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Praetorian

land it or cut it?

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It opened well, during the control check one of the following is wrong

A Breaks are stuck (slider pined them or something)
B worse only one is stuck
C Line is broken somewhere

I know you'd notice quickly if one came unstowed or broke above the stow etc .. my question is what now,

I've only actually attempted one rear riser landing with mixed results (didn't stand it up but ended up unhurt) I praticed it up high for most of the flight its not easy. But I know I can do it and survive

So the question is, when checking out your main, you notice something is not right but its still controlable fully inflated and stable ... I've still heard people advising a cut away on any steering malfunction. So what is the line, what level of Problem rises to the cutaway point, anyone know of something that might look ok but then develop into something unlandable? I know some of this is opinion so if you state your personal case and it would varry by experience or design of main please include that in the answer if its an absolute .. X can or will become unlandable make it clear that X may look ok but should be cut

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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Personally, if it's controllable with a broken line, I'd land mine. But bear in mind that I'm loading my 135 pretty lightly and practise rear riser landings fairly regularly.
If it's spinning due to a stuck brake and I can't sort out the problem, but can steer straight with cross control on one riser, I'd think more seriously about chopping it - the idea of a parachute that needs input just to fly straight doesn't appeal to me. I know some people who would almost certainly land something like this.
If it takes a lot of effort just to get it to steer straight, it's a chop for me.

Again, these are only my cut-off points. If I didn't practise landing on risers regularly, or loaded my canopy more, the chances of chopping would probably increase.

Will

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So the question is, when checking out your main, you notice something is not right but its still controlable fully inflated and stable ... I've still heard people advising a cut away on any steering malfunction. So what is the line, what level of Problem rises to the cutaway point, anyone know of something that might look ok but then develop into something unlandable? I know some of this is opinion so if you state your personal case and it would varry by experience or design of main please include that in the answer if its an absolute .. X can or will become unlandable make it clear that X may look ok but should be cut
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.



AT Moss Point I had a good dive.. normal opening and when I went to unstow the left toggle came off in my hand and the steering line was streaming out behind the canopy. It was the sunset load I was out over the swamp/bayous.. and it was getting dark. I had a canopy with a steering issue.

Do I want to chop and spend the night searching the swamp ( where SWAMP THING LIVES with his reptilian buddies) in the dark at a boogie when I could be drinking beer at the bonfire.

I had an lightly loaded Triathalon fully inflated canopy flying good so I opted to do a controlability chek.. turns.. rear riser flare several times for practice...... then fly back to the airport set up for landing in NO WIND and along side the taxiway.. Landing was fast a little asymetrical on the side with the steering line still attached and the canopy planed out and flew quite a ways.. with me slipping off my feet onto my but on the mud... Only my pride was hurt. I practice rear riser flares because I used to have a canopy that lost them from time to time. Under this canopy at this place and time I opted for a landing under it..

Last Sunday I had a very hard canopy opening on the same canopy.. the crack of the opening I am sure was registered on seismographs in Nevada. I blew 5 lines and they were dangling around me. The canopy was NOT SQUARE... It was NOT CONTROLLABLE... the entire center of the canopy was higher than 2 outside cells on each side that were trying to fly... I cleared the broken lines away from me Looked down at the Green cutaway pillow griped it.. looked at the silver handle grabbed it then looked at the 3 ring above the cutaway handle and watched them unwind as I pulled the cutaway handle followed immediately by the silver handle.. I extended my arms and legs outward and looked up as I fell away from my pilot chute.. the large bridle attaching it to my freebag extended outwards and the lines came unstowed... till it drug the reserve out and it slowly inflated over my head.

I looked up at a BEAUTIFUL Sky Blue Raven -M I saw my freebag and pilot chute drifting above me and my trashed main fluttering just above that. For a moment I though about catching both of them but decided that would be a pretty stupid move and I might get a canopy entanglement with the discarded items. I unstowed the brake lines.. flew around a bit doing some practice turns ( yes I had actually jumped a Raven before as a main) I did a couple practice flares.. then set up for landing. I flew it in did a good flare right on the edge of the peas with a sweet stand up landing.

Not too bad at all for my first square reserve ride and my first standup under a reserve ( 6th cutaway and all the other rides were under round reserves and I did NOT stand those up)


The moral.. If its inflated and is controlable... and landable ( practice what to do with this up high and learn how your canopy flys with rear riser turns and flares before you HAVE to do it).. fly it.. if you do not think that would be wise its time to go to plan B and cutaway and fly your reserve.

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Track away from 80 way attempt. Pull. Whack. Hardest opening ever. When brain returns to functioning look up to see 2 center D lines trailing behind. Check altitude - 1600 feet. Controlability check - it turns, it kinda flares. Do I chop it? Do I land it?

I chose to land it. Wasn't pretty but I walked back to the packing area.

After having the canopy inspected I was told that there were 1" rips in the fabric at both steering line attachments. Could have easily ended up with one or both control lines broken below my hard deck. Having never landed on rear risers that would not have been a good thing.

New personal rules. More than one broken line and I'll be landing my reserve and until I've practiced rear riser landings repeatedly to the point that I'm confident I can walk away from the landing even one broken steering line and I'll be landing my reserve.

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I jump a Hornet 210 loaded at aprox 1.2, I've practiced flares, floating and turns with my rears (risers) and turns and dives with my fronts. I'm pretty comfortable with my knowledge of how my canopy responds to such input. In the event that I would be thinking about using such input for controling/landing a damaged/malfunctioning main canopy then I would do a controllabilty check and if there was time practice the input.
Any doubt, whip it out;)!
A favorite sport accuracy approach of mine involves floating on the rears when slighty short with a quick transition to toggles for flare, this has helped make me comfortable with the idea of landing using rears, I already know how much input and how slow I can approach with'em.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

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New personal rules. More than one broken line and I'll be landing my reserve and until I've practiced rear riser landings repeatedly to the point that I'm confident I can walk away from the landing even one broken steering line and I'll be landing my reserve.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good guidelines Skybytch.

My personal guidelines date back to the good-old-days of F-111 tandem mains. Back then I had 14 tandem reserve rides and landed more damaged tandem mains than I care to remember.

Stuff I have landed:
1 broken upper steering line.
1 broken D line
1 broken center A line (wish I hadn't)
1 bottom skin torn from nose to tail
1 outer D line knotted around #2 D line
all the fabric torn off of slider

Stuff I elected to cutaway from:
holes big enough to drive buses through
2 foot hole in center top skin
broken lower steering line
several line knots
bag lock
streamer,
etc.

The bottom line is: does it pass control check?
If it will not flare well and needs more than a "shoulder" of toggle to keep it flying straight, I grab for silver and red.

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If one or more of my lines are broken because of a hard opening, I would cutaway because of the risk that there might be more damage that I can´t see at the moment. I.e. a tear, more lines that are almost broken.

If one or more of my lines is broken because someone cut it, like on a crw-dive, I would consider landning my main. But it depends on which lines and if I think it will affect the flight.

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I had a 5 foot fore-aft rip in the center cell of my PD210 9 cell loaded at 1.1:1 and stood up the landing quite easily.

When a canopy lands well with that kind of "porosity", who needs ZP fabric ;)
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Good advice and also a leading edge line. One time I landed a mutiple broken line canopy because I was new in the sport and too scared to cut away from something inflated over my head. Let me tell you, I landed hard, fast and did about 4 consecutive PLF tumbles and walked away from it.
Blue Skies
Eric Bernstein
D-9298
ericber@oz.net

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No one has responded about scenario A. I had this happen a few weeks ago. Was demoing a canopy loaded about 2.2. The brake system was very differnt from anything that I have ever jumped, and I did not pack it, so I was not aware of this. Opened, stowed my slider and proceeded to unstow my brakes, so I thought! Pulled on the toggles and wasn't getting anything but rear riser input to the canopy. 3 more attempt with same results. Altitude check and decide I have one more attempt and then It will be chopped. On the last attempt I just snatched the toggle down about as hard as I could and they came unstowed. I landed uneventfully. I did however make a descision to chop this (if it was cleared by my hard deck) due to the fact that the brakes were still stowed. Landing on rears and landing on rear with brakes still stowed are two different things. I would not have landed on rears, on this particular jump, even if the brakes were unstowed, due to the fact it was my first jump on this highly loaded canopy.

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I've flown with the brakes stowed for a short while made a few turns to pratice but very quickly unstowed the breaks.... I never tried a pratice riser landing with the breaks stowed.. how much of a difference is this going to make? will it lessen the range of motion before stall? You'll come in slower (I think) so that would decrease flare .. anything I should know ..( mental note pratice again with brakes stowed) I also have it on my list of to dos to try and fly with both toggles in one hand see how hard that would be to control and land.. any thoughts?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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the canopy stalls a lot quicker when flaring on half breaks with your rear risers. So much so, that it isn't something I'd feel very comfortable doing low to the ground... both brakes stuck? I'm chopping it.

Play with this up high... you can eat up a great deal of altitude trying out different scenarios.

Will

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I've cut away from scenario B. Opened at 3,500' after JMing a load of IAD students. Like a good Stilleto, mine began spinning on opening. Grabbed the rear risers to stable it out, to no avail. Grabbed the steering toggles, right pulled down, left stays put. I could see an obvious tension knot on the left line keeping it from releasing. I had maybe two seconds to think about this as the spin became very rapid...think toes becoming numb. Cut away and pulled my reserve, all by 2,000'. Landed next to all my gear within walking distance of the DZ.

My take is not to attempt heroics with a high performance canopy, especially if you are loading them. Too little oops room.

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I'm not sure, so I'm asking here...

I've done practice rear riser turns/flare up high, and yeah I've noticed that if I'm messing around too much, my arms start to get sore...this concerns me should something happen and I know that I'd need to land on rear risers...don't know that I'd have the strength left to flare very effectively on landing after all the turns to set up. Ok I admit that I'm weaker than I should be...[:/]

HOWEVER, aside from the obvious need to increase my upper body strength, if I were to find myself in any situation, say, tomorrow where I knew I'd be landing on the rears, I would seriously consider chopping to land on my reserve should I be above my hard deck...

Ok is that wrong? Is that a bad idea? Is that plain stupid? I'm just very concerned that I wouldn't have enough strength left for a safe flare on rear risers right at this moment...???

Searching for the main...and free bag...and the reserve repack mean exactly NIL to me in comparison with a possible broken ankle....:( Been there, and that is a pain I NEVER want to revisit.

-And I know that perhaps the almighty $ might be the reason some may perhaps stick it out with a not-so-great main, but how many people have actually thought about it in these terms --> $$ wise...you could buy a new main and freebag for cheaper than ER visit/ankle surgery/phys therapy/casting etc. B|

Just a thought. I'd do just about anything to protect my body over the gear...pain + incapacitated = sucky. :(
~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

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I've not had control line problems, but wouldn't think twice about landing without brakes as I've done numerous rear riser only landings. I've landed a broken outside B-line (wrap victim) and couldn't tell it was missing. There were two instances of broken A lines during the CF world record (one on exit during the first 64-way - he made his slot), and both were landed stand-up without problems. I spoke to the jumpers involved and the main thing they did was make sure they had plenty of speed on final and a smooth flare.

The bottom line for me is controllability. If it flies reasonably well (admittedly subjective) and flares ok up high I'll keep it; otherwise it's gone.

Bob

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KISS principal:

When in doubt:o

Whip it out:)
Nothing fancy:( Cost a little money and might miss a couple of loads>:( But the reserve will workaltitude awareness :)

What's the point of having a $$$$$AAD if you don't trust your reserve?

This doesn't apply to CRW folks, they can land almost anything B|

R.I.P.

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It all goes back to ONE question.

"Do I feel that I can safley land this?"

If yes, then land it...If no then "go plan "B"".

However, I would say this....If it is flying straight and stable..I'd probley land a bigger canopy...If it was taking control inputs to hold a heading...Its gone. Once you get low, if it goes to shit you are screwed.

ANY "A" LINE broken...and its gone...I have seen some nasty shit happen with broken "A" lines.

I jumping 8 way,a nd I had a line knot...Not bad, but it was turning me slowly to the right.

I have a 1.6 loaded stiletto...And it was turbulent on the DZ...So much so that one guy was already taken to the hospital....So turbulent winds and a not perfect canopy? Not for me thanks.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I have a 1.6 loaded stiletto...And it was turbulent on the DZ...So much so that one guy was already taken to the hospital....So turbulent winds and a not perfect canopy?



BOLD added by me

Why even jump in those conditions? a little turbulence is unavoidable (baring totally STILL air) but bad enough that someone already got broken were the conditions changing winds gusting and dropping back?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

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Searching for the main...and free bag...and the reserve repack mean exactly NIL to me in comparison with a possible broken ankle....:( Been there, and that is a pain I NEVER want to revisit.

-And I know that perhaps the almighty $ might be the reason some may perhaps stick it out with a not-so-great main, but how many people have actually thought about it in these terms --> $$ wise...you could buy a new main and freebag for cheaper than ER visit/ankle surgery/phys therapy/casting etc. B|

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree with your financial logic.
The first minute riding in the ambulance will cost more than ANY money saved on gear.

Blue skies,
riggerrob

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It's not the money thing to me. I KNOW how to PLF. My philosophy has and will continue to be what is over my head is a known. What is on my back is an unknown. Sorry, to all the riggers out there, but I trust myself more than I trust you. Even if I was a rigger and packing my own reserve, I'd still trust what I can see rather than what I can't.

If I can keep it flying straight and know I have the room for a straight in landing (upwind, downwind, xwind doesn't matter to me).. I'm landing what I got.

Now, if it keeps deterioriating then when I hit my hard deck (1800) I'm gonna have to let it go like I have in the past.

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Why even jump in those conditions? a little turbulence is unavoidable (baring totally STILL air) but bad enough that someone already got broken were the conditions changing winds gusting and dropping back?
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment



1. I only had 1700 jumps and was still stupid.
2. It was an 8way competition.
3. The guy that had gotten hurt had MUCH less experience than me, and he landed directly downwind of some tall trees, While I was landing right by the mile long runway.

If I had the experience I have now...I would not have jumped. Funny thing about expereince...You get more everyday. Things I used to do back then I would not do today. Even if you told me back then that someday I would not jump in those condidtions. I would not have believed you. I would have listend to you, but I would not have believed you.

If it had not been for the competiton (Which we won) I would not have been jumping.

If I had not been able to land in a wide open area with over half a mile open in front of me, I would not be jumping.

If I was not able to determine that the reason that guy got carted off was directly due to him landing downwind close to trees.I would not have jumped.

So it was stupid. There was no way I could guaranty that I would land in that open are...But I had 1700 jumps and knew it all.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So what is the line, what level of Problem rises to the cutaway point,



My experience with this:

the normal skydive, normal opening routine..

until the canopy started a mild turn to the right immediately after opening, havent done anything with the brakes yet.

my first impression was that a leg strap had slipped (Jonathon 150 @1.3:1) so I leaned left, which did nothing to stop the turn.

I popped the toggles and both lines were intact, but the turn was still there. WTF ?

I needed about 1/2 brakes on the left to get it to fly straight. canopy looked good.

I am really confused.

then I saw it. a line (I have no idea which one, even after reviewing video lots of times) was caught on one of my slider stops.

I practiced flaring, and it flared.

after many altitude checks, 1800 came. time to decide.

I kept it.

I flew a very conservative pattern (duh) flared and PLFed.

In hindsight, there was one potential problem I overlooked at the time. It could have gotten worse low to the ground. If that line popped off, going back to normal, my countering with the opposite toggle would've caused a low turn.. and who knows if I could've caught it in time ??

hindsight is 20/20. this is a grey area question in my opinion like the PC in tow debate and here's why.

You've allready had the first thing go wrong, now you're vulnerable to the second thing going wrong, which kills most skydivers.

It's a dangerous sport.

I did the right thing b/c I lived. if the situation happened again though, I would chop it.

picture of it is attached. the quality isn't that great b/c it's a capture and compressed. but you can see the indentation on the side of the canopy caused by the line over the end.

Bryan, - 2 line-overs now, no cutaways.

D-27808

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I had hard opening once, broke a steering line.
Did a control test on my rear risers, practiced flaring, check the stall point and did a stand up landing on the rears no problem.

Then end of last year I broke one of the lines attached to the stabilizers on the same canopy. Did a control test with my toggles still stowed. The canopy worked perfectly. Then I unstowed my toggles and did another control test.
The canopy was a little worse on the toggles, but I could flare and was confident that I could land it perfectly fine.

The lower I got, the worse the canopy got. Came time for landing and I had to give almost half brake input on the one toggle just to fly straight. Then off-course I had to flare (cause couldn't get myself to just land without flaring.
Big mistake! at flare altitude on a straight approach, the one side of the canopy half collapsed, and I basically hooked into the ground from flare altitude.
Hurt my ankle badly, but nothing broken at least and I walked away.

Next time I snap a line I will think twice about keeping the canopy even after a control test. Canopies could get worse after flying for a while. Second lesson i learned, don't change something that already works!


Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, will be true!

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