Reserve size and AAD

[Praetorian 1]

Just answer the reserve part on the assumption that either you manged to pull or an aad fired.

If you landed under YOUR reserve unconcious or with NO input, no flare.... would you live and or how bad do you think you would be hurt if :

1A open field. just tuched down on grass and sild to a stop

1B smacked into the side af a farm house 2 feet before your limp dangling feet would have touched ground

If you landed YOUR reserve with:

2A MINIMAL imput following AAD fire or EXTREEM low pull from loosing alt awareness.

2B Awake and aware but with 1 arm useless, vision blured all in all fuckedup and not flying near you NORMAL much less you best.

I was thinking about ULTRA small reserves and got to thinking, under a LOT of conditions you are under reserve in something LESS than ideal mental and physical state to be a pilot, pick a landing spot and flare.

Under my Reserve I Could PLF a NO flare landing and walk away un hurt. I could land with no input and likely do nothing worse than break a bone or two. Assuming I did not smack a 30story building, land on a spike or in a lake while unconcious I'd live

There are a lot of skydivers who I DOUBT would could even bluf themselves into thinking they could have a good outcome from a no input landing on their tiny reserve... I'll quote a VERY experienced jumper " no I don't have a cypres it would only fire if I was out cold ... and I doubt I would live under my reserve landing it unconcious"

Thoughts??

EDIT .. For extra credit consider all of these landing opitons with the added variable of UP/DOWN/CROSS WIND ... and for those over achievers HIGH or NO wind(for really high wind assume it changed after lift off)

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Dagny 0]

Don't have any answers to your hypotheticals, but let me say this. I've seen a lot of people injured and a lot of people die. The one thing that I've learned is that no one can predict injury severity or mortality potential. Sometimes you live when it doesn't seem like you should and sometimes you die when it just doesn't make sense. So, my two cents...land as best you can on every skydive and leave it at that.

Here's a question for you since you're interested in the "what if" scenarios. Have you written a living will for yourself? Never a bad idea...

Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali

[Kris 0]

Living will? Check.

As for me, I like to play it safe and have a reserve that's larger than my main. I know, I know...I like to defy trends.

My reserve is a 210 and I think I'd do pretty well under it as I'm only loading it around 1.25.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[f1shlips 2]

Living will? no. That's a concious decision. I don't want some stupid policy dictating if I live or die. There's no way a living will can cover ever possible situation. I'd rather have someone who is awake and aware make the choice.

--
drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend.

[Dagny 0]

Actually, a living will or advance directive can state that you want all resuscitative (or none or a few) interventions to be made. It can determine to what extent and how long you'd like to persist in a vegetative state. It can also dictate a person that you wish to be responsible for making medical decisions should you be unable to. It's not just a pull the plug form. There's so much more to them than that. It's one of the best ways I've seen to make a conscious decision.

Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali

[mr2mk1g 10]

That's a very wide question. It's difficult to predict the injuires. I've got a bit of experiance as I deal with people's injuries arrising out of accidents professionally and I know that 10 very similar accidents can produce 10 very different sets of injuries. I'll give it a go anyway.

Prefaced with the fact that I fly a PD160r at about 1.4 (without taking into account PD's odd reserve measurements).

1a) probably fine. (as an example to what I've already said though I might wake up with grass stains or might die in the field with a broken neck from this one... but I figure probably just bruises and strains... probably).

1b) probably injured. You're travelling at approx 15mph. Maybe a lot more as a canopy will tend to head down wind without input. 15mph - 0 with no crumple zones padding etc is going to damage you. I expect broken bones to be a serious possability although I'm limp so I may be ok. Head injuries are the worst risk here.

2a) pfft. that's an odd Q. What's minimal input? A bit of a flair? probably fine if I'm not going to hit hazzards.

2b) assuming in my "all fucked up state" I have the force of mind to use one hand on both toggles. If so I doubt I'd have much more problem than2a). If not see 1a)... unless there are obsticles in which case see 1b).

Then again... my reserve's not that small. And if you take into account the PD measuring differences it's even bigger than my main.

[davelepka 4]

Ever seen a student land with no flare? Ever seen a student land with no flare, and their brakes still stowed? I have seen both, and it's brutal. This is on a 280+ student canopy, loaded at .75 or under. Brutal.

Who's got a 280 reserve? Anyone? Anyone?

[winsor 186]

Quote

Ever seen a student land with no flare? Ever seen a student land with no flare, and their brakes still stowed? I have seen both, and it's brutal. This is on a 280+ student canopy, loaded at .75 or under. Brutal.

Who's got a 280 reserve? Anyone? Anyone?

Strangely enough, I have a G3R (reserve version of a Wizard) packed in one of my rigs, and a Laser 9 Reserve I haven't been able to fit in anything yet. I'll probably stick it in whatever rig I find to accommodate the ParaFoil 252 I have on hand.

Three Raven IIs, and Swift Pluses in 200 and 175 square foot variants, round things out.

Regardless of how heavily loaded is the main, I want as much nylon overhead as I can get when I pull silver.

Like the joke about the funky British RJ - "How come it has four engines?"

"The designers couldn't fit six under the wings."

My response to the question "How come you have a 218 reserve with your 99 main?"

Is "I didn't have anything bigger handy when I assembled the rig."


Blue skies,

Winsor

[AndyMan 7]

In this thread. I asked people to tell the story about events that led to their Cypres fire.

I don't recall anyone mentioning being unconscious.

I plan for likely scenarios. As much as we like to posture, being unconscious under a Cypres activated reserve simply isn't that common. Most Cypres activations result in a perfectly cognisant jumper landing a perfectly good reserve.

To answer your question, landing my PD reserve (loaded close to 1.7) unconscious under any of the given scenarios would be ugly. That doens't bother me in the slightest.

Open field and unconscious? Probably a broken leg or two.
Side of a building? I hope the choppers get there quickly. I suspect this is the case for lighter wingloadings, too.

Minimal input? No problem. I've downwinded my reserve in 25mph winds, and would have no dificulty doing so again.

1 arm? I can turn and flare my stileto with one arm, I could likely do it with my reserve.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Canuck 0]

The quote from your very experienced skydiver friend seems to completely negate the fact that AADs have saved way more lives jeopordized by loss of altitude awareness than by some type of debilitation (i.e. being out cold). Like probably about 100 to one. To me, that's about the lamest excuse for not having an AAD I've ever heard.

So, I have an AAD and a highly loaded reserve. Yes I believe I would survive any of your landing scenarios if I were consious. As for unconcious, well, lets just say I watched a friend "land" his Velocity 96 with no flare and suffered a broken pelvis. I think my PD 113 with the breaks still set would put me down a little softer than that...

Canuck

[frawley308 0]

I am very concerned with the number of jumpers that I see with small (tiny) highly loaded reserves. When a jump turns into a reserve ride things are already going south. Trying to land a high performance canopy with one arm in the case of an injury on exit or freefall is very difficult. Even getting both toggles unstowed and in one hand is a chore (try it sometime) rear riser flare is all but impossible with one arm. Obviously both arms injured means no flare. Also very often reserves open below 1000' over a spot intended for a much higher opening. Now we have a situation of trying to land a fast canopy that need considererable open ground to flare in a tiny patch of ground off the DZ. Usually ends up in hitting obstacles during the flare or stalling the canopy trying to get into the clearing.
I am a fan of very large docile reserves that I can survive an unconscious landing under. I sometimes think that my old Phantom 26 might not get me back to the DZ but would always get me to the ground alive. Plan for the worst and things can only get better!

[davelepka 4]

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I am a fan of very large docile reserves that I can survive an unconscious landing under. I sometimes think that my old Phantom 26 might not get me back to the DZ but would always get me to the ground alive. Plan for the worst and things can only get better!

Large docile canopies, even with the brakes still set, if flown to the ground will result in more of an impact than people seem to think. The combination of the vertical component and the horizontal add up to quite an impact.

As far as the Phantom reserve goes, that would be my choice for an unconsious landing.

[Canuck 0]

Of course the impact is ugly. As was posted above, we've all seen first jump students injured from no flare landings under Mantas.

The point I'm making is that if you take all the possible scenarios for an AAD fire, even with a small reserve, in almost all the cases you will either walk or limp away.

If someone doesn't want an AAD, that's fine. But come up with a better reason than saying they have no purpose with small reserves.

Canuck

[TrickyDicky 0]

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Trying to land a high performance canopy with one arm in the case of an injury on exit or freefall is very difficult. Even getting both toggles unstowed and in one hand is a chore (try it sometime) rear riser flare is all but impossible with one arm. Obviously both arms injured means no flare.

I think, if you're unconcious you'd do less damage than if you were concious and unable to do anything, with maybe the exception of doing a good PLF.

When unconcious, your whole body goes flaccid. When concious you'll tense up your muscles pre-impact, which makes you more liable to break something.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

Ever seen a student land with no flare? Ever seen a student land with no flare, and their brakes still stowed? I have seen both, and it's brutal. This is on a 280+ student canopy, loaded at .75 or under. Brutal.

Who's got a 280 reserve? Anyone? Anyone?

Funny... 10 min. ago I saw a 190lb guy with a 290 land without flaring AT ALL!!!! outcome? probably could have stood it up..However the winds were blowing a steady 16 mph and we have excellent student gear. (ZP mantas & navigaters)

*before anybody starts throwing BSR's around...we are waivered to 18 MPH because of our location and gear.

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

Ever seen a student land with no flare? Ever seen a student land with no flare, and their brakes still stowed? I have seen both, and it's brutal. This is on a 280+ student canopy, loaded at .75 or under. Brutal.

Who's got a 280 reserve? Anyone? Anyone?

Yes, result... broken femur.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[davelepka 4]

You were jumping yesterday?

If the student had no flare, I blame the instructor 100%. He should have his rating pulled immediately.

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

You were jumping yesterday?

If the student had no flare, I blame the instructor 100%. He should have his rating pulled immediately.

LOL!! Yep jumping ALL day...If your not here, you won't jump! Who said the I was a "he"?? The radio person got the words," One, Two, Three, Three, Three, Three, Three, Three" out before he touched down.(I think I heard 6 three's) I agree with you about pulling ratings...I heard both I's were jumping with a cypres too. These device dependent I's have got to go!!

[davelepka 4]

If the I was not a he, than the ratings shoud be left alone. I like all the she I's. Some of the he I's on the other hand...

[Spizzzarko 0]

"If the student had no flare, I blame the instructor 100%. He should have his rating pulled immediately."


That's a pretty assignine statement. How can you hold an instructor responsible for the actions or innactions of a student, assuming the instructor armed the student with the appropriate knowledge? How many times have you seen an AFF Go awry? Do you think the AFFI's intentionaly briefed the student to de-arch, and to have his feet on his ass?

[davelepka 4]

Check my profile, and the profile I was replying to. If the weather didn't look like crap yesterday, there's a fair chance I would been filing that very student, and his landing. It was just a joke.

[billvon 2,400]

> If the student had no flare, I blame the instructor 100%. He
>should have his rating pulled immediately.

I agree! And we should arrest any instructor whose student doesn't arch. There's just no excuse for that sort of callous disregard for the perfect skydiving form.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Aaaaahhhhh ssssooooooo..... I see your point young jedi mastah....

Sorry for blasting you, I didn't see the insideness of the joke.

[divnswoop 0]

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Do you think the AFFI's intentionaly briefed the student to de-arch, and to have his feet on his ass?

Nope......didn't do that either on this particular student......Somehow he learned that on his own though!
.....Oh by the way, his feet weren't on his ass....they were kicking like he was in a 50M freestyle swim meet.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I like the ones were the student arches through their knees and their nipples, but their ass is straight up in the air! those are the best. There's nothing like a good challenging aff dive to really bring it out in you. Every now and then it's fun to land tired from all the WORK you did on the dive.