sabre2, is more prone to oversteer but DOES NOT lose more altitude in a turn. The Sabre2 loaded the same will lose more but will turn and respond slower.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

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My overall goal is to learn how to swoop correctly. in about 6 to 700 hundred jumps time I would like to have have a good foundation of knowledge so that I am confident in getting on a high performance wing.
13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

I wouldn't even put the Stiletto on your list then. If I were to recommend a progression (on PD's products as I am most familiar with them) I'd do (obviously this is over time):

Sabre2 until you get to it loaded around 1.7-1.8
Katana SAME SIZE as the sabre2 you just stepped off of until you're loading it around 2.0
Velocity for loadings 2.1 or higher.

Blues.
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[damion75 0]

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The Stiletto turns much faster than a Sabre2, is more prone to oversteer but DOES NOT lose more altitude in a turn. The Sabre2 loaded the same will lose more but will turn and respond slower.

Blues,
Ian

Well there you go! You learn something new every day! thanks! Does the Sabre2 lose more altitude because it is turning slower and therefore for longer maybe? I would suggest that the turn on the Sabre2 is more predictable surely? and easier to stop if you realise that you are at risk of going too low...

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Westie 0]

Cheers,

Thats just what I was looking for! Nice one!

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Does the Sabre2 lose more altitude because it is turning slower and therefore for longer maybe?

Yep, I'd say that factors into it. The Sabre2 also has a longer recovery arc than the Stiletto so that comes into play as well.

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I would suggest that the turn on the Sabre2 is more predictable surely?

Definately. Yanking down a toggle on a Sabre2 and a Stiletto will yield to very different results. The Stiletto will have you horizontal with your canopy in a heatbeat. It's just a lot more "twitchy".

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and easier to stop if you realise that you are at risk of going too low...

Well it's a catch 22. Because the Stiletto dives less you're turning it lower to the ground, but because it planes out faster you can stop turning lower than a Sabre2 and be just fine. The Sabre2, because it dives longer, gives the pilot more time to make corrections but also means the descent will take longer to stop. Each canopy will require a different technique so applying the wrong technique to ANY canopy can have unpleasant results.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

I know you said you're ultra current, so I'l just ask that you go through the progression thoroughly and with coaching. It's not a race and treating it as such will only mean you'll need to go back and fix bad habits later (which is harder cause they're more ingrained). It feels slow at first to get all the things down, but once you do the rest of the progression will go much faster.
Have fun.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[billvon 2,394]

Depends on your goals.

Swooping? Stiletto is hard to learn on because of its short arc. I really like the Nitro as a learning-to-swoop canopy because its arc is fairly long and it's very predictable. Sabre2 isn't a bad choice either.

Glide? The Stiletto may give you a slightly better glide than the S2; it's trimmed pretty flat.

Openings? Stay away from the stiletto! They open softly but somewhat unpredictably, and are somewhat prone to spinning up. A new S2 (i.e. one built after the turning problem was fixed) should give you better openings.

Manueverability? The Stiletto will likely feel more manueverable to you; beware that this does not translate into a good swooping canopy on its own.

[DJL 232]

"For me I require something thats gonna get me back from long spots.but has the ability for me to learn how to swoop on it with an reasonable margin for error."

Sounds like a perfect combination for injuring yourself on an off field landing. Basically, if you're trying to get back, then you're ignoring the nice big spots to land and you're left with whatever is inside of the last row of trees that you just decided you can't cross. Why not get something that you can land out but still has high performance characteristics?

To get back to your initial question. I'm in the same spot and I'm trying an array of canopies close to my current size and then I'll downsize once I've mastered their characteristics.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[packerboy 3]

I've got amount the same #'s as you, and I am in the same boat. I cannot speak from an experienced point of view at all, so my take on canopy characteristics doesn't go very far.

This I can say though.. I put a few jumps on a Stilletto and a few on a Katana... I liked the jumps on the Katana alot more. The openings are gorgeous and the canopy felt more "solid". That being said I am VERY new to the sport and don't know a whole lot. That is my 1 cent... I'm still saving..

.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I've got amount the same #'s as you, .....I liked the jumps on the Katana alot more.

I would highly (and I mean really really HIGHLY) recommend you stay away from the Katana until you have at a very minimum 2x your current jump #'s.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

Short easy (not complete) lesson:

Planform (shape) decides how a canopy will handle in a turn.

Square will turn slower, eliptical will turn faster. Semi-eliptical is a mix.

Size equals speed.

Its best to change one thing at a time....Pick the Planform you like before you pick the speed you want.

Basicly demo they style of canopy to get the flight you like, and then pick the size to get the speed.

*there are other factors such as trim...But this still applies, pick the canopy, then pick the size. Don't change more than one thing at a time if you can help it....And if you do, take it easy.

All that been said. If you can do all of Bills famous list....I'd get a Sabre 2 one size smaller.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[larsrulz 0]

Since it looks like Freddie got his question answered, I figure it's not so bad to semi-hijack his thread.

Do people think a samurai is a good learning canopy? I'm not personally all that interested in becoming a "swooper" persay, just interested in becoming an all-around canopy pilot. My progression was sabre at 1:1 for about 150 jumps then sabre2 around 1.1:1 for probably 50 jumps then my 1.22 samurai for the past 50 jumps and hopefully using it until 500+. Is this a good progression?

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[Ron 7]

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Do people think a samurai is a good learning canopy? I'm not personally all that interested in becoming a "swooper" persay, just interested in becoming an all-around canopy pilot. My progression was sabre at 1:1 for about 150 jumps then sabre2 around 1.1:1 for probably 50 jumps then my 1.22 samurai for the past 50 jumps and hopefully using it until 500+. Is this a good progression?

Nothing wrong with a Sam....

Your progression is excelent, but what can you do with the canopies before you get a new one is the true test if its a good progression.

Can you do the famous Bill's list? If not, then downsizing at any number of jumps is not enough.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[The111 0]

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"For me I require something thats gonna get me back from long spots.but has the ability for me to learn how to swoop on it with an reasonable margin for error."

Sounds like a perfect combination for injuring yourself on an off field landing. Basically, if you're trying to get back, then you're ignoring the nice big spots to land and you're left with whatever is inside of the last row of trees that you just decided you can't cross. Why not get something that you can land out but still has high performance characteristics?

Either you or I are misunderstanding his words.

Saying that you want something that will help you get back from long spots (i.e. something with a good GR) does NOT alone imply that you suffer from get-back-itis. It just means you'd like to avoid the situation as much as possible, which is smart in my book...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[PhreeZone 15]

A Sam is a great step up from a Sabre2 with out going Crossbraced. Once PD gets the Katana 135 done I'll tell you heads up which is my choice.

I'm planning on using my Sam 136 at 1.45 (lost weight this winter ) in the Ohio CPC series this summer. I know I'm not setting any records with it but it will do great for another 500-700 jumps till I step to a 120.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[larsrulz 0]

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Nothing wrong with a Sam....

Your progression is excelent, but what can you do with the canopies before you get a new one is the true test if its a good progression.

Can you do the famous Bill's list? If not, then downsizing at any number of jumps is not enough.

As opposed to the less famous Bill's list?

I went through his list for each of the sabre and sabre2. Felt a little rushed with only 50 jumps at that 1.1, but given I was able to complete his list without feeling that I was in over my head is why I felt fine with getting the sam. Trying to go through everything on the sam now; I figure that one should be able to do the list while the canopy is your canopy of choice, instead of before you get a new one. Being able to flare turn your canopy before downsizing doesn't help you 100 jumps before hand when you couldn't and need to. The only thing I have yet to do is the flat turn on the sam...I have planned to do it a number of times, but the wind conditions I have been dealt did not feel comfortable trying it, so hopefully one of these days. None the less, I love the sam (much more than the equal sized stilleto I have tried a few times), so don't intend to get rid of it for a long while.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[DJL 232]

Yeah, I know this, just making a bigger deal than necessary out of his choice of language. It seems like such a marginal thing around which to make your decision. But having flown a Tri for the last few hundred I feel his pain.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[vdschoor 0]

I noticed from your profile that you are loading your Sabre2 at about 1.3 a nice loading, if I were you I'd downsize on the Sabre2..

I am still flying my Sabre2 150 (although loaded at 1.6 / 1.7) and keep having more and more fun with it..
I've flown a Sabre2 135, Stiletto 150 and Stiletto 135 to find out what I want next.. my next canopy is going to be another Sabre2, this time a 135.

Learning how to swoop on the Sabre2 works very well, at least it's working for me fairly well.. evidence attached

Be safe... the Stiletto is a different kind of animal.. like everybody else said.. you have to turn lower, and input is reacted to MUCH more agressive..

[damion75 0]

Great photo Iwan!

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.