0
sabregrl

Landing Out - DZ Procedures

Recommended Posts

Give me a break. This incessant barrage of accusations, innuendo and baseless attacks against Skydive San Diego is nothing more than whiny experienced jumpers trying to get back at the dz management (read that "Buzz" ) for not kissing their asses and giving them everything they want. Who in the world would believe a tandem master would leave student with a broken leg?


We need to cut to the chase here: Keith, Molly and Barbara are three pissed off ex-Otay jumpers who think they're getting back at Buzz, while at the same time encouraging jumpers to go over to Joe Masalta's operation at Brown Field.

THEY should try owning and operating a drop zone. Don't have the money, patience or stones for that? Then don't attack those who DO.

I have jumped at Otay since 1982, and have seen and experienced every operation and owner. The one constant is that SOME experienced jumpers gain a sense of entitlement, and if they don't get what they want they piss on what they had.

Good luck Joe. Just wait till these three don't like how YOU run YOUR dz.


Ron Lee
Rondo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Everyone, please calm down. The purpose my original post was to heighten awareness and make everyone more aware and safe at dropzones - all dropzones. I wasn't pointing fingers. I started the post by asking people to become aware of what their dz procedures were. Our hobby, the hobby we love, could be the thing that kills us. Let's focus on the the purpose of this forum - SAFETY! The point is, something potentially serious could have happened because there was someone who landed out (me) and no one knew where I was. My point was - let's not let it happen again. Let's learn from this. Put forth some definite procedures in place from this point forward. Was this done? That's all that matters. Again, I am taking responsibility for getting on a jump that I was not sure about. I'm not blaming anyone for that. I just want to be safe and feel safe and I want everyone to be aware (more aware) and stop pointing fingers. I used to be staff at this dz, I know Andy is the S&TA, I jump there every weekend (unless I'm out of town or have other commitments), I wanted to remain a-political in all this but I felt unsafe (and a little scared) realizing what could have happened. Instead of being defensive, let's try to work together to make things better. That is the point. Again, I point out that I am lucky. I live in Southern California and get to jump 12 months a year. I now have 4 dzs within driving distance that I can jump at with some of the best skydivers in the world. But nothing is perfect and we can always make things better. Isn't that really the point? There are a lot of great staff at Skydive San Diego that I feel extremely safe jumping with. They are "heads up" skydivers and I've known many of them for years. I've learned a lot from them. But all of us can continue to grow and learn - don't you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I find your defensiveness, and post interesting Ron. I never stated the DZ in my post and have nothing against Buzz. He has been nothing but kind to me. As for me trying to promote another DZ, that's garbage and you know it Ron. If you'd like to know which TM I was referring to in my post PM me and I'll be happy to tell you.
Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I find your defensiveness, and post interesting Ron. I never stated the DZ in my post and have nothing against Buzz. He has been nothing but kind to me. As for me trying to promote another DZ, that's garbage and you know it Ron. If you'd like to know which TM I was referring to in my post PM me and I'll be happy to tell you.



Sorry Keith. Just exactly WHICH dz were you referring to, then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Enough already. This is a safety and training forum, not a forum for comparing (or bashing) DZ's. I've known Andy for quite a while now, and he puts safety pretty high on his list. I've known Joe for a long time too, and I know him to be a safe jumper; I have no reason to suspect he won't carry that over into his new DZ.

Barb posted a report of a minor incident that is worth discussion. It is not an attack against a DZ to post what happened, and I hoped that both DZ's and jumpers would take away a lesson on what can happen if you land out on a sunset jump. There were a few misunderstandings in her post (i.e. manifest was closed but there were still people in the building) and Greg posted a correction about that, which is also good - it's better to get the views of the people who were there than to speculate about things no one saw.

But now people seem to be taking sides. Otay people think Barb's post was an attack, and Greg and Buzz seem to be counterattacking. People are posting "bad stuff 'bout Otay" and no doubt the Otay people will post heated defenses. And then people's feelings will get hurt and it will become all about defending someone rather than discussing what was really a pretty minor incident.

Incidents, injuries and fatalities happen on drop zones. They happen at Perris, despite the owners and management going to extraordinary lengths to prevent them. They have happened at Otay. They will happen at Joe's place. I hope people take them as opportunities to learn from mistakes (and that goes for both jumpers and staff) rather than opportunities to slam a DZ. There's been enough of that in San Diego over the past ten years, and there has certainly been enough of that on this board. No good comes out of such fights, and we all lose when they happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
this is good, really good since we are all talking about it now. I agree, my response was in anger and one sided. Unfortunately, I hear a story here, a story there & most not good ones. Therefore, I did have an angry response to barbara's email. Its a build up of alot of incidents. But now I have to defend my comments alittle!


4. Molly’s comments about students getting hurt and no staff going out to help them is simply not true. When molly had her landing accident a few years back, everyone was out there to help, staff and friends both. Andy Witcomb, who is now the GM and S&TA, was there the whole time holding your head.
-----------------
Yes, everyone, staff & non-staff did an awsome job (from the stories I hear since i was knocked out) and my response was not to bash or put down those who helped me including Andy. I don't remember who held my head, or who all was there. That was not my intention at all to 'put' down people that helped me in my post.

What I have seen (or not seen, yes, I am not there as often as I used to be, I jump the most at perris) is some procedures perhaps that could be better or improved since we have moved from Brown field that I have witnessed (ie. students, people landing off)

Now since you have come & the military (and probably when andy took over too-I don't know the whole timeline) procedures/mgmt have improved big time! The plane turns, their is more staff around period, manifest is efficient & nice, etc. Its been really cool, there fore I came down 3 weekends in a row- I saw how it was different/good changes so I came back. I got to talk to Andy briefly too and it sounded like everything was really coming around.

However, I think there is some room for improvement, thats all. Hearing 'another story' frustrated me.

----------
The fact that Molly has never seen a staff member help an injured student is because she rarely jumps at the DZ and even more rarely would see an injury.
----------
Yes, I don't very often here at otay anymore because I did/do have concerns about safety and procedures. Unfortunately those concerns comes from those'stories' again from other skydivers and not all witnessed by me.

5. Molly’s comments that no safety procedures are in place again shows her lack of knowledge and quite bluntly, her ignorance. I would ask Molly and Barbara when the last time was she asked to speak to the manager or S&TA about these issues. I can answer that she has not. She would rather flame away on this thread than find out the truth since the truth is not what she wants to hear.

Ok, fair enough. I was angry when I wrote my response and I have not sought out staff over some incidents I have heard about. Ok, you have safety procedures. However though, it appears you don't monitor those safety procedures close enough? Or maybe they are not the best procedures since you did get the wrong information on how many jumpers landed off on the tracking dive?

6. As for Molly’s comments about a Big meeting and new safety rules after her accident, no amount of rules and meetings will prevent experienced jumpers from being stupid and hooking themselves into the ground. Even DZ’s with no hook turn policies see hook turn accidents as many jumpers simply ignore them.
------------------
I was told there was a meeting to improve safety at Otay(I was in a coma so I don't know the details). Comments from other jumpers soon after my accident & when I started to skydive again (1 yr later) it appeared that meeting did not go far/not alot of changes came about. (This is all before you came to work at otay) I agree you cannot prevent skydivers from being stupid and hooking it in & getting hurt.


.
8. Barbara, when was the last time you asked who the S&TA was? It is Andy Witcomb by the way, the GM. Molly say’s “I think I’ve asked”? Come on Molly, you think? There are also two other S&TA’s that work on the military side available. If you truly are concerned about safety and not knowing, then why post it in this forum instead of asking? You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Which would be more productive?

----------------
Ok I guess I need to be more specific in my question/response. I have asked experienced jumpers who are around me jumping too 'who is the S&TA?' No, I have not asked any of the staff when I have been there & on the weekends, I don't think the military staff has been around much to ask?(they work during the week? Right?). This thread prompted me to ask again, so I did.

------------
Now, some additional background information. Barbara and Molly are best friends and are attempting to slander a good DZ by one posting and the other responding and adding to the flame. They are also upset that their friend Curt Swanson is no longer doing Freefly Load Organizing at the DZ. Curt did informal Freefly load organizing at the DZ and did a good job of it. However, we were looking for a permanent Freefly organizer. We were approached by both Curt and Mike Ortiz, world champion freeflyer. We ultimately chose to use Mike Ortiz but left open the possibility of Curt assisting. Curt chose not to accept this and went to Perris. We have since increased Mike’s workload on our Navy Contract reducing the amount of time he has available. So we brought in Icarus Team Evolution. They load organize for both freeflying and canopy control and have a proven track record for producing better and safer jumpers. Curt now finds himself at Skydive SoCal on Brown Field. For the record, I wish Skydive SoCal and Curt all the best and am happy they are succeeding and doing well.
----------------------


Ok, whoa. Yes, Barbara & I are very good freinds. I didn't even think of Curt & his situation until you posted it. I dont' know alot about that situation & this thread is not about that. Barbara & I are not out to slander Skydive San Diego. I had 3 awsome weekends in a row there (didn't go the last 2 since I am rehabing from hardware removal) & was really excited. A DZ only 30 min away from me & its really coming together. I also did a jump including Brett from team Evolution & it was a great skydive.

Again, my concerns are for safety too.
-----------------------

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbra and Bill,
Well put by both of you! We now have more information and this should be on peoples minds when they jump. Perhaps more jumpers will ask the DZO or S&TA what the procedures are. And the more people aware of the procedures, the more input and refining that can take place.

Thanks.


Buzz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Molly,
I find it very hard to believe YOU wrote this. When you hooked turned into the ground and almost killed yourself, you were surrounded by staff members. Andy Witcomb sat there holding your bloody head in his hands the whole time.
---------------

oh dear this is getting bad. These issues have been brought up for safety & safety alone.

I got angry, I posted and yeah I am sorry, I thought alot about my accident. Thus my anger over what happened to Barbara- what if that was me 3 yrs ago?

Please just to clarify:

I don't hook turn. Don't wanna now, never did. Since I don't remember anything I have to go on what others tell me. It was a long spot, I made it back but for some reason I turned to low to land into the wind. I don't know why I did, Ive done down wind landings before.

I don't think I would call that a hook turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok I am a slowww typer. I got behind on the posts.

I agree w/ you Buzz- well said Barbara & Bill.

My intention was never to anger or bash skydive san diego & the staff. We all care about safety & I think alot of good will come out of this post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Molly,
You were not the only one who posted emotionally and I apologize if I went too far. I consider all of you, Molly, Barbara and Kieth all my friends and I know the staff at Skydive San Diego will do everything possible to make it one of the safest and most fun places to jump.

How about a 10 way with you three and the some of the staff. I will even pay!!

Blue Skies!


Buzz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

How about a 10 way with you three and the some of the staff. I will even pay!!



You're on Buzz. I think that's a Great idea. I just have one concern; you're not putting me rear float and waiving to me as I leave on go are you? ;)
Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HI Buzz

Thanks for your response, I know we all don't mean to say things at times esp. when emotions run high. We both did it.

We all care about safety & we are all learning from this. I can already think of many questions to ask any new DZ i may visit now right away including skydive SO CAL when I do eventually visit them. (safety procedures, making sure I introduce myself to staff when I see them where I may not have before)

I would love to do a 10 way with us & staff! I haven't met some of the staff when I have been down there & I think one of the reasons is we all pack in different areas & 2) I haven't walked up & said hi to someone I don't know well, I just say 'hi etc' to the staff I do know. This would be a great interaction w/ staff & experienced jumpers. I do miss those interactions we used to have.

ok, but you gotta wait on the 10 way :) I am on crutches for at least another 2 wks. Hopefully I will get the ok then.

Molly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0