"pimped" Caravan

[riggerrob 558]

Cessna Caravans may be popular jump planes, but let's face it, they were never the fastest climbers.
Now a Canadian company is test-flying a "pimped" Caravan with a 751 horsepower Walter turbine engine and extensive wing modifications.
Dave Barron - President of AOG Air Support in Kelowna, BC, Canada - said that he chose the 751 Walter turbine engine primarily because it was available to $200,000 less than the Pratt & Whitney engine normally installed by Cessna.
However, Barron says that the extra few horsepower contribute little to the Hot Wings Caravan's vastly improved short field performance. Just to prove that, AOG plans to offer four different engines (including P&W as well as Garret).
Winglets are the most obvious difference with the AOG/Hot Wings conversion, that also includes extensions, stall fences and leading edge cuffs. Barron claims that Cessna optimized the Caravan wing for cruise by using the same airfoil section as its Citation business jet. The leading edge cuff vastly improves take off performance - as little as 700 feet.
All of Barron's tricks to improve take off performance for bush pilots will also help jump pilots by doubling or even tripling their rate of climb.

Barron STOL - wing modification - kits are popular with DeHavilland Beaver and Otter pilots. AOG has extensive experience overhauling Beavers and Otters from the data panel up.

[beezyshaw 0]

Mods like you describe have obvious benefit to the true bush pilot, but I suppose any dz operation would have to run the numbers very carefully to make an analysis of how long the payback period would be. Of course if a Caravan dz can't get enough loads flown in a day to satisfy their customer base, and now are faced with another aircraft purchase to keep up with demand, then of course doubling your lift capacity without adding another bird would seem to make a whole lot of sense. But again it comes back to running the numbers to see which is more cost effective.
Rob, do you have a ball-park estimate of costs involved in "pimping" a Caravan? Can you point to a website that might have more information about this?

[mnealtx 0]

http://www.aogair.com/products/index.html

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AndyMan 7]

Better pictures here: http://www.aogair.com/products/caravan_b.html

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

http://www.aogair.com/products/index.html

Looked at the Caravan pictures and I have what is probably a "Stupid Question"

In the first few pictures there is a big lumpy thing attached to the underside of the aircraft, but the big lumpy thing is not in the subsequent pictures.

What is the "big lumpy thing"?

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[nicknitro71 0]

It's a cargo bin.

http://caravan.cessna.com/

If I had the money I'd get a Porter

Memento Audere Semper

903

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Looked at the Caravan pictures and I have what is probably a "Stupid Question"

In the first few pictures there is a big lumpy thing attached to the underside of the aircraft, but the big lumpy thing is not in the subsequent pictures.

What is the "big lumpy thing"?

That big lumpy thing is another cargo hold, those are called Cargo Master Caravans, which is a variation of the larger Grand Caravan. You'll see those on a lot of Grand Caravans...unless you're jumping out of ours, we don't have it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Looked at the Caravan pictures and I have what is probably a "Stupid Question"

In the first few pictures there is a big lumpy thing attached to the underside of the aircraft, but the big lumpy thing is not in the subsequent pictures.

What is the "big lumpy thing"?

That big lumpy thing is another cargo hold, those are called Cargo Master Caravans, which is a variation of the larger Grand Caravan. You'll see those on a lot of Grand Caravans...unless you're jumping out of ours, we don't have it.

Bummer....bomb bay jump!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Bummer....bomb bay jump!!

After enjoying the incredible climb rate that this G. Caravan has, then you won't care, those cargo bays are very heavy (even though they don't have a bomb door).

That's what gets me, all the Caravans I've jumped and the Grand Caravan that Aggieland has all climbed really well, even when loaded down with jumpers. I don't see what the benifit would be to spend all of those hundreds of thousands of dollars to modify a plane that doesn't really need to be modified for skydiving needs. Although it would be awfully neat to have a Carvan like that, I don't think it would be even remotely cost effective. Its kind of like taking a 182 and putting a 300hp fuel enjected engine, wing extensions, speed brakes and a pilot the size of a jockey to save weight. Sure that 182 would climb like a bat out of hell, but would it be cost effective for a 182 DZ? Not really.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[FrogNog 1]

I think the people who say the Caravan "doesn't climb well" are comparing it to some other turbines. A Twin Otter with -37s does climb a lot faster.

I personally like the relaxed pace of the Caravan, compared to hanging on sideways in a Super Otter.

I don't know if I believe the ability of this pimpination to "double or triple" the climb rate of the Caravan. One of our pilots says our Caravan climbs at something like 700 fpm ballpark average. OK, doubling that to 1,400 fpm is within the realm of believability, but tripling it to 2,100 fpm I find hard to believe.

But I'm just a jumper, so I guess I would have to wait and see and jump.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

One of our pilots says our Caravan climbs at something like 700 fpm ballpark average. OK, doubling that to 1,400 fpm is within the realm of believability

According to my Neptune, our Grand Carvan climbs around 1100fpm average. Then again, its just my Neptune. The pilot says that he's averaging .2 tact time per load to 13.5k, although he says he could bring it down faster, but he doesn't want to put that load on the AC.

Doubling the climb rate or tripling it would make life very very uncomfortable.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TrickyDicky 0]

I was on a Twin turbine dornier with 10 onboard (cleared for 15). According to my friend's neptune, up to 10k we were doing over 2000fpm, I think it was about 2200.
it started dropping off to 1800fpm at the end though. But "15k" (I swear the air felt like 16k ) in 10 mins was nice.

The owner has 3 of these, and a single turbine Finnist (like a porter with the door on the left) with the same engine as the dorners. That can still do about 1000 fpm with 10 on board.

That is some pimping

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

According to my Neptune, our Grand Carvan climbs around 1100fpm average. Then again, its just my Neptune. The pilot says that he's averaging .2 tact time per load to 13.5k, although he says he could bring it down faster, but he doesn't want to put that load on the AC.

Caravan pilots from both Skydiving Greensburg and Archway Skydiving indicate that this isn't the case for a 13.5K foot climb with the upgraded engines. Maxing out climb and descent puts up about 3 loads a tac hour. Either you have a considerably high field altitude or something doesn't appear to be adding up. Even our new short caravan with the upgraded engines does climb that well. None the less, it certainly isn't a *slow* climber, so I have no complaints with the caravan. I would certainly prefer an otter, but I'll take it over a King Air or PAC anyday!

Not to say I don't believe you, but I would be curious for details as they are a bit surprising.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[Hooknswoop 19]

.2 tach time is 12 minutes. At 1000 fpm, that is 13.5 minutes to 13,500 ft. He must mean it takes average .2 to altitude per load, not counting the descent.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

Well, technically .2 "tach time" isn't necessarily 12 minutes. It'd be 12 minutes at cruise power. Less at climb power. But I assume he just means flight time, or like you said, time to climb, since I'm not sure turbines even have tachometers...

And how's a constant speed prop factor into tach time in a piston? Complicated stuff....

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Well, technically .2 "tach time" isn't necessarily 12 minutes. It'd be 12 minutes at cruise power. Less at climb power. But I assume he just means flight time, or like you said, time to climb, since I'm not sure turbines even have tachometers...

Hell if I know for sure, I'm not a pilot, I just play one on TV.

All I know from my personal knowledge is that we get to 13.5k faster then a decent number of Otters I've been on (the exception being SD AZ's otters) and what I observe on the planes climb rate dial (in the 182) and/or on my Neptune. As for the .2, that's just what our pilot has told me, I took it for face value and it would appear I shouldn't have, that there are other factors involved.

Dave,

Would you mind explaining how a turbine counts "tact time," what it intales and what it means for the average jumper?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Well, technically .2 "tach time" isn't necessarily 12 minutes. It'd be 12 minutes at cruise power. Less at climb power. But I assume he just means flight time, or like you said, time to climb, since I'm not sure turbines even have tachometers...

And how's a constant speed prop factor into tach time in a piston? Complicated stuff....

I think a Caravan's tachometer starts running at 30 knots. It isn't the same as a piston tach though where it can be fooled if i understand it correctly.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

tach time is the time shown on the tachometer, which is actually measuring how many revolutions the engine makes, on a piston engine. The tachometer is used to measure sort of realistically how much wear is being put on the engine during normal use, not just how long it's running for. Hobbs time comes from a hobbs meter. It starts recording actual time as soon as there is oil pressure (in Cessnas, anyway). Hobbs time is actual engine running time. Tach time slows down when the engine is at idle and speeds up when the engine is at full power. So if you idle a Cessna's engine for an hour, you'll get somewhat less than an hour of tach time and exactly an hour of hobbs time. Jump planes run at high power all the way up... so an actual 30 minute climb in a cessna might register over 30 minutes of tach time. When you rent a plane, some places rent by tach time, others by hobbs time. Usually they charge for the hobbs time used directly, or 1.3 times the tach time (to pay extra for all tha time you spend at idle and also extra for running at higher than necessary power).

What's this have to do with skydiving or pimped caravans? Pretty much nothing...

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, I understand that, tacts and such and how they work on piston engines (cars, etc), but is it the same sort of system on a Turbine?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pilotdave 0]

Err, I meant tachometers that measure time. Turbines have gauges to measure gas generator and power turbine speeds (N1 and N2), but I don't think they use that to generate a "tach time."

Dave

[akjmpplt 0]

Quote

All of Barron's tricks to improve take off performance for bush pilots will also help jump pilots by doubling or even tripling their rate of climb.

Probably not. Climb is a function of excess power. The STOL mods will help it get off the ground quicker but will not double or triple the climb...unless these guys have discoved some new magic. The winglets should help a little since they reduce some drag...reduced drag means less power needed so more available for the climb. Of course, the winglets add weight, more weight means the wing has to make more lift, making lift creates drag....hmmmmm. Back where we started.

The best way to improve the climb is to throw the fat bastards off the load.

SmugMug

[Amazon 7]

Quote

What is the "big lumpy thing"?

Its going to have a little Cessna

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

Quote

What is the "big lumpy thing"?

Its going to have a little Cessna

Please tell me that the daddy is a skyvan. I can see it now....a single pilot tailgate that doesn't make you go deaf!

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[AndyMan 7]

I've noticed my Neptune indicates a climb rate 300-400 fps faster than either my Suunto watch and the plane's FSI. That may be whats going on. When my Suunto says 800, my Neptune will show 1100.

My home DZ is flying a Grand Caravan for the next few weeks, and its' showing mostly 800-900 fpm.

Our Caravan does 25 minute cycles while our -27 Otter does 18. Those seven minutes adds up to about five more loads on a busy weekend.

(btw - thanks for the tip on the neptune. very cool under canopy)

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

If I had the money I'd get a Porter

i LOVE porters, but (from talking to the pilots) since they are a tail dragger, they are MUCH harder and more tiring to fly day after day

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.