Landing small reserves - unfamiliarity with F-111 nowadays?

[pchapman 261]

I found an interesting statement in the FAQ for PD's new Horizon wingsuit canopy, a rectangular canopy, which is largely low bulk fabric -- similar to F-111 style fabric in flight characteristics -- but with some ZP in "all the right places" PD says. Presumably the front top skin.

Now it is a main canopy and not a reserve, but will be somewhat similar aerodynamically.

PD says:

Quote

Because the characteristics of this fabric are different from traditional ZP, it demands more experienced canopy pilots to get consistently comfortable landings (when compared to an all ZP canopy in a similar size and design). For this reason, we recommend that you have at least 50 jumps on a canopy landing accurately and comfortably on your feet) that is approximately two (2) sizes SMALLER than the Horizon you plan to use for wingsuiting.

That suggests they see that people aren't generally as able to land blocky F-111 style canopies as in the old days. (CRW jumpers may be an exception, as their ZP canopies can often be more of a handful to land gracefully.)

It isn't as if they think the Horizon lands poorly. In the Flight Characteristics document, they say it does plane out easily for nice landings. Yet they also warn that great landings are not automatic, that one has to have the right skill and technique to achieve good landings.

It makes me wonder how well jumpers nowdays will deal with highly loaded reserves.

It isn't a HUGE problem, after all, most people do just fine with their occasional reserve landing. Highly experienced jumpers who have small reserves may not have much F-111 experience either, but are more likely to be already familiar with a range of canopies, descent rates, and wing loadings. So perhaps a small F-111 canopy is something they can handle.

A few years back an intermediate jumper acquaintance had a really bad landing on his reserve, but was saved by spring mud. While it was a quality PD reserve, it was a size or two down from his main so it was a higher wing loading than he was used to. It seems that his experience with ZP canopies misled him as to what to expect. It seems he started moving the brakes while quite high, intending to start a gradual plane out like on a normal jump. He didn't realize this was the wrong thing for a reserve, and soon found himself still high off the ground without hardly any flare left.

In light of an example like that, the new PD statement is particularly interesting. Some of us were around in F-111 days but many jumpers are not used to the idea of having to make sharp, low altitude flares required in many cases.

(I don't much care what size reserve other jumpers wear on their backs, but when I'm teaching a canopy course I start to care a little more about people's choices and giving them good advice on what to watch out for under canopy. So I thought the topic interesting.)

[Lawndarter 3]

Interesting read. I've been wondering about this - I've got a PD Reserve 193, but I'm jumping a ZP.exe 215 right now (basically a Sabre 1 clone) - quite a difference I'm sure - I'm only just starting to learn the difference between F-111 type canopies and ZP - I was originally jumping a Silhouette 230 which I think is not fully ZP - it just needed a good fast single stage flare to land - when I went to the ZP.exe loads of really ugly landings and a canopy course enlightened me on two-stage flares.

I'm thinking that the next boogie I'm at that PD brings demos to I might have the same canopy I have as my reserve hooked up as a main so I can open it high and get more of a feel for how it flies - I feel like I don't want to have to learn how it flares after a chop with not much room!

[mxk 1]

I don't think it would have been the canopy for me either way, but I was hoping to at least demo the Horizon. Then I found out that 190 is the biggest size... I don't get it. With all the emphasis they are putting on going "2 sizes up," they are basically saying that this is a canopy for those who are currently wingsuiting with a 150 or smaller main, and therefore have a similarly sized all F-111 reserve. So if the two sizes larger Horizon with ZP nose and center cell is a bit tricky to land, how will the reserve ride go?

I think the fact that they didn't feel comfortable releasing Horizon 210+ either says something about its flight characteristics or longevity. It's also interesting to note the differences in the maximum weight between the Horizon and similarly sized Optimum, especially for the smaller sizes (168 vs 254 lbs for the 120).

This all reminds me that I've been meaning to demo my Optimum 235 as a main because I have zero experience with F-111. Curious to see how the flare compares with my Spectre 230.

[wasatchrider 0]

mxk

I don't think it would have been the canopy for me either way, but I was hoping to at least demo the Horizon. Then I found out that 190 is the biggest size... I don't get it. With all the emphasis they are putting on going "2 sizes up," they are basically saying that this is a canopy for those who are currently wingsuiting with a 150 or smaller main, and therefore have a similarly sized all F-111 reserve. So if the two sizes larger Horizon with ZP nose and center cell is a bit tricky to land, how will the reserve ride go?

I think the fact that they didn't feel comfortable releasing Horizon 210+ either says something about its flight characteristics or longevity. It's also interesting to note the differences in the maximum weight between the Horizon and similarly sized Optimum, especially for the smaller sizes (168 vs 254 lbs for the 120).

This all reminds me that I've been meaning to demo my Optimum 235 as a main because I have zero experience with F-111. Curious to see how the flare compares with my Spectre 230.

Or they figure people getting wing suit specific wings have enough experience and jumps that most of them are not jumping bigger canopies

BASE 1519

[justme12001 0]

I had not heard of this canopy before this thread, so I looked it up.

From the PD Horizon page:
Best of all, the Horizon gives you the ability to upsize as many as two full sizes compared to a non-crossbraced ZP canopy main, meaning you can fit a larger canopy in your existing rig for wingsuit jumps. No need for a new container!

So I don't think they are saying you NEED to upsize two sizes to jump it. I think what they are saying, is since it is low bulk, you CAN upsize two sizes and still use the same rig you are using with your "normal" canopy.

Watching the promo video, the canopy seems to fly and land well. The pilots were using a two stage flare to land, instead of the one stage you normally see with F-111 canopies.

[bgrozev 2]

justme12001

I had not heard of this canopy before this thread, so I looked it up.

From the PD Horizon page:
Best of all, the Horizon gives you the ability to upsize as many as two full sizes compared to a non-crossbraced ZP canopy main, meaning you can fit a larger canopy in your existing rig for wingsuit jumps. No need for a new container!

So I don't think they are saying you NEED to upsize two sizes to jump it. I think what they are saying, is since it is low bulk, you CAN upsize two sizes and still use the same rig you are using with your "normal" canopy.

Watching the promo video, the canopy seems to fly and land well. The pilots were using a two stage flare to land, instead of the one stage you normally see with F-111 canopies.

The relevant part of referenced document:

Quote

[w]e recommend that you have at least 50 jumps o
n a canopy (landing accurately and comfortably on your feet) that is approximately two (2) sizes SMALLER than the Horizon you plan to use for wingsuiting.

[pchapman 261]

justme12001

Watching the promo video, the canopy seems to fly and land well. The pilots were using a two stage flare to land, instead of the one stage you normally see with F-111 canopies.

That even strengthens the point they make about the Horizon, that I'm applying to reserves.

Blocky non-ZP canopies have gotten better at landing at higher loadings:

- Really old reserve designs are poor for landing at high loadings (eg, MicroRaven).
- More modern reserve designs (eg PD-R, Smart) are better
- A very new design like the PD Optimum is easier yet to land, making the reserve slightly less reserve-like compared to what came before
- Then along comes the Horizon, which is also a rectangular canopy a bit like a reserve -- but what with their Optimum experience, and using some ZP in important spots, it should land even better. Different missions, different designs, but for now I'll guess they didn't make the landings worse. The max weights for the Optimum and Horizon are similar if one looks at the tables. (When one looks at the max PD recommends for the Optimum for an Experienced jumper, rather than the even higher certification weights.)

And then, for a canopy as modern as the Horizon, they say you should have experience with something a couple sizes smaller before jumping it!

Again, this isn't necessarily some huge revelation, and it must be tough to know how conservative to be when writing manuals. PD might also be more conservative for the Horizon, because it's one thing to have an occasional reserve ride, another to pound out jumps all day on a canopy one wants to last some hundreds of jumps at least.

But it is an intriguing point of view on how canopies unlike our typical main canopies may pose extra challenges.


(In the Optimum Flight Characteristics document, PD is actually much more relaxed. They say one should have 50 jumps on a canopy no more then 15% larger. So basically, they prefer one have one's reserve no more than a size smaller than one's main, if that's the smallest one normally flies.)

(Yes if a wingsuit pilot upsizes 2 sizes in their rig to fly a Horizon, then he has taken care of idea of having experience on something 2 sizes lower.)

[billvon 2,380]

>I think the fact that they didn't feel comfortable releasing Horizon 210+ either says something about
>its flight characteristics or longevity.

Or it is hard to design. You can't just scale a canopy up in all dimensions and have them fly the same.

The Pilots are great canopies down to about the 132 size, then their flare band becomes narrower and narrower and they get squirrley when they are heavily loaded. The original Sabre 1 had a tendency to open harder and harder as you went up in size; it got so bad that PD went to split-stowed brake lines on the larger models. The Raven reserves worked well when loaded to their original specifications. Overload the larger sizes and they still landed OK; overload the Micro Raven 120 and it had a tendency to break legs.

So it may just be a hard canopy to scale up.

[Trafficdiver 8]

Lawndarter

I'm thinking that the next boogie I'm at that PD brings demos to I might have the same canopy I have as my reserve hooked up as a main so I can open it high and get more of a feel for how it flies - I feel like I don't want to have to learn how it flares after a chop with not much room!

I did that on mine a few years ago and I was glad I did. I demoed a Optimum 176 at Z Hills to see what it was like. My first few toggle turns I realized it takes much more input than my Sabre 2 150 did. Much more than I would have assumed.

I realized that if I was low and had one chance to make it to a safe LZ i wouldn't have if I had not demoed and understood the canopy beforehand.

Of course my next chop I was in the saddle at 1900' and had plenty of space, but still.