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Rex
Thanks for the input. Coming from the former owner of the plane carries a lot of weight. And a jumper as well. Do you get to jump much these days? Have you been to Kapowsin or Molalla?
Let's go over your reply, point by point. And correct me if I’m wrong...
Our airport is 375 feet above the ocean and we are on the other side of the mountains. Much cooler, denser air.
A skydive from 12K lasts, what 60 seconds or so? What would going to 13k add? 5 or 8 seconds? Shit, why quibble over 8 seconds. They only have to stay on the bull for 8 seconds, right! As a skydiver, you should know that 5 or 8 seconds is a lot. But that's not even the point, is it Rex. What we're talking about is giving the jumpers what they want, versus how much it will cost the drop zone. It's a trade off and a gamble but just using simple numbers doesn't do anything for the big picture. And I'm not convinced that your numbers are right, or even if you have them.
I know the difference between an Otter and a Turbine 207. Don't them Otters have two motors? And I one time seen twenty-four of them sky-jumpers git in one once.
This Turbine 207 is quieter, more comfortable and gets more jumpers higher and faster. Instead of wondering if they might, just maybe, get a four way going to 10 grand if they wait around long enough, they are arguing over whether or not they got 4 or 5 points on that seven way. It's a wonderful airplane and we are lucky and fortunate to have it available. I want to keep it around. We need to use it as best we can for the jumpers, present and hopefully future, as well as the owners.
We are lucky to have a local get us this wonderful aircraft. As a matter of fact, I know these people very well. One of 'em used to work for me when I owned this drop zone. We're brothers and he loves skydiving as much as I do (well, maybe not that much) or he wouldn't have taken the steps to get it. Business wise, he was doing more than just fine with two 182's. He has taken a real gamble with this turbine and now that we have it, we cannot go back. This is his legacy at our drop zone.
We are trying to entice more jumpers to Toledo and we want them to stay longer, make more jumps and spend more money. And of course, have more fun. Isn't that the point?
We celebrate the Turbine 207 every weekend. Even when it's raining. As a matter of fact, I feel a bonfire coming on this weekend. I'll be there. Come on down and I'll buy you a beer, Rex.
We do pay for the extra altitude (that we sometimes don't get). Our jump rates are as high or higher than anyone else’s in the region.
I usually just drive to Central California or the coast. There are plenty of great DZ's there. It's the big leagues, you know.
You spelled Perris wrong. But it is wonderful in the fall.
Thanks for the input. Coming from the former owner of the plane carries a lot of weight. And a jumper as well. Do you get to jump much these days? Have you been to Kapowsin or Molalla?
Let's go over your reply, point by point. And correct me if I’m wrong...
Our airport is 375 feet above the ocean and we are on the other side of the mountains. Much cooler, denser air.
A skydive from 12K lasts, what 60 seconds or so? What would going to 13k add? 5 or 8 seconds? Shit, why quibble over 8 seconds. They only have to stay on the bull for 8 seconds, right! As a skydiver, you should know that 5 or 8 seconds is a lot. But that's not even the point, is it Rex. What we're talking about is giving the jumpers what they want, versus how much it will cost the drop zone. It's a trade off and a gamble but just using simple numbers doesn't do anything for the big picture. And I'm not convinced that your numbers are right, or even if you have them.
I know the difference between an Otter and a Turbine 207. Don't them Otters have two motors? And I one time seen twenty-four of them sky-jumpers git in one once.
This Turbine 207 is quieter, more comfortable and gets more jumpers higher and faster. Instead of wondering if they might, just maybe, get a four way going to 10 grand if they wait around long enough, they are arguing over whether or not they got 4 or 5 points on that seven way. It's a wonderful airplane and we are lucky and fortunate to have it available. I want to keep it around. We need to use it as best we can for the jumpers, present and hopefully future, as well as the owners.
We are lucky to have a local get us this wonderful aircraft. As a matter of fact, I know these people very well. One of 'em used to work for me when I owned this drop zone. We're brothers and he loves skydiving as much as I do (well, maybe not that much) or he wouldn't have taken the steps to get it. Business wise, he was doing more than just fine with two 182's. He has taken a real gamble with this turbine and now that we have it, we cannot go back. This is his legacy at our drop zone.
We are trying to entice more jumpers to Toledo and we want them to stay longer, make more jumps and spend more money. And of course, have more fun. Isn't that the point?
We celebrate the Turbine 207 every weekend. Even when it's raining. As a matter of fact, I feel a bonfire coming on this weekend. I'll be there. Come on down and I'll buy you a beer, Rex.
We do pay for the extra altitude (that we sometimes don't get). Our jump rates are as high or higher than anyone else’s in the region.
I usually just drive to Central California or the coast. There are plenty of great DZ's there. It's the big leagues, you know.
You spelled Perris wrong. But it is wonderful in the fall.
"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"
Hey Red!
Check out Jarrett's post in the General Skydiving section.
That's you, bro!
Check out Jarrett's post in the General Skydiving section.
That's you, bro!
"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"
Rex
As a followup to the issues that we have been discussing on this thread, I have been timing a few loads in the turbine, here and there.
TIMED LOAD ONE: 18-1/2 minutes to 12,500 with a full load (seven jumpers plus pilot). One pass.
TIMED LOAD TWO: 18 minutes to 12,000 with a full load. One pass. Warmer day.
TIMED LOAD THREE: 17 minutes to 11,500. Six jumpers. One pass. DZO flying.
I timed these loads from 'wheels up' to the call for the door. Do they seem to support my position?
Brett
As a followup to the issues that we have been discussing on this thread, I have been timing a few loads in the turbine, here and there.
TIMED LOAD ONE: 18-1/2 minutes to 12,500 with a full load (seven jumpers plus pilot). One pass.
TIMED LOAD TWO: 18 minutes to 12,000 with a full load. One pass. Warmer day.
TIMED LOAD THREE: 17 minutes to 11,500. Six jumpers. One pass. DZO flying.
I timed these loads from 'wheels up' to the call for the door. Do they seem to support my position?
Brett
"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"
Where I currently work we put tandems out at 10K if there are no paying fun jumpers on the lift and at 12K if there are. Tandems get out last as it is not such a big deal if they get a long spot and they also open higher. Almost all of them are first timers and don't know if they went from 7 or 30K. It works well and saves time as even though you would be lighter if tandems got out at 10 it would add on all the time saved in a faster climb by running in twice. With most turbines it is only the time in the air that goes towards 100 hour inspections so it is not that expensive to have them waiting on the ground for a few minuites, the 207 may not be like that as it is a converted piston .
riggerrob 630
Consider hot-cold cycles on turbine engines.
My boss says that it is cheaper for him to idle his King Air on the ground for 5 minutes than it is to shut down, then re-start ... fuel being cheaper than steel.
Also remember that cautious pilots like to wait up to 20 minutes for turbine engines to cool before attempting a re-light. The mandatory inspection after a hot-start is prohibitively expensive.
If a pilot is not being cautious with your many hundred thousand dollar turbine engine, fire him!
My boss says that it is cheaper for him to idle his King Air on the ground for 5 minutes than it is to shut down, then re-start ... fuel being cheaper than steel.
Also remember that cautious pilots like to wait up to 20 minutes for turbine engines to cool before attempting a re-light. The mandatory inspection after a hot-start is prohibitively expensive.
If a pilot is not being cautious with your many hundred thousand dollar turbine engine, fire him!
I know that pt-6 engines require you wait before starting them if you just shut them down but I doub't a 207 has a pt-6 in the front. The engines I use at the moment require the tot to be below 150 before atempting a start but you are permited to spin them on the starter until the tot drops below 150 and then put the fuel in. Obviously not straight away as you would get turbines rubbing and stuff like that but after 10-15 mins it is ok. We try to keep them running as a start does more damage to the engine than a whole days flying and some engine components are limited to number of cycles.
QuoteI know that pt-6 engines require you wait before starting them if you just shut them down but I doub't a 207 has a pt-6 in the front. The engines I use at the moment require the tot to be below 150 before atempting a start but you are permited to spin them on the starter until the tot drops below 150 and then put the fuel in. Obviously not straight away as you would get turbines rubbing and stuff like that but after 10-15 mins it is ok. We try to keep them running as a start does more damage to the engine than a whole days flying and some engine components are limited to number of cycles.
I asked some mechanics about that 15 minute thing and I was pretty much told it's a myth on PT-6s. As long as you spin it good before putting the fuel to it you're alright. I watched mechanics start, stop, start a PT-6 a few times in a row checking stuff. I asked about the 15 minute cool down and that's when I got my answer.
Now, you certainly don't want to make a habit of shutting down and then restarting 5 minutes later. Comparitively Jet-A is cheap.
If we are talking Garret engines then you need to be concerned about the turbine shaft. Because it is much longer on a Garret than a Pratt it can actually bow after shutting down. That's why you always see Garret pilots hand spinning the props a few times before walking away. That's to induce a bit more cool air after shutdown. After 15 minutes, the shaft bow should be gone and starting is ok.
Don't take my word as Gospel. If you are the owner operator YOU need to make a call to your respective engine manufacturer's place of business and ask these questions. Make sure you get it straight from the horses mouth.
Back some years when I was researching a turbine 206 for a DZ I asked about start cycles. The response was that since the Allyson engine was originally designed for helicopter use it could withstand 2 cycles (starts per hour) and be fine. I was floored as I was expecting to hear something about 1 cycle per two hours of operating. This made this plane very attractive in my book for a small Cessna operation looking to go turbine but not wanting to outrun the packing ability of the regular crowd and go to higher altitude for nearly the same money. That was back in 1996 when I looked into it.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
DD, RR and FS
That's a lotta technical info! If I read and understand it all correctly, and i think I do, then it all supports my position on using our Cessna 207 Turbine correctly. And what I mean by 'correctly' is a compromise between using it efficiently and keeping ALL jumpers happy and coming back for more. Thank you for your input.
That's a lotta technical info! If I read and understand it all correctly, and i think I do, then it all supports my position on using our Cessna 207 Turbine correctly. And what I mean by 'correctly' is a compromise between using it efficiently and keeping ALL jumpers happy and coming back for more. Thank you for your input.
"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"
Hey, right on again, man.
I do want to clarify something: Our jumpers are doing a pretty damn good job of ramping up to the turbine. Way better than I expected. For the most part, they are showing up to the DZ earlier, they get their gear packed sooner, they meet the plane. A lot of our regulars are even getting second rigs.
What I mean by rushing them is when the weather has been shitty all day long and all of a sudden there's a hole and and everyone's all asses and elbows getting going. Next thing you know is we're at the airplane almost literally being pushed through the door (keep in mind, everone on the load is there. Nobody is running to the plane or gearing up) Next thing you know we're at the end of the runway and the door is still open and half the jumpers don't have their seatbelts on yet.
"Hey! Check 'ol Tommy's chest strap over there, will ya"
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